Twa pilots vs alpa

[GIZMONC]

It is my understanding that since the TWA Pilots got a judgement against ALPA for the way they failed on the merger with AA, this is moving to the MONETARY decision at this time. Since TWA Pilots obtained that judgement and now AA is in bankrupcy. Will this fall back on APA. It is also my understanding that APA fenced the TWA pilots in STL and with the bankrupcy STL may no longer be an AA Pilot base. Could this backfire against APA? Anyone have any idea on what is next ?

 

[shon7]

say what

 

[Raoul Duke]

ALPA is the defendant, not AA and not APA. The BK filing has no affect on the case.

 

[Neubyfly]

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[outerlimits]

ALPA is the defendant, not AA and not APA. The BK filing has no affect on the case.

True. If ALPA increases dues to 3% they could pay any amount awarded .

The TWA pilots deserve it, I would be willing to give another one percent for them.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

True. If ALPA increases dues to 3% they could pay any amount awarded .

The TWA pilots deserve it, I would be willing to give another one percent for them.

I doubt you will find too many ALPA members agreeing with you on that one. Personally ALPA should settle or file for bankruptcy and move on.

 

[Raoul Duke]

They have insurance, time to pony up (again)

 

[outerlimits]

I doubt you will find too many ALPA members agreeing with you on that one. Personally ALPA should settle or file for bankruptcy and move on.

Only the ones that are very self centered and could care less about right vs. wrong.

 

[Kugelblitz]

Only the ones that are very self centered and could care less about right vs. wrong.

How very true, and this is why ALPA fails. I am one of those TWA types, I am at CAL/UAL now. Lately, every once in awhile, someone approaches me and tells me, "Did you hear DAL is decertifying ALPA? They are getting out before the lawsuit settles." The couple that have brought this to my attention (assuming it is even true) can't help the smirk they have on their face, like "you think your getting your money don't you? But your not". As though I am getting some sort of handout.

I won't go into the vicissitudes of the 8 years I was out before I was recalled. I have many friends who have suffered as well. I don't have an issue with APA, they did their dirty job in a dirty business. ALPA, that is another story. The issue here however is the resentment I sense from those about this lawsuit and this POTENTIAL award. I will believe it when I see it.

I wonder, how everyone would feel in our shoes? How would one like to hear how everyone is bailing to avoid a fine associated with a lawsuit -assuming this would even be assessed on the membership anyways? Then some of these folks want unity in their contract talks? They want to be supported from a common strike fund? They want other air carrier pilot support? Really?

ALPA national seems like a bunch of narcissistic jerks because they represent a bunch of narcissistic jerks. If it is true that DAL is leaving over this, and not something truly concerning like controlling scope, how sad for them. Again I don't know this to be true. But it underscores why ALPA or any other national union representing airline pilots is doomed to fail. If one's perspective is the ever present mantra in our society that 'I have to get the best deal for me and the heck with anyone else', please look in the mirror to see why this career is going down the toilet and no one can make any headway on scope, work rules, compensation, etc.

 

[Whine Lover]

"...going down the toilet.."

Going?

GOing?

GONE.

 

[Lake Alice]

True. If ALPA increases dues to 3% they could pay any amount awarded .

The TWA pilots deserve it, I would be willing to give another one percent for them.

Outer you realize your own mec agreed to code share, right?

 

[doh]

How very true, and this is why ALPA fails. I am one of those TWA types, I am at CAL/UAL now. Lately, every once in awhile, someone approaches me and tells me, "Did you hear DAL is decertifying ALPA? They are getting out before the lawsuit settles." The couple that have brought this to my attention (assuming it is even true) can't help the smirk they have on their face, like "you think your getting your money don't you? But your not". As though I am getting some sort of handout.

I won't go into the vicissitudes of the 8 years I was out before I was recalled. I have many friends who have suffered as well. I don't have an issue with APA, they did their dirty job in a dirty business. ALPA, that is another story. The issue here however is the resentment I sense from those about this lawsuit and this POTENTIAL award. I will believe it when I see it.

I wonder, how everyone would feel in our shoes? How would one like to hear how everyone is bailing to avoid a fine associated with a lawsuit -assuming this would even be assessed on the membership anyways? Then some of these folks want unity in their contract talks? They want to be supported from a common strike fund? They want other air carrier pilot support? Really?

ALPA national seems like a bunch of narcissistic jerks because they represent a bunch of narcissistic jerks. If it is true that DAL is leaving over this, and not something truly concerning like controlling scope, how sad for them. Again I don't know this to be true. But it underscores why ALPA or any other national union representing airline pilots is doomed to fail. If one's perspective is the ever present mantra in our society that 'I have to get the best deal for me and the heck with anyone else', please look in the mirror to see why this career is going down the toilet and no one can make any headway on scope, work rules, compensation, etc.

Best £@¢King post in a long, long time!

 

[dicko]

How very true, and this is why ALPA fails. I am one of those TWA types, I am at CAL/UAL now. Lately, every once in awhile, someone approaches me and tells me, "Did you hear DAL is decertifying ALPA? They are getting out before the lawsuit settles." The couple that have brought this to my attention (assuming it is even true) can't help the smirk they have on their face, like "you think your getting your money don't you? But your not". As though I am getting some sort of handout.

