Twa pilots vs alpa

[Kalifornia]

Kali, ALPA is the organization that had a legal obligation to represent the best interests of TWA pilots. Instead, ALPA chose to throw TWA pilots to the wolves in the hopes of enticing APA to rejoin ALPA. Hence, ALPA is the entity rightly being sued by TWA pilots. No one else had any duty to represent TWA pilots. Clear now?

Yea, that's fine and clear, but it still doesn't address the ethical dilemma issues I raised when it comes to the level of damages or the scope of responsibility to present day airline pilots.

 

[swa737-700]

Yea, that's fine and clear, but it still doesn't address the ethical dilemma issues I raised when it comes to the level of damages or the scope of responsibility to present day airline pilots.

Kali,

You were either part of alpo and kept your mouth shut while this went down, or you joined alpo after the fact and were aware of the potential down side. Regardless, alpo needs to pay for their intentional failure of DFR. I am sorry if you are assessed for the lack of integrity of the alpo leaders in Verndon, VA. Perhaps alpos insurance will suffice?

 

[Kugelblitz]

That doesn't quite cover all the ethics involved there. I can sympathize that this was a bad situation for you guys and unfair to a degree*key word degree. However, you are so upset with ALPA that you chose to go another ALPA carrier?? You don't put blame on APA, claiming they were just being "dirty", yet are looking for a payment at the expense of every ALPA member if the claims are indeed true for being, you guessed it, "dirty". And just who set in motion this ALPA organization, how about TWA pilots being as part of the organization, also responsible for creating it? What percentage of present day ALPA members had any input in this situation? TWA was on a downward spiral long before this situation came up, and since the manufacturing downturn of the 80s, St. Louis has not been an attractive city to concentrate ones' airline operations and TWA 800 was also a factor. Most importantly, given the current American dire situation especially, most TWA pilots who went elsewhere are to some degree in a better spot than even had they been spliced in better at American given how "dirty" the APA played, I doubt if any negotiator on the planet could have represented much improvement in your seniority list dispute.

Yep, you're an airline pilot alright. You also, honestly, know little of what you are making such a bold post about. You really don't.

So I shun a job when I am out of work because they are represented by the over-arching union of the airlines? Absurd. Most of your justifications, I hate to break this to you, are hardly innovative, thoughtful, nor intelligent. Just the same old, tired diatribe used by one party to screw another, or, in this instance of your post, to run away from it's responsibilities.

Again, if the shoe was on the other foot, you would never make such comments.

 

[ualdriver]

You guys are beating up on Kalifornia, but whether you like ALPA or not, he raises some valid points. I took the time to read the entire court case that was posted on that TWA pilot website. It was a few thousand pages long (double spaced), but I read it here and there and got through it in a few months. It was actually quite interesting. Those of you that are attacking.....did you read the case?

I think there were a few "stupid" things that ALPA did that they probably shouldn't have. Duane shouldn't have been visiting AMR at all while TWA was going through the throes of bankruptcy, but he did. The misquote about the TWA pilots having to "get real" (or whatever it was) made him look bad. The TWA pilots shouldn't have had to go to a IAM office to try to push their attempt at legislation through, but they did. There were a couple of other stupid things that ALPA did that "looked bad," so I could see where a juror could say, hey, ALPA did a lot for them, but they didn't do EVERYTHING they possibly could have for the TWA guys. But did that mean that had ALPA done EVERYTHING perfectly that the TWA guys would have had a DOH seniority integration with AMR or that TWA would still be alive? I don't think so.

Let's face it. TWA was in a financial hurting. The TWA guy's own financial advisers knew it. The bankruptcy judge made statements to that fact, but to listen to the TWA pilots testify, TWA was the second coming to the airline industry. Yet they were losing money in the late 90's when everyone else was profitable.

