Two Pilots in Command?

[jackotron]

Ok, I'm sure that there has been a post of this nature before, but I can't find it. So I'll give you my question anyway.

If two pilots go on a flight and one pilot is under the hood and the sole manipulator of the controls and the other is the Safety pilot (the one responsible for the safety of the flight), can both log PIC?

Under the regulations 91.3 the PIC is responisble for safe operation of the flight. That has to be the safety pilot.

There is an interesting article I just read from the Las Vegas FSDO, but I have heard that it varies between FSDO (is that true?). Here is a quote:

http://www.awp.faa.gov/new/fsdo/las_vegas/art_pilot.htm

"Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions. However, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command must realize that anything that occurs during the flight is his responsibility. Airspace violations, non-compliance with ATC instructions, near mid air collision, and runway incursions on the ground are all now charged to the safety pilot. A recent article in a monthly aviation publications discussed a flight where there was a violation and the two pilots disagreed who was pilot-in-command."

So what do you guys think?

I heard that two pilots doing this lost their certificates over it.

Jack

 

[avbug]

Two pilots may log PIC, without any difficulty or fear of the regulation; the FAA has long been very clear on this. Two pilots may not act as pilot in command at the same time.

Logging PIC is not the same as acting as PIC. Two pilots may log PIC on the same flight, but not act as PIC on the same flight, and therein lies the difference.

 

[User546]

I agree, its very clear that when your flying with someone under the hood, that your both PIC of the flight. Many flight academies use this as a way to get two people PIC x-country time at the same time.

If your under the hood, you are single-handedly controlling/manipulating the aircraft soley by reference of your instruments, whereas the safety pilot is the one responsible for traffic avoidance and pilot monitoring as required in VFR conditions.

If two pilots lost their certificates over this, I can guarantee you there was more to the story then them simply doing a the hood/safety pilot routine.

 

[mattpilot]

If you really wanna fook with the regs... throw a instructor in the back of the plane and let him 'give instruction' to the flying pilot. This way, all three can log PIC time...

I heard someone has attempted this once.....

(sorry, can't have to many... otherwise someone might think my suggestion was serious with all these tight-arses running around on the board)

 

[Wasted]

I also heard the FAA violated all three people in a plane once.

 

[avbug]

I agree, its very clear that when your flying with someone under the hood, that your both PIC of the flight. Many flight academies use this as a way to get two people PIC x-country time at the same time.

This is not the case. There is only ever one pilot in command.

That two people may log the time as pilot in command is an entirely different matter. When one is under the hood and manipulating the controls, and another is acting as safety pilot and by prior arrangement, pilot in command, there is only ever one pilot in command. Both may log the time as PIC under the proper circumstances, but there is only ever one pilot in command.

 

[avbug]

In this situation, the correct terminology makes all the difference. It may make all the difference between another logook entry, and a regulation violation and enforcement action.

 

[jackotron]

Avbug,

So let me get this straight. In the original situation, even though only one pilot is acting as PIC, both can log PIC. Does that about sum it up?

Regards,

Jack

 

[mattpilot]

Avbug,

So let me get this straight. In the original situation, even though only one pilot is acting as PIC, both can log PIC. Does that about sum it up?

Regards,

Jack

There are 3 ways someone can log PIC. YOu can find this under 61.51 (E)

1) being the sole occupant. duh - No one else around to fly it. This situation is used for students who solo, since they don't qualify under the other 2 situations because they are not properly rated for the aircraft.

2) Being sole manipulator of the controls. If you are properly rated for the aircraft and are manipulating the controls, you can log PIC. You are activily involved in the aircrafts operation.

3) You are designated PIC. You are responsible for the safe operation of the flight. On multi-crew aircraft, this is always the captain. Captain is always responsible for what happens - thus he gets to log PIC, since he is in command.

** edit: Now its important to note that option 3) is only applicable on aircraft that REQUIRE more than 1 crewmember for the operation being conducted.

Say you are flying in your 172 with your buddy. 172 only requires 1 crew member. Therefor, only one person can log PIC, even if you designate the other person as PIC. The operation (VFR flight) does not require more than 1 crew member. Option 3 would not be applicable.

So how does that work with a safetypilot? Well if you look at 91.109 (b), to do simulated instrument flight (being under the hood), you are required to have a second crew member on board (the safety pilot). Thus, the operation (sim. instrument flight) requires 2 crew members to be on board. In this case, option 3 is applicable.

 

[falcon20driver]

Avbug,

So let me get this straight. In the original situation, even though only one pilot is acting as PIC, both can log PIC. Does that about sum it up?

Regards,

Jack

Yes that sums it up nicely. Logging PIC and acting AS PIC are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS.