UAL 2 quarter losses bigger than last years

[pipejockey]

It's not cooking the books. Since Eagle has obtained the RJ's they have been nothing but a huge cash drain on AMR.

Actually I am suprised that it was only a 66 Million dollar loss.

So does this mean that American should have taken the CRJ700's? I have always felt that regional affiliates should have been restricted to 50 seats and we wouldn't be seeing the proliferation of the regionals while mainline, where the career positions can be obtained, are shrunk.

 

[NuGuy]

It's not cooking the books. Since Eagle has obtained the RJ's they have been nothing but a huge cash drain on AMR.

Actually I am suprised that it was only a 66 Million dollar loss.

Same at NWA. RJs have been a huge vortex of cash. After the subsidies for fuel and landing fees, not to mention "forgiven" 15 million dollar debts, the ink is pretty red despite the bottom drawer wages.

This doesn't even include midnight "revenue" flights with no passengers because they couldn't find a FA just so they can get their handout from the mothership. Oh yea, NWA has to pick up the tab for putting up the stranded pax for the night as a bonus.

The only things revenue positive at either of the Airlinks are the Saabs.

It's right in the 10k if you want to look it up.

Nu

 

[Gofish]

Interesting perspective...

maybe we should all just merge

 

[Dangerkitty]

Dangerkitty...not picking a fight but...

Seems to me pensions are a huge cash drain on AMR. I don't advocate them going away but the folks over at Eagle work awful hard and for allot less.

No matter how much the Allison 3007's burn per seat, it is hard for me to fathom that they havn't contributed in a favorable way to AMR's bottom line.

Seems to me its just a number shuffle...makeup for the pig

Gofish,

1. Pensions are not a huge drain on AMR right now. The "A" fund that AMR contributes to is as of right now about 75% funded. Much much better than any other legacy carrier. The "B" fund HAS to be contributed to each month. Infact AA and the APA have been lobbying Congress to not do a thing about Pension reform. This is the exact opposite tactic than the other legacy carriers are enganged in. While NWA, DAL, and UAL lobbyists are trying to get Congress to leglislate some type of pension reform, AA is asking them not to. That to me states that the Pension situation is fine at AA.

2. The APA Board of Directors was given a VERY VERY detailed briefing by Michael Boyd on the problems with the RJ's. Luckily it was recorded so that the pilot group could see it as well. To say it was eye opening is an understatement. Like him or not Michael Boyd does his homework and he is right many many more times than he is wrong.

He gave detailed analysis on why the RJ's cannot and will not work in the manner in which Eagle has employed them. He stated that AMR should get rid of everything except the EMB-145 and the CRJ-700. And then have maybe a MAXIMUM of about 100 RJ's total. In most cases the RJ is nothing more than a huge cash hole for AMR. So much so that they have actually cancelled most if not all of their RJ options.

3. Finally this isn't a slam at Eagle or any of their pilots. I was a Regional Pilot for almost 4 years. I know how hard these guys work and how little they are paid. But the fact is Eagle has become something that it was never intended to be. Regional or Commuter airlines were started to provide feed to Mainline from small markets where bigger aircraft could not be justified. Now you can fly almost coast to coast and not see a Mainline aircraft.

Until RJ's are put back into their intended role the cash drain will continue.

I could be wrong but I have seen some very convincing evidence that leads me to realize that I am right.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Interesting perspective...

maybe we should all just merge

I agree 100%. One seniority list will stop ALOT of problems IMO

 

[Dangerkitty]

Same at NWA. RJs have been a huge vortex of cash. After the subsidies for fuel and landing fees, not to mention "forgiven" 15 million dollar debts, the ink is pretty red despite the bottom drawer wages.

This doesn't even include midnight "revenue" flights with no passengers because they couldn't find a FA just so they can get their handout from the mothership. Oh yea, NWA has to pick up the tab for putting up the stranded pax for the night as a bonus.

The only things revenue positive at either of the Airlinks are the Saabs.

It's right in the 10k if you want to look it up.

Nu

I will have to look at the new contract but off the top of my head AA Pilots will fly anything over 50 seats from here on out. The 25 CRJ-700's that Eagle had on order and the other 25 options are grandfathered to Eagle.

AMR and the APA tried to hammer out a deal where AA pilots would fly the CRJ-700 but everyone on property knew that it would never happen. It had to be cost neutral over what the Eagle pilots where flying it at.

The agreement bombed quickly.

 

[Empennage]

You guys -

I have to agree with you about the RJS. A few points here:

1 - There is no revenue stream to support a 50 seat RJ...hardly enough for a 70

2 - With a code share, you have fundamentally lost the ability to control your product, someone else is doing that

3 - The race to the bottom is on and it will only get worse, what is the answer? Major airline MECs must capture any and all flying....doesn't matter whether a 747 or beech 1900. You need the ability to, a - control your product and b - stop the race to the bottom!

 

[Mr.B]

You guys -

I have to agree with you about the RJS. A few points here:

1 - There is no revenue stream to support a 50 seat RJ...hardly enough for a 70

2 - With a code share, you have fundamentally lost the ability to control your product, someone else is doing that

3 - The race to the bottom is on and it will only get worse, what is the answer? Major airline MECs must capture any and all flying....doesn't matter whether a 747 or beech 1900. You need the ability to, a - control your product and b - stop the race to the bottom!

