Travis Barker - 4 killed, 2 hurt as rock star's jet crashes

[LRvsH25B]

Bucket on the left engine appears stowed...

The reverse thrust system on the 60, which incorperates the FADEC, is one of the few things I HATED about the aircraft. The nit-wit(s) who designed it, thought they were really doing something when they made it so the amount of thrust you received was predicated on your forward speed. As the 60 slows, the FADEC automatically reduces the amount of thrust on its own, no matter where the piggy-backs are. If your brakes failed and you were about to roll off the end of the runway, putting the piggy-backs to the aft stops will just ease the airplane off the end instead of reverse the trend and stop your forward movement. Makes no sense to me at all. It's been 10 years since I have flown the 60, so maybe that has been changed, but I don't think it has.

Well Done Sarah and James; I'm sorry that it had to come down to this. I suspect we're going to find that you were doomed the second you gave it 3 clicks and let 'er go.

RIP for the crew and Barker's staff members. No doubt, their family's have a tough road in front of them, and we, as professional flight crews, all have some learning to do as the details come out; I am quite certain though, that the information exchange will not be worth its cost.

 

[400A]

I always thought lear missed the Boat on that Airplane. I always thought they should pul a Cessna and slide the 45's Wing complete with gear and brakes under that set up. That would be one Bad Bird.

Shocked to hear T/R's are limited on an aircraft with that poor of a break system.

I know VREF is normally around 140, What Ball park would V1 be in that situation?

 

[LRvsH25B]

I always thought lear missed the Boat on that Airplane. I always thought they should pul a Cessna and slide the 45's Wing complete with gear and brakes under that set up. That would be one Bad Bird.

Funny how a couple of blue collars like you and I can see that, but the "brains" over at Bombardier have let that fly right over their heads. I sure it is one of those situations where it's not a good idea because they didn't think of it!

 

[400A]

Funny how a couple of blue collars like you and I can see that, but the "brains" over at Bombardier have let that fly right over their heads. I sure it is one of those situations where it's not a good idea because they didn't think of it!

Even their salesmen think that.

 

[mxpilot2]

So do the demo pilots.

 

[CFIcare]

It's all about who is the lowest bidder on each design/component or what can be recycled from past models instead of paying for a re-engineer. The inertia of a jet that size, with those engines and V1 speeds for the weight....being stopped by piddly LR35 spec'd brakes and a "smart" FADEC T/R system...doesn't seem real smart to me, but what do I know.

All I know was that with the 55/60 this subject of successfully stopping the aircraft in various conditions and situations was always a hot topic at recurrent.

Sincere condolences to the family and friends of all those involved. RIP Sarah and James...

 

[Hung Start]

I always thought lear missed the Boat on that Airplane. I always thought they should pul a Cessna and slide the 45's Wing complete with gear and brakes under that set up. That would be one Bad Bird.

Shocked to hear T/R's are limited on an aircraft with that poor of a break system.

I know VREF is normally around 140, What Ball park would V1 be in that situation?

Since you asked,

Assuming they were pretty much close to gross weight, and a temp around +20, speeds are:

V1 132
VR 140
V2 147

Runway required 5590 ft

Thats with everything (T/R's, Antiskid, etc.) working.

Hung

 

[Basil]

I know VREF is normally around 140, What Ball park would V1 be in that situation?

Using the WX at the time of the accident...

23500 lbs (MTOW)

Flaps 8
V1 136
VR 145
V2 153
BFL 5882'

Flaps 20
V1 133
VR 140
V2 147
BFL 5492'

The AFM does NOT take T/Rs into consideration for performance computations (Wet/Contaminated Data does, however).

 

[Hung Start]

The reverse thrust system on the 60, which incorperates the FADEC, is one of the few things I HATED about the aircraft. The nit-wit(s) who designed it, thought they were really doing something when they made it so the amount of thrust you received was predicated on your forward speed. As the 60 slows, the FADEC automatically reduces the amount of thrust on its own, no matter where the piggy-backs are. If your brakes failed and you were about to roll off the end of the runway, putting the piggy-backs to the aft stops will just ease the airplane off the end instead of reverse the trend and stop your forward movement. Makes no sense to me at all. It's been 10 years since I have flown the 60, so maybe that has been changed, but I don't think it has. /quote]


Correct.

The FADEC's are scheduled to go from 85% N1 above 100 Knots sliding down to 50% N1 at 60 knots with TR's deployed.

The brakes and tires are the weak link. Our later 60XR's are equipt with 3 disc rotors rather than the standard 2 disc. Makes a noticable difference. Dumb thing is Bombardier will not publish new data, so we have to go with the original distances.

