Turboprop vs. Jet below 10,000'

[msw]

"ATC'ers are not pilots, most of them assume the jet will be much faster, this isn't something that just started happening."

Well sorry, there are many of us that are. If ya'll would keep these posts professional, then maybe I would help you with your answers. Ohh well, hope you like the penalty box.

ATCT

I don't think the first quote above is unprofessional.... he is just stating his opinion, which, frankly, I suspect is more accurate than not. However, YOUR quote...... "hope you like the penalty box" ....... that's your professional ATC controller reply to the issue? If you are really an ATC controller, why don't you just tell us all what ATC's current philosophy - both official and unoffical - is, regarding how to mix and sequence airliners, jets and tubo-props on approach. Because, I gotta tell ya, I fly 3 or 4 times a week (usually a King Air 200, sometimes other stuff) out of a busy SoCal airport with a good mix of light general aviation aircraft, helicopters, corporate jets and tubo-props, and airline traffic......... and most (not all) of the SoCal approach controllers routinely (and quite obviously) give priority to the airlines, and everyone else's "needs" get secondary consideration.

 

[AerroMatt]

it really is more like "take care of the airlines first, and everyone else afterwards".

Like it or not, this is the reality of today. The airlines have convinced (or bribed) FAA management into giving their flights priority whether they need it or not. Don't blame ATC controllers for this, they're just following orders.

Shoot, I get vectors in SoCal airspace while I'm in the flight levels to allow for climbing airliners to pass thru my airspace all the time. Nothing new about this, but its annoying all the same. I just don't have as much money to throw around as NATA.

 

[Say Again Over]

msw, cheers! :beer:

 

[msw]

Like it or not, this is the reality of today. The airlines have convinced (or bribed) FAA management into giving their flights priority whether they need it or not. Don't blame ATC controllers for this, they're just following orders.

This is what I'd really like to find out more info on. Is ATC following some "written orders" to this effect? If so, I'd love to see a copy of the internal ATC memorandum that lays it all out....... maybe some GA friendly ATC person could leak it anonymously. Or - and this may be more likely - is the preferential treatment for airliners more the result of some informal "attitude" being promoted within the FAA/ATC and being promulgated informally, without an official edict. Enquiring mimes would love to know.

 

[cldsfr79]

So I'm doing 250 inbound to the field when Southwest checks on. I can see on TCAS that he's further from the field than we are, and I KNOW he's limited to 250, just like all the rest of God's creatures below 10k.

I think there is a reg somewhere that states SWA doesnt have to slow below 10k.

When I used to fly a turbo-prop into midway, we would be doing 250 knots inbound at 5 or 6 thousand. Then, looking up, we would see a southwest 73, only a thousand above us, passing us like we were standing still.

Maybe they just always find a tailwind in every direction?

 

[temcgrew]

I think there is a reg somewhere that states SWA doesnt have to slow below 10k.

When I used to fly a turbo-prop into midway, we would be doing 250 knots inbound at 5 or 6 thousand. Then, looking up, we would see a southwest 73, only a thousand above us, passing us like we were standing still.

Maybe they just always find a tailwind in every direction?

I think the regs read that they should only be below 250 for Taxiing,

 

[ATCT]

Alright looks like some people have some serious problems as pilots in this forum.

#1 it is first come first serve to the extent it does not slow down traffic. A KingAir 200 is a great plane on final, I'll work it with jets all day long with no problem. On departure is the kicker. You're slow, you climb slow, and I can top you all day long with 737's. Now RJ's...depending on the type/distance its going/temperature/winds thats iffy. There are times when a BE20 will outclimb an E145.

Regarding SOCAL, MDW, etc. I cant really say what goes on there. I work at a busy tower (top 10) with mainly airline and large G/A. I rarely see anything smaller than a BE20. (And frankly, unless its something quick like a MU2...I dont want to see it!).

The general standard is, as long as you can go 170kts down the final, you shouldnt have a problem. The only kicker there is wake turbulence. I can put a 737 behind another 737 3 miles in trail because both are Large aircraft. A BE20 (or LJ35, C501, C750, MU2, F2TH etc.) are small aircraft. (In terms of weight category). They require greater in trail seperation behind the 737 (or even greater if behind a 757 or a Heavy).

You're going to run into all kinds of controllers out there. Most of the workforce has 15+ years of experience, and most of the workforce knows how to churn out airplanes to get everyone out and in as fast as possible. The problem is, there is about 5% that just lolly gag through the day. I cant do anything about them. The rest of just want ya outt our airspace! (the faster you're outta my airspace...the faster you're on your way to wherever you're going!!!)

ATCT
(PS: If you talk to me on the radio, Im a pretty nice guy, sorry if I pissed off some people, but ATC overrides my pilot instincts)

 

[ATCT]

This post is purely unofficial in all sense of the word.

Southwest has a reputation among controllers of being staffed by good pilots, who fly their airplane (No autothrottle, crappy turns etc.) and do what we ask 99% of the time before we're even unkeying our mike. There are other airlines out there that give us a bad taste. As humans, they screw up more than anyone else (or I should say they dont do what we ask to the capability they should) so the natural reaction is, theyre going to get slighted. As a human, im going to help out the person who helps me out in return.

Being totally unofficially, it doesnt hurt to call the tower at your home airport, let them know you said hi, see if you can drop off some brownies at christmas etc. Just be human. 99% of us just want to get you on your way!

 

[Say Again Over]

ATCT, not trying to flame you but some airlines actually have SOP's that they are required to follow, that's where not being an experienced pilot comes into play. It doesn't have anything to do with pilot experience or ability.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

I am going to toss in a few thoughts here.

There is one particular event that hapened a few years ago when I was flying t-props that comes to me.
Enroute to PVD some time after 10pm local. We were about 10 min. from landing. We were doing about 240 - 245 KIAS (250 and the horn goes off) We had the field in sight in th distance. We were given a heading that cut across final about 90 degrees to get behind a NW 757 who was a bit farther out. We had to fly across localizer then do a 270 degree turn to rejoin. That put us about 4 miles behind a 757 with calm winds on field. We called the supervisor and asked why. The answer was that they really didnt think we could stay fast long enough. Now that I fly jets I notice that even though there is that 250 speed limit that props slow down quicker in front of us and fly slower app speeds.
Southwest gets preferred treatment everywhere. I think they get paid extra if they arrive before schedule block.
I think airlines should get preferred treatment at Class C & B airports. They pay higher user fees, and they have schedules to stay on. Also, they have to contend with ramp congestion that private planes do not. Oh and airline pilots commute for the most part and many times a few minutes means the difference between making a flight or spending the night.