ual-awac......

[cheezflyer]

moron

D Sanchez,

I think this sums up my point! Just be careful, when you displace USAir flying, do you want to be told that your company bought your job? I'm sure the answer is NO. All I am saying is that the Skywest pilots are not to blame. This is a UAL and AWAC management issue. The pay is too close to use as a blame game. Now if Skywest flew at MESA rates, that would be something to talk about. Skywest 50/70 rates are higher than their 70 rates alone. Then add on bonuses, work rules etc, Skywest actually exceed the 90 rates! Let us also take per diem. AWAC is 1.40 and Skywest is 1.60, if you do the math, that works out to be about another $1 per hour of pay. The rates are so close, I wouldn't use pilot pay as the issue here. I would blame the innability of management to adapt from a antiquated business model. But if blaming Skywest for a same rate scenerio is what helps you sleep at night, then let it be. Everyone has an opinion. Once again, I sincerely hope everything works for you at AWAC. You never know what the future holds, this could easily be a blessing in disguise.

And for the record, an ALPA union drive will be starting at Skywest as soon as it can legally happen. I hope that the pilot group sees this as an valuable time to organize...

Yogi

How does a 1.40-1.60=$1.00 more an hour?

 

[BE99chick]

Thanks for all the kind comments about the AWAC pilots.

Yeah, it's going to be tough for us for awhile, but...(and I'm going out on a limb here)...I think it will eventually be OK for us. Just my gut instinct and it's been pretty accurate over the years.

There's been a lot of bashing of different pilot groups on this thread (and I've bashed a few over the years too). But I can tell you this, I've commuted on Mesa, SkyWest, TSA and some majors for a lot of years, and with maybe one or two standout exceptions (both UAL Captains, but I found out during the flight they were both in the middle of a nasty divorce)...everyone has been tremendously kind and nice to me.

Most pilots out there are 100% professional, decent, hardworking folks just trying to get by. This IS the best job in the world, it just happens to be in the SH!TTIEST industry. I knew that when I got into this, so I have no room to b!tch.

I'm not going to be mean to that Mesa guy on the crew bus or that SkyWest Captain based in Denver complaining because he has to commute to California when I'll never see a Denver base. I'm just not...end of story. I'm done with being nasty to other folks because of some perceived injustice. I knew what this industry was all about when I started.

AND, consequently, I'm also not going to vote FOR a crappy wage scale on larger aircraft and let management use me for a doormat. I'll get out before I'll do that because I have something to fall back on. Guess I'm just lucky.

Thanks again all...it's nice to see the kind comments. I'm not insulted by the bad ones, because I understand those too.

 

[crashpad]

(golf clapping, parental smiles, tears of pride...and a leg-lifting oily waiffer from yours truely)

Magnanimus Beechchick!!! That really needed to be said, because prior to this we all thought you schmoozed your way to the bottom on the affirmative action tuna train.
Now, go back to the kiddie table with Spudflinger, CheddarChimp and the tough-guy who wants me to visit his trailer park.

 

[XJslave]

Thanks for all the kind comments about the AWAC pilots.

AND, consequently, I'm also not going to vote FOR a crappy wage scale on larger aircraft and let management use me for a doormat. I'll get out before I'll do that because I have something to fall back on. Guess I'm just lucky.

Thanks again all...it's nice to see the kind comments. I'm not insulted by the bad ones, because I understand those too.

It needs to go much farther than that. Our concessions were based on flying for united. It's time to get our old contract back, with back pay. If the union won't do anything about it. Then It's time the pilots File a class action lawsuit. AWAC made 100 million in profit in the 4 quarters after the concessions, and had 125 million to invest in USair. They didn't need the money from us, it's time to get it back.

 

[BE99chick]

Crashpad...you are so funny!!!!

Love you baby!!!!

 

[crashpad]

Whoa, did'nt see that coming. Just like Emiral, "Bam!"
I feel like a ten pin standing in front of Don Carter (only true cheddar-heads know how disturbing that is).
How do I respond to this? Can I have my testosterone back, please?

 

[Morning Wood]

fam,

A little history is in order here, just for perspective. AWAC was the last airline to gain it's operating certificate prior to deregulation. Back then it was a long and tedious (not to mention political) process. The same process that United, American, Braniff, and Eastern had to go through to get their routes awarded. AWAC operated independently with their own routes until 1984 when they pioneered the code-share process with UAL that has become common in our industry. They were still independently owned and flew under their own colors.

In 1991 ARW was the third largest operator out of ORD behind UAL and AMR. UAL bought ARW for their ORD landing slots and ran the company into bankruptcy. It was broken apart into several pieces, one of which became ACA which is now Independence Air. Another became what now remains of the old Air Wisconsin (18 146's). Meanwhile, UAL took all of the ARW slots and routes and made them their own. They farmed what they didn't want back to ARW and newly formed UFS. ARW was eventually sold to independent investors and merged with Aspen Airways/MAX Air. We then purchased the 70 RJ's we currently have to operate for UAL.

