Turboprop vs. Jet below 10,000'

[temcgrew]

I think there is a reg somewhere that states SWA doesnt have to slow below 10k.

When I used to fly a turbo-prop into midway, we would be doing 250 knots inbound at 5 or 6 thousand. Then, looking up, we would see a southwest 73, only a thousand above us, passing us like we were standing still.

Maybe they just always find a tailwind in every direction?

I think the regs read that they should only be below 250 for Taxiing,

 

[ATCT]

Alright looks like some people have some serious problems as pilots in this forum.

#1 it is first come first serve to the extent it does not slow down traffic. A KingAir 200 is a great plane on final, I'll work it with jets all day long with no problem. On departure is the kicker. You're slow, you climb slow, and I can top you all day long with 737's. Now RJ's...depending on the type/distance its going/temperature/winds thats iffy. There are times when a BE20 will outclimb an E145.

Regarding SOCAL, MDW, etc. I cant really say what goes on there. I work at a busy tower (top 10) with mainly airline and large G/A. I rarely see anything smaller than a BE20. (And frankly, unless its something quick like a MU2...I dont want to see it!).

The general standard is, as long as you can go 170kts down the final, you shouldnt have a problem. The only kicker there is wake turbulence. I can put a 737 behind another 737 3 miles in trail because both are Large aircraft. A BE20 (or LJ35, C501, C750, MU2, F2TH etc.) are small aircraft. (In terms of weight category). They require greater in trail seperation behind the 737 (or even greater if behind a 757 or a Heavy).

You're going to run into all kinds of controllers out there. Most of the workforce has 15+ years of experience, and most of the workforce knows how to churn out airplanes to get everyone out and in as fast as possible. The problem is, there is about 5% that just lolly gag through the day. I cant do anything about them. The rest of just want ya outt our airspace! (the faster you're outta my airspace...the faster you're on your way to wherever you're going!!!)

ATCT
(PS: If you talk to me on the radio, Im a pretty nice guy, sorry if I pissed off some people, but ATC overrides my pilot instincts)

 

[ATCT]

This post is purely unofficial in all sense of the word.

Southwest has a reputation among controllers of being staffed by good pilots, who fly their airplane (No autothrottle, crappy turns etc.) and do what we ask 99% of the time before we're even unkeying our mike. There are other airlines out there that give us a bad taste. As humans, they screw up more than anyone else (or I should say they dont do what we ask to the capability they should) so the natural reaction is, theyre going to get slighted. As a human, im going to help out the person who helps me out in return.

Being totally unofficially, it doesnt hurt to call the tower at your home airport, let them know you said hi, see if you can drop off some brownies at christmas etc. Just be human. 99% of us just want to get you on your way!

 

[Say Again Over]

ATCT, not trying to flame you but some airlines actually have SOP's that they are required to follow, that's where not being an experienced pilot comes into play. It doesn't have anything to do with pilot experience or ability.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

I am going to toss in a few thoughts here.

There is one particular event that hapened a few years ago when I was flying t-props that comes to me.
Enroute to PVD some time after 10pm local. We were about 10 min. from landing. We were doing about 240 - 245 KIAS (250 and the horn goes off) We had the field in sight in th distance. We were given a heading that cut across final about 90 degrees to get behind a NW 757 who was a bit farther out. We had to fly across localizer then do a 270 degree turn to rejoin. That put us about 4 miles behind a 757 with calm winds on field. We called the supervisor and asked why. The answer was that they really didnt think we could stay fast long enough. Now that I fly jets I notice that even though there is that 250 speed limit that props slow down quicker in front of us and fly slower app speeds.
Southwest gets preferred treatment everywhere. I think they get paid extra if they arrive before schedule block.
I think airlines should get preferred treatment at Class C & B airports. They pay higher user fees, and they have schedules to stay on. Also, they have to contend with ramp congestion that private planes do not. Oh and airline pilots commute for the most part and many times a few minutes means the difference between making a flight or spending the night.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Like it or not, this is the reality of today. The airlines have convinced (or bribed) FAA management into giving their flights priority whether they need it or not. Don't blame ATC controllers for this, they're just following orders.

If this is true I don't see it. Our supervisors just tell us to keep the planes moving. We don't care if your a 747-400 or a Kingair, you get in line with everyone else, go when its your turn. The only time planes get to cut in line with us is when we can only launch a certain amount of planes to a given fix or number of fixes. If we have 2 East tracks running with 4 east fixes and we are given a 7 mile restriction, We will launch the 1st plane in line to its East fix, the 2nd plane in line is the 2nd track going to another east fix, etc..... We have to split you all up for Departure so they can split you up for enroute. Not exactly what the thread is implying but like usual, even though Im a pilot, I don't know whats going on in that cockpit, and you don't know whats going on up stairs. There are no vendetas. SWA doesn't get priority.....well not at my airport, we don't work them MDW does. I can assure you, our job is seperating airplanes, not making friends. I haven't seen an airline deliever a pizza yet.....

 

[ATCT]

I haven't seen an airline deliever a pizza yet.....

Haha true true. (I also dont work SWA...im at the other Houston airport...and no not Hooks!)

Basically, I cant say for what my collegues do, but what I do is try to get the most amount of airplanes out in any given time, as safely as possible. I'll delay a KingAir 3 spots in the line so I can get some aircraft (possibly an airliner, maybe a Cessna 172) out quicker and in general make everything run smoothly. Not only do we ensure safe and orderly flows of traffic, but it has to be efficient!

ATCT

 

[ATCT]

ATCT, not trying to flame you but some airlines actually have SOP's that they are required to follow, that's where not being an experienced pilot comes into play. It doesn't have anything to do with pilot experience or ability.

I understand this, but it comes down to a point as a controller I gotta take into account that certain airlines (not the pilots) make them do certain things. I will move that aircraft/airline/operator/individual so that they do not slow down my operation. If that means to the end of the line, so be it. I do not mean any offence to any of their pilots, but some SOP's should be changed. (Taxiing Slow, not using brakes-reverse thrust, etc. are some examples).

ATCT

 

[sinkrate]

You must not have been in MEM

So I'm doing 250 inbound to the field when Southwest checks on. I can see on TCAS that he's further from the field than we are, and I KNOW he's limited to 250, just like all the rest of God's creatures below 10k. Both of us are headed direct to the field when ATC gives us, the turboprop, a 45 degree deviation to follow the jet.

It happens EVERY TIME, even if they're 5 or 10 miles behind us! We have these wicked speed brakes called "propellers", landing gear, and flaps. Heck, we can even slip it if we gotta. We routinely do 250 to the marker and only JUST hit our Vapp at 500' just as our FLOP calls for in a VFR stabilized approach. But when we're given the headings to follow the traffic, we end up having to hit the breaks and slow to 130kts on base to avoid getting a tour of the rest of the state.

What gives? This is starting to rub me raw.

Shy

Wing tip to wing tip (at different gates)inbound to MEM with APP Cntrl. The controler gives us 250 to the marker and when he checks on the FedEx MD11 a vector for 'faster traffic'. The purple pilots whines so the controller tells him 'OK you are now number one for the final fix, you are cleared direct and maintain 250 knots to the 5 mile final'. The purple pilot whines some more about you can't slow a heavy down in that distance and he will slow on the ten mile final. The controller comes back "Ok like I said the first time - turn right, this time 90 degrees to follow faster traffic cause the Saab is going to do 250 to the four mile final and make the first turn off." The next purple voice was a different pilot.

 

[msw]

I'll delay a KingAir 3 spots in the line so I can get some aircraft (possibly an airliner, maybe a Cessna 172) out quicker and in general make everything run smoothly. ATCT

And I imagine this is the mindset of most controller's today who are working busy airports or TRACONS with a good-sized mix of airline, corporate jets and T-Props, and little GA airplanes. And you confirm my original point: Although somewhere in the bowels of the FAA's original ATC mandates/philosophy is (or at least, was, once upon a time) the concept of "First Come, First Served", that concept is being ignored more and more every day, generally in favor of the airlines, and to the detriment of everyone else. So what we end up with, in actuality, is .......... Move the Big Iron and we'll get to everyone else "next", when we can.

Where do you work, ATCT? If all it takes is a pizza to get you to show a little "First Come, First Served Fairness", I'll bring you one next time I fly through your area. You want pepperoni and sausage, or are you more a veggie pizza kind of guy?

