Travis Barker - 4 killed, 2 hurt as rock star's jet crashes

[LRvsH25B]

Bucket on the left engine appears stowed...

The reverse thrust system on the 60, which incorperates the FADEC, is one of the few things I HATED about the aircraft. The nit-wit(s) who designed it, thought they were really doing something when they made it so the amount of thrust you received was predicated on your forward speed. As the 60 slows, the FADEC automatically reduces the amount of thrust on its own, no matter where the piggy-backs are. If your brakes failed and you were about to roll off the end of the runway, putting the piggy-backs to the aft stops will just ease the airplane off the end instead of reverse the trend and stop your forward movement. Makes no sense to me at all. It's been 10 years since I have flown the 60, so maybe that has been changed, but I don't think it has.

Well Done Sarah and James; I'm sorry that it had to come down to this. I suspect we're going to find that you were doomed the second you gave it 3 clicks and let 'er go.

RIP for the crew and Barker's staff members. No doubt, their family's have a tough road in front of them, and we, as professional flight crews, all have some learning to do as the details come out; I am quite certain though, that the information exchange will not be worth its cost.

 

[400A]

I always thought lear missed the Boat on that Airplane. I always thought they should pul a Cessna and slide the 45's Wing complete with gear and brakes under that set up. That would be one Bad Bird.

Shocked to hear T/R's are limited on an aircraft with that poor of a break system.

I know VREF is normally around 140, What Ball park would V1 be in that situation?

 

[LRvsH25B]

I always thought lear missed the Boat on that Airplane. I always thought they should pul a Cessna and slide the 45's Wing complete with gear and brakes under that set up. That would be one Bad Bird.

Funny how a couple of blue collars like you and I can see that, but the "brains" over at Bombardier have let that fly right over their heads. I sure it is one of those situations where it's not a good idea because they didn't think of it!

 

[400A]

Funny how a couple of blue collars like you and I can see that, but the "brains" over at Bombardier have let that fly right over their heads. I sure it is one of those situations where it's not a good idea because they didn't think of it!

Even their salesmen think that.

 

[mxpilot2]

So do the demo pilots.

 

[CFIcare]

It's all about who is the lowest bidder on each design/component or what can be recycled from past models instead of paying for a re-engineer. The inertia of a jet that size, with those engines and V1 speeds for the weight....being stopped by piddly LR35 spec'd brakes and a "smart" FADEC T/R system...doesn't seem real smart to me, but what do I know.

All I know was that with the 55/60 this subject of successfully stopping the aircraft in various conditions and situations was always a hot topic at recurrent.

Sincere condolences to the family and friends of all those involved. RIP Sarah and James...

 

[Hung Start]

I always thought lear missed the Boat on that Airplane. I always thought they should pul a Cessna and slide the 45's Wing complete with gear and brakes under that set up. That would be one Bad Bird.

Shocked to hear T/R's are limited on an aircraft with that poor of a break system.

I know VREF is normally around 140, What Ball park would V1 be in that situation?

Since you asked,

Assuming they were pretty much close to gross weight, and a temp around +20, speeds are:

V1 132
VR 140
V2 147

Runway required 5590 ft

Thats with everything (T/R's, Antiskid, etc.) working.

Hung

 

[Basil]

I know VREF is normally around 140, What Ball park would V1 be in that situation?

Using the WX at the time of the accident...

23500 lbs (MTOW)

Flaps 8
V1 136
VR 145
V2 153
BFL 5882'

Flaps 20
V1 133
VR 140
V2 147
BFL 5492'

The AFM does NOT take T/Rs into consideration for performance computations (Wet/Contaminated Data does, however).

 

[Hung Start]

The reverse thrust system on the 60, which incorperates the FADEC, is one of the few things I HATED about the aircraft. The nit-wit(s) who designed it, thought they were really doing something when they made it so the amount of thrust you received was predicated on your forward speed. As the 60 slows, the FADEC automatically reduces the amount of thrust on its own, no matter where the piggy-backs are. If your brakes failed and you were about to roll off the end of the runway, putting the piggy-backs to the aft stops will just ease the airplane off the end instead of reverse the trend and stop your forward movement. Makes no sense to me at all. It's been 10 years since I have flown the 60, so maybe that has been changed, but I don't think it has. /quote]


Correct.

The FADEC's are scheduled to go from 85% N1 above 100 Knots sliding down to 50% N1 at 60 knots with TR's deployed.

The brakes and tires are the weak link. Our later 60XR's are equipt with 3 disc rotors rather than the standard 2 disc. Makes a noticable difference. Dumb thing is Bombardier will not publish new data, so we have to go with the original distances.

Hung

 

[momalley81]

The reverse thrust system on the 60, which incorperates the FADEC, is one of the few things I HATED about the aircraft. The nit-wit(s) who designed it, thought they were really doing something when they made it so the amount of thrust you received was predicated on your forward speed. As the 60 slows, the FADEC automatically reduces the amount of thrust on its own, no matter where the piggy-backs are. If your brakes failed and you were about to roll off the end of the runway, putting the piggy-backs to the aft stops will just ease the airplane off the end instead of reverse the trend and stop your forward movement. Makes no sense to me at all. It's been 10 years since I have flown the 60, so maybe that has been changed, but I don't think it has. /quote]


Correct.

The FADEC's are scheduled to go from 85% N1 above 100 Knots sliding down to 50% N1 at 60 knots with TR's deployed.

The brakes and tires are the weak link. Our later 60XR's are equipt with 3 disc rotors rather than the standard 2 disc. Makes a noticable difference. Dumb thing is Bombardier will not publish new data, so we have to go with the original distances.

Hung

Yeah, it may hurt the utility, but I'll take that little extra buffer in there, thank-you very much. Bombardier installed them in our non-XR a few months ago...