TWA Still Kickin'

[Pilotbob3]

I am not so sure about that.

I have read plenty of posts by former OZ captains like Bob Herbst They are all less then flattering about the TWA intergration. Sure they gave DOH when they intergrated, because most of the OZ folks (captains) were junior to the TWA pilots. Most of them could no longer hold their seats. Some of the OZ captains, spent quite a few years at TWA just trying to get back to their seats ( TWA seat grab). Leaving the younger OZ folks in the lower paying seats (less pay). "But heck we gave them DOH"

All it cost them was their seats and their $$$$$.

None of this was includded into the Supp CC, AA intergration. Anyone who lost a seat or a job did so because of 9/11, the econony, the war in Iraq, yada yada. Not the AA intergration.

Bob Herbst is not very respected by a lot of TWA pilots because of his bitching about getting Date of hire, which is bizarro to me...Yes they got DOH thats how it should be. They are the ones holding 767 captain in STL now....no "yea but's"!

sorry i lost my job because i was STAPLED to the list.....because of the AA pilots and APA. simple as that.....i am a 1998 hire, says so on my ID, (that i had to turn in). there is no other way you can justify what was done.

 

[G4G5]

Bob,

This is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. You did not lose your job because of the AA pilots or the supp CC intergration (as orignally intended). You lost it because:

Carl Ichan
3 BK's
Poor mgt
Karabu
9/11
The Economy
The war in Iraq
I could go on and on but I think most folks get the picture.

I will let the readers be the judge

PS you may not like Bob H but I really get a kick out of those who try and pass off the TWA/OZ intergration as fair. All I need to do is bring up his name and you have the prime example of how one OZ capt lost his DC9 CA seat(bounced over to the right by TWA's DOH, flying fo for TWA pilots in OZ aircraft) and spent the better part of a decade trying to get his seat back. Again you may not like him but that's hardly what I would call fair.

Why are they flying the remaining 767's today? Because like I stated in the previous post, for the most part they were younger. The orignal seat stealing TWA pilots are long since retired.

How many Bob H's are their in the AA intergration? Be fair how many would their have been if supp CC had been implemented as orignally intended?

 

[TWA Dude]

Of course the OZ/TWA merger was unfair. The TWA guys used their leverage as the acquiring carrier to their advantage. I don't mean this as a slam but as simple statement of how the world works. The APA acted similarly but in this case there are far more layoffs. Further complicating matters was ALPA National selling out the TWA guys.

I'm one of the few guys who outwardly agrees with much of what Bob H writes, especially given my juniority. He is not an "I've got mine" kind of guy as his detractors label him. Many of those detractors have trouble dealing with their anger and take it out on anybody who disagrees with them.

 

[Neubyfly]

Of course the OZ/TWA merger was unfair. The TWA guys used their leverage as the acquiring carrier to their advantage. I don't mean this as a slam but as simple statement of how the world works. The APA acted similarly but in this case there are far more layoffs. Further complicating matters was ALPA National selling out the TWA guys.

I'm one of the few guys who outwardly agrees with much of what Bob H writes, especially given my juniority. He is not an "I've got mine" kind of guy as his detractors label him. Many of those detractors have trouble dealing with their anger and take it out on anybody who disagrees with them.

How does one get more fair than DOH?? How does one get more fair than retiring in an aircraft MUCH large than anything Ozark had? The only thing that I see as somewhat unfair is the length of the 16% restriction. Noone intended for it to last so long. Could the integratinon been handled a little better, Maybe? Is it better than what we got.........DEFINATELY!!!

 

[AAflyer]

How does one get more fair than DOH?

Well, how old was OZ at the time of purchase? If the senior person was only 10 years and a majority of the pilots were 5 or less DOH does not do much to the seniority list of the aquiring company.

When a senior airline has people that have been there for well over 25 years then it changes the ballgame.

Not saying TWA was treated fairly, infact like TWADUDE I am a minority on my side as I would be the first to say the TWA pilots got the shaft.

Not trying to sound pissy either, you asked for an opinion and that is mine. If OZ had been larger and and older airline with a more senior pilot group would it have been the same integration?

Hoping for all of us to get back to work soon.

AAflyer


P.S. Becareful using that line of they got to retire in a larger jet than OZ had. Many AA pilots will try to sell you the same line. It does not fly now and certainly should not have flown back then, BECAUSE NOBODY can predict the future!

 

[Counselair]

I'm still bored...

Maybe one more good stir...from the grassy knoll.

Precedence???

Reuters
UPDATE - Air Canada to shuffle pilot seniority lists
Tuesday June 17, 1:30 pm ET
By Charles Grandmont


(Adds details, background, quotes)
MONTREAL, June 17 (Reuters) - Air Canada (Toronto:AC.TO - News) said on Tuesday it will implement a labor board ruling on pilots' seniority lists, even though the change is angering pilots who have already been asked to accept pay and job cuts to keep the insolvent airline aloft.


