UAL 12yr Captain pay

[jonjuan]

Yep to further dilute the koolaid, how about the Pan Am Chief Pilot who said "Congratulations men, you are all going to be Supersonic Transport Pilots."

Yeah right-that aircraft would have gone way junior. The cockpit was TINY.

 

[chase]

Dublin,

Per your request.
Yr
12........206..........144
11........204..........143
10........201..........141
9.........199...........137
8.........197...........136
7.........195...........132
6.........193...........129
5.........190...........124
4.........188...........108
3.........186...........102
2.........184...........92
1.........181............54

Junior most Capt was hired in Jul '01 as I recall. SWA has downgraded approximately 100 CA's to FOs over the last year, not something SWA has done before but was done to level the manning between the two seats.

________________

Dear Scope Out RJ,

As to your comments about SWA, certainly your view is one perspective, you certainly don't disguise your bias against SWA's business model but that is OK....others on here cheer for SWA's demise which would result in the demise of fellow pilots.

However, that model has been dissected by more academicians and experts than any other airline; most have found SWA to be both a successful business using either normal business standards or even the unhealthy standards found in the airline industry.

Since you don't list your expert qualifications I'm hesitant to take your opinion as the last word on the subject over the likes of Wall Street experts, airline analysts and objective observers of the industry. Maybe if you would like to share your credentials, I'd reconsider sharing your view of SWA's limitations and injurious business practices to the industry overall and to the ultimate judge of a company's worth, its customers, the American public.

To the 3780+ pilots identified below who are on furlough I would think that if given a choice and the opportunity (I know some of them did apply and for whatever reason weren't selected) to fly at SWA even with "evil" PFT and substandard wages/retirements, you might find their view a little different.

BTW, we have quite a few of these furloughed pilots and the ones I've talked to haven't shown much interest in going back to their old airline. Must be the koolaid (or steady paycheck) or a myriad of other reasons.

I hate to think of anyone losing their job in these tough economic times. Each of those numbers below represent families, children, spouses who have suffered through the harshest of economic troubles....my prayers are with them as I can not imagine their pain as I have never been furloughed.

Bashing fellow pilots who are employed at either SWA or regional (because of a dislike for scope clauses) or legacy carriers (because they have given away flying to regional carriers) says more about those who spout those thoughts than the intended target.

As stated, I have never lived through a furlough and hope never to....one reason why I chose SWA. I realize more and more how fortunate that choice has been. I wish only the best for other airlines in hopes of bringing their furloughed pilots back to work.

Their's enough brutality in this business without pilots attacking the few companies that are providing steady employment to fellow pilots. Just my $.02.




CAL was showing 147 furloughed. (July 26, 2010)

UAL 1437 furloughed (May 2010)

DAL & HAL showing 0 furloughed

US Air 220+ (July '10)

AA 1890 furloughed (Jun '10)

Alaska 93 furloughed (July '10)



All info from airlinepilotcentral.com

 

[Smoking Man]

It's funny that you took offense to my post. I was just making a comparison. However if you are in the mood to compare apples to oranges, your pay and benefits equation should figure in a 1-5 year furlough at UAL vs a two year upgrade at VA.

I will compare, year 6 Captain at jetblue (me) on an E-190 out earns an A-320 captain at VA.

 

[jonjuan]

I will compare, year 6 Captain at jetblue (me) on an E-190 out earns an A-320 captain at VA.

For now......

 

[jpeace02]

****************************** bag, MR. CL65, you probabaly have not been around the industry long enough to even understand what has happened to it. Its the evil "C" word, CONCESSIONS a result of a BANKRUPTCY, did you know UAL was in it? Don't b&tch if you don't know the history. You need to dig up some info and read how the rates got that low and how they will continue to get lower. The CL65 is part of that problem so is every new start up or Republic types out there.

Come on pal let's be friends. We don't know even know each other, if we did you'd understand that I'm a huge d-bag. As far as the history goes, let's get serious. That was years and many Ted's ago, (people in Chicago still wonder what the hell Ted is when they see it on the faded CTA bus sticker.)
Somehow the new Delta has 12,000 pilots, a failed marketing strategy as well (even worse name Song), more overhead than United, and there contract is still better. Not to mention SWA's contract.
I really hope the UAL/CAL pilots get something good, it's good for all of us. But it's a disgrace right now.