So in fact, UAL flies routes that were once flown by AWAC, not the other way around. UAL/ALPA had the chance to merge ARW and avoid all this so call "bottom feeder" type flying. Instead they chose to implement a scope clause and farm out the RJ size aircraft to contract operators. The genie was out of the bottle.

I agree that everyone makes their own choices about how and when to gain the neccessary experience to move up in this industry. However, what I don't agree with is entire pilot groups willing to sell out in order to provide their management with a competitive edge over a rival airline.

Unfortunately, AWAC has become the latest victim of this process.

Hey jrod....can you tell me some of the details/history of the DASH 8's?
I seem to recall AWAC flying them back in the early 90's and then
they were gone. Before the D328's replaced the UFS flying, what was
AWAC flying?

 

[g159av8tor]

Reference all the above posts...

I'm was happy for the three years I flew in the airlines. I did it all and experienced the roller coaster. I flew "airliners", upgraded to Captain, had a hellava lot of fun and made a few life-long friends.

I'll take my current flying for a Fortune 250 company any day as a career rather than experience all the BS I did in the airlines. It's a tough job on our family and our friends. Why we do it for all that we put up with is beyond me.

Sorry AWAC...tailwinds always.

 

[Morning Wood]

Whoa, did'nt see that coming. Just like Emiral, "Bam!"
I feel like a ten pin standing in front of Don Carter (only true cheddar-heads know how disturbing that is).
How do I respond to this? Can I have my testosterone back, please?

That's funny. Do you remember the Miller Lite commerical Don Carter did
back in the 70's where he tore the top off the beer can like the big
football guys did?

 

[g159av8tor]

R U New???

Let us also take per diem. AWAC is 1.40 and Skywest is 1.60, if you do the math, that works out to be about another $1 per hour of pay. The rates are so close, I wouldn't use pilot pay as the issue here.

Yogi

Yogi,

Are you serious that you include per diem as income? Are you just cheap? Because a buck sixty is nothing to brag about. It's actually really embarrassing and pathetic. You don't even get the government IRS rate. Last time I checked, my employer pays me per diem to eat well and healthy while I'm out of domicile. Your mentality is "regional" at best. I guess I'm paid well enough as a professional pilot not to include per diem in my earnings. I live well and I can afford things and stuff not including my per diem as income. Really, I try to spend it all on the road to eat well. What I don't spend, however, my girlfriend spends on shoes. So, whatever. Congratulations on the buck sixty an hour...tailwinds.

 

[Rogue5]

Yogi,

Are you serious that you include per diem as income? Are you just cheap? Because a buck sixty is nothing to brag about. It's actually really embarrassing and pathetic. You don't even get the government IRS rate. Last time I checked, my employer pays me per diem to eat well and healthy while I'm out of domicile. Your mentality is "regional" at best. I guess I'm paid well enough as a professional pilot not to include per diem in my earnings. I live well and I can afford things and stuff not including my per diem as income. Really, I try to spend it all on the road to eat well. What I don't spend, however, my girlfriend spends on shoes. So, whatever. Congratulations on the buck sixty an hour...tailwinds.

I believe the above comparison was made while evaluating the financial compensation of both airlines, and as such a "regional" mentality is required.

You seem very proud of youself that you have made it to the level of "professional pilot," as opposed to all of us suckers still flying in the regional world. Good for you.

Please feel free to gaze longingly at yourself in the mirror and keep telling yourself how much better you are...

 

[g159av8tor]

Rogue,

I not better, just better off. I've ridden the airline coaster and learned there is much happiness (read QOL) and fulfillment in this profession if you're willing to look for it and risk it. For me anyway...tailwinds.

By the way, do you know if other employees that travel on company business get your "contract" rate or the IRS rate? You will be dissapointed I'm afraid...but you get to fly airplanes!

 

[jrod]

Hey jrod....can you tell me some of the details/history of the DASH 8's?
I seem to recall AWAC flying them back in the early 90's and then
they were gone. Before the D328's replaced the UFS flying, what was
AWAC flying?

I'm not an expert and wasnt' there when it all happened, but my understanding is this. ARW had the 146's, Dash-8's, and ATP's when the split happened. Essentially, ACA got the 8's, UFS took the ATP's and AWAC got the 146's. If memory serves me correctly, ARW went from about 200 pilots to 80. Some pilots went to ACA and a few remain there (i think) and several went to UFS. Most went to the steet. Many of the 328's came from the merger with MAX Air in the late 90's. So, to answer your question, for most of the 90's, ARW consisted of just 18 BAe-146's. All indications are that those will all be retired over the next year.