After reading all of it, to me the TWA pilots were screwed no matter what. APA had a clause in their contract that allowed them to control the seniority list integration, and for all intents and purposes could kill the whole deal if they didn't get their way. TWA management was going to take the TWA MEC through the 1113 process and likely throw out their scope entirely if the TWA MEC didn't compromise. They were faced with either taking the deal the APA offered which gave some of the TWA guys some integration into the AMR list (and some other protections) or risking losing some/all of their protections through the 1113 process. Some of the TWA MEC, in my opinion, were quite reckless with their desire to risk the entire deal just so they could get their way. And if ALPA had said FU to the APA deal and lost, they would have been sued anyway by the TWA pilots who lost whatever integration and "gets" they otherwise would have gotten through the compromise with the APA. It's a no-win deal for the union.

Then you read on here and other forum where a bunch of these TWA guys think they're going to get some multi-billion dollar settlement. OK, the jury spoke, ALPA lost. They're going to have to pay something. But what damages do pilots from a thrice bankrupt airline, who were faced with a 1113 process that could have (and likely would have) got them nothing deserve as damages? Do TWA pilots expect damages as if they were going to leap-frog a bunch of AMR pilots on their seniority list? I mean, does anyone really think that if ALPA had only "fought harder" that the APA would have given in and allowed a bunch of pilots from a bankrupt carrier to jump ahead of them vs. just letting the deal die? Would you if you were an AMR pilot?

To me, whether I'm a biased ALPA supporter or not, its completely unrealistic for a TWA guy to expect tens of thousands of other ALPA members to pay thousands of dollars each in damages because the TWA guys chose to hitch their airline pilot career horse to a losing airline. Yup, you're owed something and the jury will decide if both sides don't agree to a settlement. But some huge billion dollar settlement? Sorry, I don't agree with that and one way or the other, ALPA members will likely not be paying it.

 

[A350]

The problem with ALPA is that ALPA is not willing to put its own existence on the line to protect this profession. It always has some excuse.

Whether or not they did everything right or wrong in the TWA case is not relavant. They were pandering to the APA pilots when they should have been going to war with them. The TWA pilots are a founding member. But because of circumstances that any airline could find themselves in, they found themselves foundering. This has happened to several "elephants" in the past and don't think it can't happen to you.

Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

A350

 

[Kalifornia]

Thank you ualdriver; a very worthwhile addition!

 

[AAPilot]

You guys are beating up on Kalifornia, but whether you like ALPA or not, he raises some valid points. I took the time to read the entire court case that was posted on that TWA pilot website. It was a few thousand pages long (double spaced), but I read it here and there and got through it in a few months. It was actually quite interesting. Those of you that are attacking.....did you read the case?

I think there were a few "stupid" things that ALPA did that they probably shouldn't have. Duane shouldn't have been visiting AMR at all while TWA was going through the throes of bankruptcy, but he did. The misquote about the TWA pilots having to "get real" (or whatever it was) made him look bad. The TWA pilots shouldn't have had to go to a IAM office to try to push their attempt at legislation through, but they did. There were a couple of other stupid things that ALPA did that "looked bad," so I could see where a juror could say, hey, ALPA did a lot for them, but they didn't do EVERYTHING they possibly could have for the TWA guys. But did that mean that had ALPA done EVERYTHING perfectly that the TWA guys would have had a DOH seniority integration with AMR or that TWA would still be alive? I don't think so.

Let's face it. TWA was in a financial hurting. The TWA guy's own financial advisers knew it. The bankruptcy judge made statements to that fact, but to listen to the TWA pilots testify, TWA was the second coming to the airline industry. Yet they were losing money in the late 90's when everyone else was profitable.

After reading all of it, to me the TWA pilots were screwed no matter what. APA had a clause in their contract that allowed them to control the seniority list integration, and for all intents and purposes could kill the whole deal if they didn't get their way. TWA management was going to take the TWA MEC through the 1113 process and likely throw out their scope entirely if the TWA MEC didn't compromise. They were faced with either taking the deal the APA offered which gave some of the TWA guys some integration into the AMR list (and some other protections) or risking losing some/all of their protections through the 1113 process. Some of the TWA MEC, in my opinion, were quite reckless with their desire to risk the entire deal just so they could get their way. And if ALPA had said FU to the APA deal and lost, they would have been sued anyway by the TWA pilots who lost whatever integration and "gets" they otherwise would have gotten through the compromise with the APA. It's a no-win deal for the union.