 

[ATCT]

And I imagine this is the mindset of most controller's today who are working busy airports or TRACONS with a good-sized mix of airline, corporate jets and T-Props, and little GA airplanes. And you confirm my original point: Although somewhere in the bowels of the FAA's original ATC mandates/philosophy is (or at least, was, once upon a time) the concept of "First Come, First Served", that concept is being ignored more and more every day, generally in favor of the airlines, and to the detriment of everyone else. So what we end up with, in actuality, is .......... Move the Big Iron and we'll get to everyone else "next", when we can.

Where do you work, ATCT? If all it takes is a pizza to get you to show a little "First Come, First Served Fairness", I'll bring you one next time I fly through your area. You want pepperoni and sausage, or are you more a veggie pizza kind of guy?

The whole time I, and my father before me, have been controllers, we have been about the Safe, Orderly, and Expeditious (they use the word efficient now instead) flow of air traffic. First Come, First Serve is a general guideline we use when dealing with aircraft. We use this when having to deal with aircraft on the runway, in the air, and on the ground. I deal with aircraft at my runways first, IFR aircraft requesting service next, then VFR aircraft. I do not believe you will find that I said Beech, Boeing, Cessna, Airbus, or Piper. I, and other controllers, take into effect direction of flight, aircraft characteristics, departure-arrival procedures, VFR-IFR, weather conditions... next in our job to get you out as fast as possible. The conditions are endless. I bet people make mistakes at times, but let me know of one pilot or controller who hasnt. Im sorry that you lack experience in these matters of what goes in in the NAS, ATO, and at large airports. Go sit a sector on a busy final position, final monitor, local control, or flight data during re-routes. You will learn alot, like we used to by riding jumpseats. We cant do that anymore, but ya'll can still come visit facilities. Give the local facility manager a call, and there is a good chance that with advance notice, you can visit a busy facility (preferably something in the top 10 busiests) and watch the controllers and pilots at work. You'll learn alot.

Keep the blue side up and green between.

ATCT

(When you're in town next, we'll go for a plane ride...and split a pizza. Personally, Pizza Hut thin with Chicken is the best)

 

[msw]

Im sorry that you lack experience in these matters of what goes in in the NAS, ATO, and at large airports. Go sit a sector on a busy final position, final monitor, local control, or flight data during re-routes........ You'll learn alot.

Been there, done that, numerous times in my 35+ years of flying all over the USA (including stops at a few reasonable sized airports like JFK, LGA, BOS, DFW, LAX, SFO, etc etc etc). But, hey, what do I know, when the biggest thing I've ever flown is a King Air 350. I dunno, maybe I'm gettin too old, I remember the old PATCO controllers, and they seemed to always be helpful to everyone, and never had an "attitude" like a lot of the controllers today. ATCT, I think a good number of your peers forget that ATC is a support function for PILOTS and AIRCRAFT; it is ATC's job to make OUR aviation "life" easier, more efficient, and safe, not the other way around.

 

[dickburns]

I'm not sure where people on here get the opinion that ATCs favor the Airlines. Believe it or not, the UNOFFICIAL opinion is in favor of GA guys and to screw the airlines (ie Continental) since they're often responsible for most of the delays and volume issues. Why are there routine delays, everyday, to Newark and the New York metro? That's because Continental schedules all their flights to arrive at the same time, and they seem to hold EVERYDAY.

Also, regarding Southwest. It seems like the Southwest guys have a reputation for climbing expeditiously, turning on time, being responsive on the radios, etc, so I'd assume that might instill some confidence in the controllers to count on them. All too often it seems to be the regional drivers that get confused on a clearance, have to be called 4 times for a freq change, don't use their call-sign in their readbacks, etc. Too many kids in the regionals that are fresh out of a 172 and with 12 hrs in a Seminole doing Vmc Demos in the practice area and engie out (errr, idle!) ILSs in VFR.

 

[ATCT]

Ahh the PATCO card., I fully understand where you are coming from now. You are a cranky, disgruntled pilot. Im sorry that I tried to explain the system to you. I see now that it was a useless waste of my time. Ohh, and have a great flight!

ATCT

 

[100-1/2]

As an owner-operator, I pay nearly 75 cents per gallon in taxes to pay for your pony-tail-toting ego!

Buy your own damn pizza and brownies and leave my a$$ alone and first in line where I belong. I am going to have my passengers and their bags in their rental cars and sipping coffee before anyone else turns their 10 mile final because some lame-a$$ pax wouldnt come out of the lav in time.

affectionately,

100-1/2