transition from airline to part 91 corp. question

[Fly91]

The Gulfstream (with an aft galley) is almost impossible to load outside the CG envelope. Frankly, there is little need (Part 91) to prove you're loaded within the CG envelope, because there's a 99.9% probability that you are.

A Legacy, on the other hand, is a different story. If I have lots of folks and fuel in the aux tanks, I'm going to be checking to see where the CG is - Part 91 or 135. This particular airplane will bump the front limit rather easily.

The point is that even though you're not required to do a W&B form under Part 91, you ARE required to assure the airplane is operated within the design CG envelope. You may have a need someday to PROVE you were operating within the envelope. I'd at least have the forms handy. So this is something else for sonic340 to be thinking about with his Ultra operations.

I agree. Its like the Lears, basically impossible to load them out of CG. A pilot must know his plane and the needs for it, like you explained with the Legacy. We always have the forms with us.

 

[NGT]

Pretty simple. You do your own flight planning in that type of aircraft.

W&B: Some 91 ops do them and some don't. You don't have to.

That should be an amazingly easy and smooth transition for you. