TSA WARNING: Commuters must be in Uniform

[VWDrvr21]

I guess your history class wasn't that good either. The US also tested nuclear weapons on its soldiers ans citizens. Oh and infectious diseases too. Ever heard of the Tuskegee experiment?

Taste of Freedom and Capitalism? Wave that flag kid. Got any other campaign buzzwords for us?

You are ranting like a moron and your posts aren't even making sense anymore. Give up.

"give up." Your side's solution to everything. Something really to be proud of. Sissy.

 

[John Pennekamp]

"give up." Your side's solution to everything. Something really to be proud of. Sissy.

Yep, I'm a "sissy".

And apparently the world to you and your buddy G "Dubya" Bush is the 5th grade playground.

And you're both the bullies.

Carry on.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Faith in the our government? The CIA? Let's see...

Slavery. Yeah great idea.

Kill all the "Injuns" if they won't leave "our" land. God gave us a right to take this land from coast to coast!

Great depression. Caused by robber barons who built our economy into a house of cards while the government looked the other way.

"Surprise" attack at Pearl Harbor. Guess the radar wasn't that good that day. Right. We enter WWII

Japanese interment. Yeah good call.

Cold War. Gotta defeat the "evil empire". Let's hold the world hostage for 40 years under the threat of nuclear annhailation.

Failed attempts to assinate several world leaders, including Castro. Bay of Pigs, yeah, good one.

Cuban missile crisis. Way to go CIA! We were 6 hours from being nuked.

Vietnam. How'd THAT one turn out?

Haiti/Somalia (since you brought it up earlier). Good call.

9/11: We declare war on "terrorism". Orwell's prophesized World War III ensues. Patriot Act passes, Americans lose more rights with the stroke of a pen than ever in the history of this nation. TSA is created, a modern Gestapo with unlimited power to declare ANYBODY a terrorist without right to appeal, and no oversight. Intended to oversee transportation security, but then given full authority nationwide as the Department of Homeland Security's police force. Government capitalizes on people's fear after 9/11 and focuses them on the "enemy" so that they won't notice the huge power grab under way . "Either you're with us or against us". Secret prisons in Guantanamo Bay Cuba. Foreign nationals, and even American citizens held indefinitely without due process. Reports of worldwide torture of suspected terrorists and "renditions" under the auspices of the CIA. "Faulty intelligence" about Saddam's WMDs leads to the war in Iraq.

So what were you saying about trusting the government and the CIA? It seems their record aint too good, especially after 9/11.

I had some sympathy for your point of view right up until this post. I would respectfully submit that you are using history out of context... A little "proof texting," if you will.

Slavery: Not the idea of the American government, but an institution that can be traced back to the earliest days of Western civilization (Romans, Greeks, even the Etruscans). Our founding fathers simply didn't know how to deal with the issue, considering it an intractable economic and moral problem. Jefferson said, "slavery is like holding a wolf by the ears, you don't like it but you dare not let it go." That sums up pre abolition movement attitudes quite nicely.

The "Injuns": Displacement of the Native Americans was wrong and unjust by any measure... That is by OUR measure TODAY. Applying modern day ethics and attitudes to the early 1800's principle of "Manifest Destiny" is to be ignorant of the context under which those policies were made. National expansion in the age of exploration (and beyond) ALWAYS included the displacement of native peoples. Applying our views today to that time imparts a philosophy of justice on our ancestors that simply did not exist at the time. Context is everything in history.

Depression: You and I agree here pretty much. Lots of blame to go around.

Pearl Harbor: Yeah, and you probably think I am the second gunman on the grassy knoll too.

Japanese internment: Agreed, mostly. Proof that even democracies can knee jerk into bad decisions. Remember, however, that some of the most revered figures in American history have fuzzy records when it comes to human rights. Even good old Abe suspended Habeus Corpus and imprisoned folks without trial during the Civil War. Had the Union been dissolved as a result, how would history have judged him? Could and arguement be made that those sorts of actions were necessary in both the Civil War and WWII? Open to debate I say...

Cold War, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs etc: Big disagreement here. Nukes and proxy wars did serve a purpose. The concept of MAD ensured that the superpowers didn't push the button and destroy all human life... Deterence works! Had Nuclear war been deemed winable, I doubt very much that we would have made it out of the 1980's. Proxy wars in Vietam and elsewhere acted as a relief valve for international tensions. As bad as those conflicts (especially Vietnam) were, it was better than nukes and Soviet tanks charging throught the Fulda Gap.

Post 9/11: Remains to be seen I say. The American public has a good history to removing leaders who have overstepped thier authority, which I agree Bush has done. I think calling the TSA a "modern Gestapo" is a little overblown. Remember that other nations are not beholden to the same ideals or scrutiny our leaders are, so it is a healthy sign that things like Gitmo and renditions can even be openly debated. If this was truly Orwellian, then we wouldn't know a thing... Or care. I suspect that history and the nine wise men/woman on the Supreme Court will judge this administration harshly on those accounts. It will simply take time.

My point in all of this? While I appreciate your sentiments, your black and white use of history to defend your views is overly simplistic and out of context. History and governments operate in shades of grey and often the opporunity to judge objectively doesn't occur until well after the fact.

 

[VWDrvr21]

I had some sympathy for your point of view right up until this post. I would respectfully submit that you are using history out of context... A little "proof texting," if you will.

Slavery: Not the idea of the American government, but an institution that can be traced back to the earliest days of Western civilization (Romans, Greeks, even the Etruscans). Our founding fathers simply didn't know how to deal with the issue, considering it an intractable economic and moral problem. Jefferson said, "slavery is like holding a wolf by the ears, you don't like it but you dare not let it go." That sums up pre abolition movement attitudes quite nicely.

The "Injuns": Displacement of the Native Americans was wrong and unjust by any measure... That is by OUR measure TODAY. Applying modern day ethics and attitudes to the early 1800's principle of "Manifest Destiny" is to be ignorant of the context under which those policies were made. National expansion in the age of exploration (and beyond) ALWAYS included the displacement of native peoples. Applying our views today to that time imparts a philosophy of justice on our ancestors that simply did not exist at the time. Context is everything in history.

Depression: You and I agree here pretty much. Lots of blame to go around.

Pearl Harbor: Yeah, and you probably think I am the second gunman on the grassy knoll too.

Japanese internment: Agreed, mostly. Proof that even democracies can knee jerk into bad decisions. Remember, however, that some of the most revered figures in American history have fuzzy records when it comes to human rights. Even good old Abe suspended Habeus Corpus and imprisoned folks without trial during the Civil War. Had the Union been dissolved as a result, how would history have judged him? Could and arguement be made that those sorts of actions were necessary in both the Civil War and WWII? Open to debate I say...

Cold War, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs etc: Big disagreement here. Nukes and proxy wars did serve a purpose. The concept of MAD ensured that the superpowers didn't push the button and destroy all human life... Deterence works! Had Nuclear war been deemed winable, I doubt very much that we would have made it out of the 1980's. Proxy wars in Vietam and elsewhere acted as a relief valve for international tensions. As bad as those conflicts (especially Vietnam) were, it was better than nukes and Soviet tanks charging throught the Fulda Gap.

Post 9/11: Remains to be seen I say. The American public has a good history to removing leaders who have overstepped thier authority, which I agree Bush has done. I think calling the TSA a "modern Gestapo" is a little overblown. Remember that other nations are not beholden to the same ideals or scrutiny our leaders are, so it is a healthy sign that things like Gitmo and renditions can even be openly debated. If this was truly Orwellian, then we wouldn't know a thing... Or care. I suspect that history and the nine wise men/woman on the Supreme Court will judge this administration harshly on those accounts. It will simply take time.

My point in all of this? While I appreciate your sentiments, your black and white use of history to defend your views is overly simplistic and out of context. History and governments operate in shades of grey and often the opporunity to judge objectively doesn't occur until well after the fact.

Nicely put.

 

[acaTerry]

Penenkamp, I just have to say...you are a flamin' liberal. Burying your head in the sand will not make problems go away. In today's world you can't live by the "leave them alone and they'll leave us alone" adage. For example...GLASGOW YESTERDAY. What role has Scotland played in Iraq? N-O-N-E.
The simple fact is that there are 2 types of people in the world: Muslims and infidels. And the Koran (yes, I read it, not cover to cover, but enough to know) says that in the name of Allah, the infidels must die or be, in simpler terms, dogs.
Keep listening to John Lennon songs.

 

[John Pennekamp]

For example...GLASGOW YESTERDAY. What role has Scotland played in Iraq? N-O-N-E.

Last I checked, Scotland was part of Great Britain, who is the #2 partner n the Iraq war. You went to public school, didn't you?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Nicely put.

You have no right to attaboy him. You couldn't have come up with that if I wrote it for you. I still await YOUR response.

 

[VWDrvr21]

You have no right to attaboy him. You couldn't have come up with that if I wrote it for you. I still await YOUR response.

I still think your a big sissy-hiding behind your communist/ socialist views. And judging by the amount of posts by you on this website, you dont get laid much either.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Liberals are good everyone should own one!

 

[arthompson]

9/11: TSA is created, a modern Gestapo with unlimited power to declare ANYBODY a terrorist without right to appeal, and no oversight. Intended to oversee transportation security, but then given full authority nationwide as the Department of Homeland Security's police force. "Either you're with us or against us". Secret prisons in Guantanamo Bay Cuba.

DHS has multiple law enforcement agencies under it, to include the USCG, and Customs and Border Protection. TSA is only allowed to deal with transportation issues. As for Guantanamo....well I think the fact that we're talking about kinda keeps it from being secret. Though we may have a different definition of secret