Two Pilots in Command?

[midlifeflyer]

There are 3 ways someone can log PIC. YOu can find this under 61.51 (E)


3) You are designated PIC. You are responsible for the safe operation of the flight. On multi-crew aircraft, this is always the captain. Captain is always responsible for what happens - thus he gets to log PIC, since he is in command.

Be careful of that third one. Read what 61.51(e) says. A non-sole manipulator who is designated PIC may only log PIC in a multi-pilot crew that is =required by the regulations=. Being "designated" PIC is not, all by itself, enough for logging PIC time.

As Avbug said, with this subject, precision is everything.

My FAQ on the subject is at http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2#3

 

[mattpilot]

midlife - didn't i cover that?

** edit: Now its important to note that option 3) is only applicable on aircraft that REQUIRE more than 1 crewmember for the operation being conducted.

Say you are flying in your 172 with your buddy. 172 only requires 1 crew member. Therefor, only one person can log PIC, even if you designate the other person as PIC. The operation (VFR flight) does not require more than 1 crew member. Option 3 would not be applicable.

So how does that work with a safetypilot? Well if you look at 91.109 (b), to do simulated instrument flight (being under the hood), you are required to have a second crew member on board (the safety pilot). Thus, the operation (sim. instrument flight) requires 2 crew members to be on board. In this case, option 3 is applicable.

 

[414Flyer]

Pilots arguing over if a Safety Pilot can log PIC? Wow, thats a new one haha

Didnt someone try and postulate a scenario where there are 4 in a C-172 and each can log PIC?

 

[Metro752]

What if I took the rudder pedals out of the left side of a 172, and the yoke out of the right side of a 172, and slapped an experimental sticker on it?

It would then require two pilots, thus two PICs!

 

[midlifeflyer]

midlife - didn't i cover that?

You did toward the bottom. But you know how it is. Law of primacy. Folks will read your first sentence and not the explanation. Figured a "you're wrong!" at the top of a post gets more attention than an explanation at the bottom.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Didnt someone try and postulate a scenario where there are 4 in a C-172 and each can log PIC?

Yeah, but I can never remember exactly who the 4th is. But I think it goes something like this:

Front seat 1: Pilot A, flying pilot (sole manipulator)
Front seat 2: Pilot B, qualified safety pilot acting as PIC
Back seat 1: CFI A - A CFI-IA (not a II) giving "non-countable" instrument instruction to Pilot A
Back seat 2: CFI B - A CFII giving in-flight training to CFI A toward his II.

Same disclaimers as matt .

 

[avbug]

3) You are designated PIC. You are responsible for the safe operation of the flight. On multi-crew aircraft, this is always the captain. Captain is always responsible for what happens - thus he gets to log PIC, since he is in command.

Actually, no. The captain is not always PIC. Whomever is designated as PIC in an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember, is PIC. That may be the "captain," or someone else. Being "captain" has nothing to do with it.

You may be confusing your regulations. Under Parts 121 or 135, the person designated as PIC by the certificate holder remains the PIC for the entire flight...which is always the captain in that case. However, this has nothing to do with logging, except insofar has the designation of the PIC to meet the requirements of 61.51(e)(1)(iii).

What if I took the rudder pedals out of the left side of a 172, and the yoke out of the right side of a 172, and slapped an experimental sticker on it?

It would then require two pilots, thus two PICs!

This still wouldn't do it. Only one pilot in command is required, or permitted, regardless of how the aircraft might be bastardized. There is only ever one pilot in command. Only one person may act as pilot in command. If th aircraft design requires two crewmembers, that's another matter, but if there are one or ten or a hundred required crewmembers, there is only one allowed, required, or permitted pilot in command.

That aside, gaining experimental certification isn't as easy as merely slapping a sticker on an aircraft, especially a modified certificated airframe. In this case you're going to need a field approval for major alternations, and may be required to fly under an experiemental certificate, assuming the FAA will grant the exemption. I doubt they would.

Regardless of weather the FAA would do so or not, only one pilot may act as pilot in command, even though more than one may log it.

Pilots arguing over if a Safety Pilot can log PIC? Wow, thats a new one haha

Actually, it's one of the most common regulatory questions of any posed...and it's no debate. There is no question that more than one pilot may log PIC legally, and the FAA has made it quite clear in multiple interpretations of the regulation.