Then you read on here and other forum where a bunch of these TWA guys think they're going to get some multi-billion dollar settlement. OK, the jury spoke, ALPA lost. They're going to have to pay something. But what damages do pilots from a thrice bankrupt airline, who were faced with a 1113 process that could have (and likely would have) got them nothing deserve as damages? Do TWA pilots expect damages as if they were going to leap-frog a bunch of AMR pilots on their seniority list? I mean, does anyone really think that if ALPA had only "fought harder" that the APA would have given in and allowed a bunch of pilots from a bankrupt carrier to jump ahead of them vs. just letting the deal die? Would you if you were an AMR pilot?

To me, whether I'm a biased ALPA supporter or not, its completely unrealistic for a TWA guy to expect tens of thousands of other ALPA members to pay thousands of dollars each in damages because the TWA guys chose to hitch their airline pilot career horse to a losing airline. Yup, you're owed something and the jury will decide if both sides don't agree to a settlement. But some huge billion dollar settlement? Sorry, I don't agree with that and one way or the other, ALPA members will likely not be paying it.

Typical UAL guy

 

[outerlimits]

They're going to have to pay something. But what damages do pilots from a thrice bankrupt airline, who were faced with a 1113 process that could have (and likely would have) got them nothing deserve as damages? Do TWA pilots expect damages as if they were going to leap-frog a bunch of AMR pilots on their seniority list?.

Wrong is wrong. It is like your trying to defend someone that robbed a bank.
(The bank has been robbed 3x before, I do not think the defendant should get the normal incarceration)

 

[Draginass]

I guess we'll just have to see what they can collect as "damages." I suspect close to n-i-e-n-t-e.

 

[ualdriver]

Wrong is wrong. It is like your trying to defend someone that robbed a bank.
(The bank has been robbed 3x before, I do not think the defendant should get the normal incarceration)

I don't get that analogy at all?

My point is that it is not like ALPA did NOTHING for the TWA guys. They got millions of dollars in support. They got attorneys. They got financial advisors. They got trip pay. Just read snippets of the case and you'll see that there was no shortage of advice or money provided to the TWA MEC.

But of course, you'll argue, ALPA sucks so every attorney and advisor provided by them were horrible hacks that knew nothing about anything, right? Well, the TWA MEC also hired their own advisors and attorneys. So even if the ALPA advisors uttered nothing but lies, they had the advice from their own advisors that THEY hired.

And that's my point. ALPA didn't rob a bank 3 times or whatever you're talking about. They did a lot for the TWA guys (read the case) but did some stupid crap that made them look bad. Apparently the plaintiffs got the jury's sympathy and they will get something out of it. Again, just because ALPA didn't do everything perfectly doesn't mean the TWA guys weren't screwed anyway. The damages portion of the case should reflect that fact.

The TWA MEC guys (and gal) made an educated decision then decided to sue because they didn't like the outcome. Hey, why not sue ALPA? They have deep pockets and they're an organization everyone loves to hate. Heck, there was testimony that some TWA guys were already planning to sue almost from the beginning. Again, it's not tens of thousands of ALPA members' fault that TWA was a financially struggling airline that ultimately failed in the free market. Why should we pay huge damages for that?

 

[Mama's Boy]

Didn't a group of United pilots recently win a large settlement from ALPA?

 

[ualdriver]

Didn't a group of United pilots recently win a large settlement from ALPA?

Yes. A group of senior pilots sued ALPA because they felt they should have received more of a bankruptcy bond settlement then they were awarded at United by the MEC reps. Of course, the more money they felt they deserved would have been at the expense of the more junior pilots........classic senior vs. junior.

Anyway, they settled out of court with ALPA and it was a large settlement. I want to say around 100M, but I have forgotten the exact number.

 

[Flopgut]

Typical UAL guy

Pretty good post for a UAL guy, IMHO.

Question: What group did better when purchased? Frontier [original] when bought by UAL? How about Ozark when bought by TWA? Or TWA when bought by American? Yeah, TWA.

This union is so crooked it's unbelieveable! We need to shut it down.