 

[P38JLightning]

The chunk that management took from the pilot group was so large that they can give a small fraction of it back and make it look like a "big raise" and while they are at it, trick the pilots into giving up more scope, or at the very least allowing the current level of job killing insanity. Watch for it.

 

[Full of LUV]

What.....

VA 10yr Capt pay = $133/hour UAL 10 yr Capt pay = $134/hour

Ironically, there aren't 10 yr Capt's at either!

 

[Whaler]

Chase

Classy and well written as always. Delta seems to have an abundance of folks like Scope Out RJ's.

 

[Full of LUV]

Dublin,

Per your request.
Yr
12........206..........144
11........204..........143
10........201..........141
9.........199...........137
8.........197...........136
7.........195...........132
6.........193...........129
5.........190...........124
4.........188...........108
3.........186...........102
2.........184...........92
1.........181............54

Junior most Capt was hired in Jul '01 as I recall. SWA has downgraded approximately 100 CA's to FOs over the last year, not something SWA has done before but was done to level the manning between the two seats.

________________

Dear Scope Out RJ,

As to your comments about SWA, certainly your view is one perspective, you certainly don't disguise your bias against SWA's business model but that is OK....others on here cheer for SWA's demise which would result in the demise of fellow pilots.

However, that model has been dissected by more academicians and experts than any other airline; most have found SWA to be both a successful business using either normal business standards or even the unhealthy standards found in the airline industry.

Since you don't list your expert qualifications I'm hesitant to take your opinion as the last word on the subject over the likes of Wall Street experts, airline analysts and objective observers of the industry. Maybe if you would like to share your credentials, I'd reconsider sharing your view of SWA's limitations and injurious business practices to the industry overall and to the ultimate judge of a company's worth, its customers, the American public.

To the 3780+ pilots identified below who are on furlough I would think that if given a choice and the opportunity (I know some of them did apply and for whatever reason weren't selected) to fly at SWA even with "evil" PFT and substandard wages/retirements, you might find their view a little different.

BTW, we have quite a few of these furloughed pilots and the ones I've talked to haven't shown much interest in going back to their old airline. Must be the koolaid (or steady paycheck) or a myriad of other reasons.

I hate to think of anyone losing their job in these tough economic times. Each of those numbers below represent families, children, spouses who have suffered through the harshest of economic troubles....my prayers are with them as I can not imagine their pain as I have never been furloughed.

Bashing fellow pilots who are employed at either SWA or regional (because of a dislike for scope clauses) or legacy carriers (because they have given away flying to regional carriers) says more about those who spout those thoughts than the intended target.

As stated, I have never lived through a furlough and hope never to....one reason why I chose SWA. I realize more and more how fortunate that choice has been. I wish only the best for other airlines in hopes of bringing their furloughed pilots back to work.

Their's enough brutality in this business without pilots attacking the few companies that are providing steady employment to fellow pilots. Just my $.02.




CAL was showing 147 furloughed. (July 26, 2010)

UAL 1437 furloughed (May 2010)

DAL & HAL showing 0 furloughed

US Air 220+ (July '10)

AA 1890 furloughed (Jun '10)

Alaska 93 furloughed (July '10)



All info from airlinepilotcentral.com

Chase,
Great points except that if it weren't for SWAPA carrying the torch for age 65 for all those years and eventually coercing ALPA and the FAA to go along, how many of those above furloughs would have been mitigated, and how many more pilots would have been hired by SWA due to their movement?
BK's, economic factors, scope issues, industry consolidation all contributed to the furloughs, but SWAPA's age 65 initiative couldn't have come to fruition at a worse time to exacerbate it.
You and a few others seem to express dismay for the furloughs, but for most of the senior pilots, it's a "part of the industry that is to be endured".
No doubt that SWAPA spent the better part of the 80's and 90's with substandard pay, no retirement and no medical past retirement, hence their outstanding success at growth.
I give their mgt kudos for fostering a loyal pilot corps despite those factors during those decades, and they earn those kudos by absorbing extra labor during slow periods instead of following most other mgmts down the furlough path.
At first the legacies though they could compete on the backs of regionals and the backs of their labor. Now that SWAPA has drug the rest of the industry down to them or below hem through competition which lead to BK's and consolidation, we'll see how much difference there is going forward.
SWA runs a pretty conservative operation, always have. They leave millions of potential profit behind when things are good, but don't absorb huge losses when things aren't. They continue to set the market for many of the domestic routes, but increasingly the VA's, JB's, AT's of the domestic system will start to become a thorn in their side.
Best of luck to us all........
LUV

 

[sluggo]

deleted

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Ironically, there aren't 10 yr Capt's at either!