Just another page in the history of Air Wisconsin.

 

[crashpad]

g159av8tor is so obviously trying to validate his life as a corporate pilot.
We understand that you're trying to define your self worth, but that has very little to do with this board. There is a Corporate board here where you can comiserate and validate with others like yourself, but this board is for 'airline pilots'.

Sorry the airlines did'nt work out for you. You have nothing to be ashamed of. There are countless pilots who did'nt have what it takes to succeed at this level and went on flying to serve in some other part of aviation. It's a vocation to be an airline pilot because of the enormity of responsiblity involved.
You sleep better knowing your girlfriend or mother is traveling on an airline because you know the standard of professionalism that exists at this level cannot be duplicated.

Yes, corporate pilots are often required to imitate the airlines by wearing the uniform with bars, but that's just a pony show for their clients.

The best analysis for you is this:
Airline Pilots are to players in the NFL, as corporate pilots are to Roller Derby.

 

[crashpad]

This is just my opinion...I could be wrong.

 

[CaptBiff]

crashpad

come down from your high horse. pilots are glorifed bus drivers

 

[WhiteCloud]

I guess it's that ability to get along well with others that makes g159av8tor so special.

 

[Afixedwing]

Internal company memo.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank SkyWest, CHQ, Go-Jet, Mesa and all you other bottom feeding undercutting sh!thole airlines that have made this possible. Without you all we could never have gotten to where we are today. You have succeeded in getting rid of one of the last decent jobs at the regional level - but hey you will upgrade that much sooner and be able to go a major! Enjoy your time with UAL and keep up the good work! I hope that you all never have to go through what you are putting us through now. Good luck!

CHQ didn't bid on any of Air Whisky's UAL Flying. Leave us out of it. However, we just lost 15 aircraft with Airways because of you guys.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

US Airways, AmWest deal?



Dawn Gilbertson
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 9, 2005 12:00 AM

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]America West Airlines CEO Doug Parker has repeatedly said the Tempe airline wants to be a player in the expected consolidation of the troubled industry.

One industry analyst said Friday that America West may have bankrupt US Airways in its sights.

JP Morgan airline analyst Jamie Baker said in a report that there is "early speculation" on a proposed America West/US Airways "linkage." He provided no details.

This is not the first time America West's name has come up as a possible partner for the struggling East Coast carrier, but Baker's wording and the fact that he included the speculation in his report seem to suggest it's more than just idle chatter.

America West spokeswoman Elise Eberwein reiterated Parker's comments that a shakeout is inevitable for the industry's long-term survival. But she said that at this point any talk of an America West deal with US Airways is "only speculation," and that the company does not comment on speculation. US Airways did not return calls for comment.

America West made a run at another struggling airline, ATA Airlines, late last year but decided against making a formal bid for the because it couldn't put together a deal that made financial sense. A big obstacle was the cost of acquiring the Indianapolis carrier's planes. ATA ended up in a deal with Southwest.

At the time of the America West-ATA talks, one analyst who was opposed to that deal said a merger with US Airways would make more sense.

A key attraction, observers say, is the marriage of America West's West Coast-heavy operations and US Airways' East Coast emphasis.

Given the industry's fuel price and airfare woes, however, most see more challenges than benefits to any significant deal at this stage.

The most immediate obstacle is money. America West and most other airlines are losing millions right now and need every penny for their operations. In the same report, Baker says America West will face a crash crunch by the end of the year. He said America West, which ended 2004 with unrestricted cash and investments of $306 million, could be down to as low as the $60 million range. It needs to raise a minimum of about $100 million, but Baker added it should be able to do that.

Robert Mann, an airline industry consultant in Port Washington, N.Y., said the economics don't seem right at this point. If anything, a code-sharing deal would seem to make more sense. Under code sharing, airlines link their networks and feed each other passengers. It enables them to increase their business without the added costs of new cities or the hefty expenses of a merger.

Another possible player in any deal could be Phoenix-based Mesa Air Group and its chairman, Jonathan Ornstein. Mesa is best known locally as America West Express, but it also flies as US Airways Express.

In the wake of recent large investments in US Airways by two of its other commuter partners, Mesa has said it is considering an investment in the airline. Mesa has about $300 million in cash.

Despite analyst reports this week suggesting Mesa is no longer a player on that front because of developments involving the other players, Ornstein said Friday the company still is considering ways to help US Airways return to profitability.[/font]
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[100LL... Again!]

This whole idea of 'working together" is just crap.

Look at yourselves. Suppose a new pilot can go work at gojet (when they start) or else Eagle (pretty much stagnant, right?).

Now, if the industry recovers a little, who gets to move up? The guy who is stuck in the right seat of a turboprop for four years (or way more)? Or the guy who upgraded to jet PIC in 1.5 years? I'll give you one guess.