Hung

 

[momalley81]

The reverse thrust system on the 60, which incorperates the FADEC, is one of the few things I HATED about the aircraft. The nit-wit(s) who designed it, thought they were really doing something when they made it so the amount of thrust you received was predicated on your forward speed. As the 60 slows, the FADEC automatically reduces the amount of thrust on its own, no matter where the piggy-backs are. If your brakes failed and you were about to roll off the end of the runway, putting the piggy-backs to the aft stops will just ease the airplane off the end instead of reverse the trend and stop your forward movement. Makes no sense to me at all. It's been 10 years since I have flown the 60, so maybe that has been changed, but I don't think it has. /quote]


Correct.

The FADEC's are scheduled to go from 85% N1 above 100 Knots sliding down to 50% N1 at 60 knots with TR's deployed.

The brakes and tires are the weak link. Our later 60XR's are equipt with 3 disc rotors rather than the standard 2 disc. Makes a noticable difference. Dumb thing is Bombardier will not publish new data, so we have to go with the original distances.

Hung

Yeah, it may hurt the utility, but I'll take that little extra buffer in there, thank-you very much. Bombardier installed them in our non-XR a few months ago...

 

[JettBoii]

Engine fail?

 

[momalley81]

Engine fail?

In a 60?!? It ain't exactly a Seminole. Maybe if they both quit; a heavy 60 on one will still outclimb a CRJ. :laugh:

 

[LRvsH25B]

In a 60?!? It ain't exactly a Seminole. Maybe if they both quit; a heavy 60 on one will still outclimb a CRJ. :laugh:

Exactly, but I think he was going in the other direction of your statement. Because of that raw power, and make no mistake, the 60 has its fair share, if you come to fly without your "A" game and one rolls back on you (before V1 or Just After), you will in fact have your hands full; a 60 can get away from you with minimal ease.

Within the same situation, some people get in trouble with the auto re-light; the plane snaps to the L or R, the pilot stuffs the appropriate rudder input, and about the time the pilot gets it headed back twards the centerline, the auto-relight lights off the engine that rolled back (Power levers are still in the T/O detent so power will come right back), and now that rudder input you have in, just snapped you back past the centerline, and here we go again.

Granted that's not the norm, but in the 60, you'll see that in the sim more often than you'd think because it is so overpowered.

I remember climbing at Vmo/Mmo well into the 30s could be done with no effort at all; Only time I have ever climbed @ 12K FPM (lasted less than 20 seconds) was in a 60; only time I have ever gotten an overspeed warning on 1 engine in the sim on a hot/high day was in the 60; only time I've ever seen a sim partner Vmc an airplane in the sim was in the 60, and the only time I've ever really scared the SH!!T out of myself, was as a new captain (from DA50s) in the 60. Power Power Power

 

[BoilerUP]

Can any airplane really be overpowered?

If the LR60 is known to be overpowered, wouldn't the proper description be under-winged?

 

[mx284]

Sounds like a wheel assembly failure?? Have to see what the federales come up with. RIP those who didn't make it.

 

[Hung Start]

Can any airplane really be overpowered?

If the LR60 is known to be overpowered, wouldn't the proper description be under-winged?

Well, it is that. Would cruise right past .92 if it wasn't for the wing buzz.

Oh yeah,, and that silly mach horn.

Hung

 

[LR60BOY]

I've been told that............ if you position the rotary test switch to the "mach trim" position and push the test button, it will silence the horn. So I've heard.

I flew 60's for about 10 years. Completely agree with what was said earlier about the T/R and FADEC relationship! If I want full reverse, give me full reverse. Real curious as to what happened on this one.

RIP and Godspeed to everyone involved.

 

[LJ45]

A few years back I was a copilot on a Lear 31 and we had all four tires blow on takeoff.. about 10 Kts shy of V1 which resulted in a loss of directional control.. Once the tires blew, the wheel assembly hit the runway and shattered.. of course we didn't know at the time... had we not been on a 13,000ft rwy I don't think we would have survived. The wheels on the 60 are similar to the 31 ( if not the same). Just a Thought...

My thoughts are with the families... RIP

not to hijack the thread...but how did you blow all 4 tires?

 

[NYG-Flyer]

Feds determined FOD blew Right side Mains.. Then the Left Mains went about 2000 feet into the attempted stop. None of the Plugs blew... all the tires blew out the side wall. The initial Right side when it blew, dropped the wheel assembly onto the rwy.. and shattered.. No Brakes.. No Wheels... " D.O. Kept asking us.. the Acc. Stop..Acc.GO shows 4,300ft why did it take you 10,600 to stop..Duh.. No brakes or wheels.. No Directional Control..!!"

 

[Hung Start]

I've been told that............ if you position the rotary test switch to the "mach trim" position and push the test button, it will silence the horn. So I've heard.

I flew 60's for about 10 years. Completely agree with what was said earlier about the T/R and FADEC relationship! If I want full reverse, give me full reverse. Real curious as to what happened on this one.

RIP and Godspeed to everyone involved.

True about the test switch. But, whoever gets the horn has to buy that night. Gets expensive quickly!

Hung