"Air Canada wants to stay neutral because it's an issue relating to union seniority, it's not Air Canada's responsibility," company spokeswoman Isabelle Arthur said.

The Canadian Industrial Relations Board gave Air Canada until Wednesday night to shuffle its seniority lists, which have been contested since the carrier's takeover of floundering rival Canadian Airlines three years ago.

The divisive ruling comes as Air Canada's 3,400 pilots are set to begin voting this week on a cost-cutting deal central to the airline's restructuring.

"We are actively encouraging our pilots to keep the two issues separated. Without an airline, there is not going to be a seniority list to worry about," David Coles, head of a committee representing pilots who flew with Air Canada before the merger with Canadian.

The seniority lists are crucial for pilots as they determine their pay and the type of aircraft they fly. Air Canada pilots say they will be unfairly bumped down the list by former Canadian Airlines pilots, who are generally older.

About a third of Air Canada's 3,400 pilots previously flew with Canadian, and they contested an earlier ruling on seniority lists, which they felt was unfair.

The latest ruling, handed down on Monday, was rejected by the original Air Canada pilots as having tipped the balance the other way. They are now seeking a way to overturn it, even though both pilots groups had agreed to accept the ruling as final.

"We will use whatever legal avenues we have available," Coles said.

The seniority issue could also determine which pilots stand to lose their jobs once Air Canada goes ahead with plans to retire some older and larger aircraft to reduce costs.

Air Canada has given all its unions until the end of the month to agree to labor cost reductions totaling C$1.1 billion ($820 million). The airline is losing C$5 million a day and the court-appointed monitor has warned the company could run out of money before it completes its restructuring.
==================================================

 

[TWA Dude]

Well, how old was OZ at the time of purchase? If the senior person was only 10 years and a majority of the pilots were 5 or less DOH does not do much to the seniority list of the aquiring company.

Ozark began in 1950, making it a 36-year old airline when acquired by TWA.

-----------------

Neubyfly:

My intent wasn't to get into any direct comparison of the OZ merger vs. our own, but to lament the fact that "fairness" never enters into the picture in corporate mergers. Of course if TWA had gotten an OZ-equivelant integration I'd still have my job (I'm a '99 hire). The acquiring carrier has a history of not showing much respect for the acquired and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[AAflyer]

TWAdude,

Thanks for the information, I thought for some reason there were many junior pilots at OZ.

AA

 

[Clownpilot]

How did we save TWA ?????

Look at the records.

In April of 2001 TWA ran out of money.

Fact: They couldn't borrow it. They were so tapped out they had approached every available lender and been turned down. Compton stated as such openly in a press release and in court shortly after. You guys are pure liars to say otherwise.

Fact: Gas prices rose considerably.

Fact: They couldnt pay a $200 million debt payment that was owed.

Fact: Compton called Carty and offered a deal.

Fact: Carty agreed only if he could vacate karabu and several other agreements that were killing the bottom line.

Fact: Bankruptcy was the only way to negate these contracts.

Fact: TWA was going THAT DAY into Chapter 7 without an IMMEDIATE PAYMENT OF $200 MILLION BY AMR....which they did in fact pay at that time. (TWA pilots have NO recollection of this, quite conveniently)

Fact: TWA guys cheered this because they KNEW they were on the street without it.

Fact: TWA liars know full well they were saved and are only denying it because they feel that they can get something more from some sympathetic Senatorial BS by distorting the facts.

TWA pukes never want to discuss the actual facts of what happened. Simply because what they agreed to they don't want to honor. They are liars and cheats.

The TWA pilot group is a bunch of bottom feeders who want to steal from others and deny the truth.

I'm sick of it.

TWA LLC should be sold outright to solve this mess (Robert Crandall in a March interview). And he's right.

End of story.

Hey, Clown,

Please explain for the dumb kids in the audience how exactly you "saved" TW? Just curious. Or how by loudly pronouncing during BK proceedings how AA was going "save the jobs" of TW employees your organization cut other bidders out of the pattern at court. Only to renege on that promise. Explain. Remember, little words, I'm not that bright.

 

[G4G5]

Of course the OZ/TWA merger was unfair. The TWA guys used their leverage as the acquiring carrier to their advantage. I don't mean this as a slam but as simple statement of how the world works. The APA acted similarly but in this case there are far more layoffs. Further complicating matters was ALPA National selling out the TWA guys.

I'm one of the few guys who outwardly agrees with much of what Bob H writes, especially given my juniority. He is not an "I've got mine" kind of guy as his detractors label him. Many of those detractors have trouble dealing with their anger and take it out on anybody who disagrees with them.

I agree with you about the OZ intergration and about Bob H.

While I don't know him personally I have corresponded with him on a variety of topics. Each time I found his information to be correct.