So, in order to satisfy all of your 'ideals' on how we should hold out for good pay, what does that give us? Your undying admiration? Meanwhile, other "bottom-feeder" pilots (redundant phrase, that) are much more viable when things improve because of their better paper qualifications.

What are YOU doing to ensure that those who are trying to hold up your mythical bar actually end up with something to show for it?

Answer: Nothing.

We all have our own interests to look out for, and I will be d-mned before I am going to worry about satisfying the selfish (and illogical) desires of a bunch of people who see me as nothing but a pawn in the bar-holding-up game.

When you have something to offer in return for me giving up advancement opportunities other than your warmest wishes, let's talk. Until then, the race-to-the-bottom whiners can go screw themselves.

 

[pilotpayne]

CHQ didn't bid on any of Air Whisky's UAL Flying. Leave us out of it. However, we just lost 15 aircraft with Airways because of you guys.

Hey don't blame us where are just playing the game....As we all have said we don't want to displace anyone out of the u air system. But yonited started the snowball not awac.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

How does a 1.40-1.60=$1.00 more an hour?

OK Cheez, here it goes: 1.60-1.40=.20 per hr difference X 24 hrs in a day=4.80 per calendar day. So is it safe to assume an average flight pay day to be about 5 hrs. Now we take the 4.80 and divide it by the 5 hr avg day. That comes out to .96 per flight hr. Now I guess you were right, it's approx .96/hr not 1.00. Sorry, I'll use a calculator next time.

Yogi

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Yogi,

Are you serious that you include per diem as income? Are you just cheap? Because a buck sixty is nothing to brag about. It's actually really embarrassing and pathetic. You don't even get the government IRS rate. Last time I checked, my employer pays me per diem to eat well and healthy while I'm out of domicile. Your mentality is "regional" at best. I guess I'm paid well enough as a professional pilot not to include per diem in my earnings. I live well and I can afford things and stuff not including my per diem as income. Really, I try to spend it all on the road to eat well. What I don't spend, however, my girlfriend spends on shoes. So, whatever. Congratulations on the buck sixty an hour...tailwinds.

If you are finished belittling regional pilots, I'd like to defend my position. As previously said by Rogue 5, it is a financial comparison. The comparison was being made about total pilot compensation as a cost to the company, not as income. So please, go back to the corporate board and just hope you don't someday show up at my interview. Your attitude would not work well. We are ALL professionals here, although you may not act like one.

Yogi

PS. let me know how you feel the next time you sit around in an FBO for hours waiting for that corporate exec to finish the meeting and then being treated like the inferior person that you are to him/her. I've been there and done that. Oh, and let me know the next time you refuse to fly, and don't get fired. Hope your beeper is on vibrate, sounds like you'll need it someday...

 

[Morning Wood]

I'm not an expert and wasnt' there when it all happened, but my understanding is this. ARW had the 146's, Dash-8's, and ATP's when the split happened. Essentially, ACA got the 8's, UFS took the ATP's and AWAC got the 146's. If memory serves me correctly, ARW went from about 200 pilots to 80. Some pilots went to ACA and a few remain there (i think) and several went to UFS. Most went to the steet. Many of the 328's came from the merger with MAX Air in the late 90's. So, to answer your question, for most of the 90's, ARW consisted of just 18 BAe-146's. All indications are that those will all be retired over the next year.

Just another page in the history of Air Wisconsin.

Cool...thanks for the info. I can remember seeing ARW Metro's in ORD in
the late 70's and early 80's. Seems like they were parked over by what
are the F gates now, but I don't remember. I also remember seeing
the 146's in CWA in the early 90's before they got painted blue and gray.

 

[theo]

As sad as it sounds 100LL has a good point.
There is really nothing any of the individuals on this
board can do to stop the so called race to the bottom.
It is economics and until the tide turns we will continue
to see a correction to compensation rates. Eventually
an equilibrium will be reached and things will begin to
change and go the other way. I can understand why he
would do what he can to improve his lot in life. In this
environment shouldnt we all stay nimble on our feet and
seize opportunity where it may exist, while waiting for a better day?

 

[WhiteCloud]

As sad as it sounds 100LL has a good point.
There is really nothing any of the individulas on this
board can do to stop the so calle race to the bottom.
It is economicas and until the tide turns we will continue
to see a correction to compensation rates. Eventually
an equilibrium will be reached and things will begin to
change and go the other way. I can understand why he
would do what he can to improve his lot in life. In this
environment shouldnt we all should stay nimble on our feet and
seize opportunity where it may exist, while waiting for a better day?

I agree also. You gotta laugh at ALPA trying to get non members to sacrifice career advancement to save the industry. Holding the line 20 years ago by requiring that all flying by ALPA carrier X will be done by ALPA pilots on the airline X seniority list wasn't done and this is what they got. Sorry guys.