EXCELLENT post. If/when the majors realize this our industry may begin to recover and pay pilots what they deserve. Too many airlines have convinced their pilots that the crap they pay them is "fair" compensation. Thats contributing the race to the bottom.

 

[Gofish]

.....

 

[densoo]

What a surprise

UPDATE 1-United Airlines delays reorganization plan filing
Tue Aug 2, 2005 09:01 AM ET

CHICAGO, Aug 2 (Reuters) - Bankrupt United Airlines, a unit of UAL Corp, on Tuesday said it would delay the filing of its reorganization plan and accompanying documents, a move that also could delay its Chapter 11 exit to next year.

United said earlier this year that it would release the plan around Aug. 1, initiating its exit from Chapter 11. The No. 2 U.S. airline offered no new target date for filing the reorganization plan, saying only that its Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors had requested additional time to review it.

The Elk Grove Village, Illinois-based airline had said it aimed to emerge from bankruptcy in the fall. That target may no longer be achievable.

"It may be later this year or early next," United spokeswoman Jean Medina said.

Medina said the airline agreed to give the creditors more time to review the plan to ensure a smooth exit from bankruptcy. The airline has been operating under Chapter 11 protection since December 2002.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh37199_2005-08-02_13-01-02_n02602247_newsml

 

[Rick James]

UPDATE 1-United Airlines delays reorganization plan filing
Tue Aug 2, 2005 09:01 AM ET

CHICAGO, Aug 2 (Reuters) - Bankrupt United Airlines, a unit of UAL Corp, on Tuesday said it would delay the filing of its reorganization plan and accompanying documents, a move that also could delay its Chapter 11 exit to next year.

United said earlier this year that it would release the plan around Aug. 1, initiating its exit from Chapter 11. The No. 2 U.S. airline offered no new target date for filing the reorganization plan, saying only that its Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors had requested additional time to review it.

The Elk Grove Village, Illinois-based airline had said it aimed to emerge from bankruptcy in the fall. That target may no longer be achievable.

"It may be later this year or early next," United spokeswoman Jean Medina said.

Medina said the airline agreed to give the creditors more time to review the plan to ensure a smooth exit from bankruptcy. The airline has been operating under Chapter 11 protection since December 2002.

What is this Groundhog Day?

 

[densoo]

any strike would be illegal—and "would not be tolerated."

Faces In The News
Tilton's UAL Faces Losses, Global Protests
Greg Levine, 07.28.05, 4:46 PM ET


NEW YORK - The skies could've been a little friendlier on Thursday: UAL (otc: UALAQ - news - people ) posted a sharply wider second-quarter loss—and that's not the end of the bad news for the United Airlines parent today.


The carrier's loss was $1.43 billion, compared with a loss of $247 million in the year-ago period. Yet operating earnings, which exclude certain reorganization charges, rose to $48 million from $7 million a year ago


Led by Chief Executive Glenn Tilton, the firm continued to feel the burn of higher fuel costs, and recorded charges for bumping its pension plans to the U.S. government. And the potential loss or diminishment of those pensions spread gale-force ripples, as United flight attendants staged protests at 17 airports across three continents, from Hong Kong to New York to Paris.


The UAL angst comes as Gerald Grinstein, CEO of fellow legacy Delta Air Lines (nyse: DAL - news - people ), warned that cost cuts may not be enough to stave off bankruptcy. All of which makes it seem even more miraculous that Continental Airlines (nyse: CAL - news - people ) and AMR (nyse: AMR - news - people ) unit American Airlines both turned profits in the second quarter.


Greg Davidowitch, president of the Association of Flight Attendants at United, said in a statement, "Current United management has held its employees and creditors hostage in Chapter 11 for nearly 1,000 days... We want our pensions back, and we want this management team out." In its own statement, Tilton's carrier responded by maintaining that any strike would be illegal—and "would not be tolerated."

 

[Ty Webb]

CHICAGO, Aug 2 (Reuters) - Bankrupt United Airlines, a unit of UAL Corp. (UALAQ.OB: Quote, Profile, Research) , on Tuesday said it would delay the filing of its reorganization plan and accompanying documents, a move that also could delay its Chapter 11 exit to next year.

United said earlier this year that it would release the plan around Aug. 1, initiating its exit from Chapter 11. The No. 2 U.S. airline offered no new target date for filing the reorganization plan, saying only that its Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors had requested additional time to review it.

The Elk Grove Village, Illinois-based airline had said it aimed to emerge from bankruptcy in the fall. That target may no longer be achievable.

"It may be later this year or early next," United spokeswoman Jean Medina said.

Medina said the airline agreed to give the creditors more time to review the plan to ensure a smooth exit from bankruptcy.

The airline has been operating under Chapter 11 protection since December 2002

3 years in bankruptcy . . . . give me a break. UAL management couldn;t run a friggin' Starbucks. Time to pull the plug . . . there is no brain activity present.