On a similar topic, once upgrading at VA, doesn't the scale reset to year one CA pay again? i.e. 4-year FO upgrades, assumes year 1 CA pay.

 

[jayme]

No. That got fixed about 2 years ago.

 

[Metrojet]

AAA $124/HR for the last 7 years for A320 and no change coming soon.

And the West CA rate is $144 - and the West really tried hard to help the East get parity right? WRONG!

And the Company furloughed out of order right? WRONG!

Metrojet

P.S. - I wouldn't be so sure there is no change coming soon (maybe for the West) but the East is awaiting the deliberation on LOA 93.

 

[chase]

FOL,

Not going to get into a debate over age 60 but your observations do describe one aspect of the change that no doubt has altered the career expectations for many pilots. Just as the unexpected economic downtown froze hiring or high fuel prices have contributed but obviously as you would point out, SWAPA had nothing to do with the latter but much to do with the former....agreed.

Employees don't usually need to apologize for the business model their company has used to be profitable (exceptions for those businesses that are immoral or illegal obviously) so I personally do not feel the need to apologize for SWA's approach to their method for making a profit. I'm quite proud they continue to make decisions based upon the knowledge that bad times can come very quickly and one must be prepared both financially and structurally to respond without the knee jerk reaction of furloughs to solve short or long term failed business decisions.

I would disagree with your assessment of SWAPA "dragging" anyone down....the airlines that reduced wages, furloughed employees and scrapped retirements did because of poor management decisions. It is a shallow argument that employee wages caused these tragedies; just as shallow to reference that SWA led to their demise. Business models are "amoral" in my opinion, management that treats its labor as if they are rubbish are on the other end of the scale IMHO.

As you said, my kudos to SWA's leadership and like you, "full of luv"...

 

[LandGreen]

UAL/CAL pilots: I hope the NEG CMTEE....as a LAST resort, accepts nothing less than SWA pay rationalized on an aircraft seat basis. IOW, SWA pay rates represent the smallest jet at UAL/CAL and therefore the lowest payrate. More seats, more revenue, more pay.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

UAL/CAL pilots: I hope the NEG CMTEE....as a LAST resort, accepts nothing less than SWA pay rationalized on an aircraft seat basis. IOW, SWA pay rates represent the smallest jet at UAL/CAL and therefore the lowest payrate. More seats, more revenue, more pay.

Had this very discussion with two members of NC. They said unlikely, because SWA's lack of many work rules helps compensate for the difference. They are aiming for similar flight deck costs per hour and then some. Rates will not be as big, but work rules will bring your W-2 to a comparable level.

FWIW
yogi

 

[B727Driver]

"Because Swa's lack of many work rules...".

Please give examples of the work rules that are lacking over at SWA.

Smaller per hour rates with equal W-2's equates to extra pay for doing nothing. Not very efficient for long term success, don't mgmt will bite on this one. That type of compensation is reserved for mgmt (the doing nothing part). Thx Yogi.

 

[Scrapdog]

Had this very discussion with two members of NC. They said unlikely, because SWA's lack of many work rules helps compensate for the difference. They are aiming for similar flight deck costs per hour and then some. Rates will not be as big, but work rules will bring your W-2 to a comparable level.

FWIW
yogi

SWA is about the best run airline there is (in regards to effeciency and treating its employees right). I'm not quite sure what crappy work rules you are referring to.

 

[Quiet Flight]

"Because Swa's lack of many work rules...".

I think maybe this means lack of restrictive work rules placed on pilots. i.e. no floor, no cap, etc. There are a few like this but essentially a SWA pilot can fly 100/month and a 1000/year if he wants to. He can also shed his entire schedule if he wants to. just my $.02

 

[IAHERJ]

I think what we are looking for is pay plus our retirement(that's when the company contributes money monthly into your retirement account and you don't have to match anything) and soft pay rules that bring pilots at CAL/UAL flying the smallest aircraft to a W-2 level at or above the 737 guru's over at SWA. We just got our profit sharing back with the transition agreement and throw in better pay for the larger aircraft and you have a contract most will be happy with. Now the scope issue will be the hot issue.