I won't go into the vicissitudes of the 8 years I was out before I was recalled. I have many friends who have suffered as well. I don't have an issue with APA, they did their dirty job in a dirty business. ALPA, that is another story. The issue here however is the resentment I sense from those about this lawsuit and this POTENTIAL award. I will believe it when I see it.

I wonder, how everyone would feel in our shoes? How would one like to hear how everyone is bailing to avoid a fine associated with a lawsuit -assuming this would even be assessed on the membership anyways? Then some of these folks want unity in their contract talks? They want to be supported from a common strike fund? They want other air carrier pilot support? Really?

ALPA national seems like a bunch of narcissistic jerks because they represent a bunch of narcissistic jerks. If it is true that DAL is leaving over this, and not something truly concerning like controlling scope, how sad for them. Again I don't know this to be true. But it underscores why ALPA or any other national union representing airline pilots is doomed to fail. If one's perspective is the ever present mantra in our society that 'I have to get the best deal for me and the heck with anyone else', please look in the mirror to see why this career is going down the toilet and no one can make any headway on scope, work rules, compensation, etc.

Well written and very true.

I hope that you get what you deserve. I have the same hope for ALPA. The irony is that they wouldn't decertify ALPA over it's crimes, Scope or an assessment. You can add spineless to the list.

 

[Kalifornia]

How very true, and this is why ALPA fails. I am one of those TWA types, I am at CAL/UAL now. Lately, every once in awhile, someone approaches me and tells me, "Did you hear DAL is decertifying ALPA? They are getting out before the lawsuit settles." The couple that have brought this to my attention (assuming it is even true) can't help the smirk they have on their face, like "you think your getting your money don't you? But your not". As though I am getting some sort of handout.

I won't go into the vicissitudes of the 8 years I was out before I was recalled. I have many friends who have suffered as well. I don't have an issue with APA, they did their dirty job in a dirty business. ALPA, that is another story. The issue here however is the resentment I sense from those about this lawsuit and this POTENTIAL award. I will believe it when I see it.

I wonder, how everyone would feel in our shoes? How would one like to hear how everyone is bailing to avoid a fine associated with a lawsuit -assuming this would even be assessed on the membership anyways? Then some of these folks want unity in their contract talks? They want to be supported from a common strike fund? They want other air carrier pilot support? Really?

ALPA national seems like a bunch of narcissistic jerks because they represent a bunch of narcissistic jerks. If it is true that DAL is leaving over this, and not something truly concerning like controlling scope, how sad for them. Again I don't know this to be true. But it underscores why ALPA or any other national union representing airline pilots is doomed to fail. If one's perspective is the ever present mantra in our society that 'I have to get the best deal for me and the heck with anyone else', please look in the mirror to see why this career is going down the toilet and no one can make any headway on scope, work rules, compensation, etc.

That doesn't quite cover all the ethics involved there. I can sympathize that this was a bad situation for you guys and unfair to a degree*key word degree. However, you are so upset with ALPA that you chose to go another ALPA carrier?? You don't put blame on APA, claiming they were just being "dirty", yet are looking for a payment at the expense of every ALPA member if the claims are indeed true for being, you guessed it, "dirty". And just who set in motion this ALPA organization, how about TWA pilots being as part of the organization, also responsible for creating it? What percentage of present day ALPA members had any input in this situation? TWA was on a downward spiral long before this situation came up, and since the manufacturing downturn of the 80s, St. Louis has not been an attractive city to concentrate ones' airline operations and TWA 800 was also a factor. Most importantly, given the current American dire situation especially, most TWA pilots who went elsewhere are to some degree in a better spot than even had they been spliced in better at American given how "dirty" the APA played, I doubt if any negotiator on the planet could have represented much improvement in your seniority list dispute.

 

[doh]

Kali, ALPA is the organization that had a legal obligation to represent the best interests of TWA pilots. Instead, ALPA chose to throw TWA pilots to the wolves in the hopes of enticing APA to rejoin ALPA. Hence, ALPA is the entity rightly being sued by TWA pilots. No one else had any duty to represent TWA pilots. Clear now?

 

[Kalifornia]

Kali, ALPA is the organization that had a legal obligation to represent the best interests of TWA pilots. Instead, ALPA chose to throw TWA pilots to the wolves in the hopes of enticing APA to rejoin ALPA. Hence, ALPA is the entity rightly being sued by TWA pilots. No one else had any duty to represent TWA pilots. Clear now?

Yea, that's fine and clear, but it still doesn't address the ethical dilemma issues I raised when it comes to the level of damages or the scope of responsibility to present day airline pilots.

 

[swa737-700]

Yea, that's fine and clear, but it still doesn't address the ethical dilemma issues I raised when it comes to the level of damages or the scope of responsibility to present day airline pilots.

Kali,

You were either part of alpo and kept your mouth shut while this went down, or you joined alpo after the fact and were aware of the potential down side. Regardless, alpo needs to pay for their intentional failure of DFR. I am sorry if you are assessed for the lack of integrity of the alpo leaders in Verndon, VA. Perhaps alpos insurance will suffice?

 

[Kugelblitz]

That doesn't quite cover all the ethics involved there. I can sympathize that this was a bad situation for you guys and unfair to a degree*key word degree. However, you are so upset with ALPA that you chose to go another ALPA carrier?? You don't put blame on APA, claiming they were just being "dirty", yet are looking for a payment at the expense of every ALPA member if the claims are indeed true for being, you guessed it, "dirty". And just who set in motion this ALPA organization, how about TWA pilots being as part of the organization, also responsible for creating it? What percentage of present day ALPA members had any input in this situation? TWA was on a downward spiral long before this situation came up, and since the manufacturing downturn of the 80s, St. Louis has not been an attractive city to concentrate ones' airline operations and TWA 800 was also a factor. Most importantly, given the current American dire situation especially, most TWA pilots who went elsewhere are to some degree in a better spot than even had they been spliced in better at American given how "dirty" the APA played, I doubt if any negotiator on the planet could have represented much improvement in your seniority list dispute.

Yep, you're an airline pilot alright. You also, honestly, know little of what you are making such a bold post about. You really don't.

So I shun a job when I am out of work because they are represented by the over-arching union of the airlines? Absurd. Most of your justifications, I hate to break this to you, are hardly innovative, thoughtful, nor intelligent. Just the same old, tired diatribe used by one party to screw another, or, in this instance of your post, to run away from it's responsibilities.

Again, if the shoe was on the other foot, you would never make such comments.

 

[ualdriver]

You guys are beating up on Kalifornia, but whether you like ALPA or not, he raises some valid points. I took the time to read the entire court case that was posted on that TWA pilot website. It was a few thousand pages long (double spaced), but I read it here and there and got through it in a few months. It was actually quite interesting. Those of you that are attacking.....did you read the case?

I think there were a few "stupid" things that ALPA did that they probably shouldn't have. Duane shouldn't have been visiting AMR at all while TWA was going through the throes of bankruptcy, but he did. The misquote about the TWA pilots having to "get real" (or whatever it was) made him look bad. The TWA pilots shouldn't have had to go to a IAM office to try to push their attempt at legislation through, but they did. There were a couple of other stupid things that ALPA did that "looked bad," so I could see where a juror could say, hey, ALPA did a lot for them, but they didn't do EVERYTHING they possibly could have for the TWA guys. But did that mean that had ALPA done EVERYTHING perfectly that the TWA guys would have had a DOH seniority integration with AMR or that TWA would still be alive? I don't think so.

Let's face it. TWA was in a financial hurting. The TWA guy's own financial advisers knew it. The bankruptcy judge made statements to that fact, but to listen to the TWA pilots testify, TWA was the second coming to the airline industry. Yet they were losing money in the late 90's when everyone else was profitable.

After reading all of it, to me the TWA pilots were screwed no matter what. APA had a clause in their contract that allowed them to control the seniority list integration, and for all intents and purposes could kill the whole deal if they didn't get their way. TWA management was going to take the TWA MEC through the 1113 process and likely throw out their scope entirely if the TWA MEC didn't compromise. They were faced with either taking the deal the APA offered which gave some of the TWA guys some integration into the AMR list (and some other protections) or risking losing some/all of their protections through the 1113 process. Some of the TWA MEC, in my opinion, were quite reckless with their desire to risk the entire deal just so they could get their way. And if ALPA had said FU to the APA deal and lost, they would have been sued anyway by the TWA pilots who lost whatever integration and "gets" they otherwise would have gotten through the compromise with the APA. It's a no-win deal for the union.

Then you read on here and other forum where a bunch of these TWA guys think they're going to get some multi-billion dollar settlement. OK, the jury spoke, ALPA lost. They're going to have to pay something. But what damages do pilots from a thrice bankrupt airline, who were faced with a 1113 process that could have (and likely would have) got them nothing deserve as damages? Do TWA pilots expect damages as if they were going to leap-frog a bunch of AMR pilots on their seniority list? I mean, does anyone really think that if ALPA had only "fought harder" that the APA would have given in and allowed a bunch of pilots from a bankrupt carrier to jump ahead of them vs. just letting the deal die? Would you if you were an AMR pilot?

To me, whether I'm a biased ALPA supporter or not, its completely unrealistic for a TWA guy to expect tens of thousands of other ALPA members to pay thousands of dollars each in damages because the TWA guys chose to hitch their airline pilot career horse to a losing airline. Yup, you're owed something and the jury will decide if both sides don't agree to a settlement. But some huge billion dollar settlement? Sorry, I don't agree with that and one way or the other, ALPA members will likely not be paying it.

 

[A350]

The problem with ALPA is that ALPA is not willing to put its own existence on the line to protect this profession. It always has some excuse.

Whether or not they did everything right or wrong in the TWA case is not relavant. They were pandering to the APA pilots when they should have been going to war with them. The TWA pilots are a founding member. But because of circumstances that any airline could find themselves in, they found themselves foundering. This has happened to several "elephants" in the past and don't think it can't happen to you.

Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

A350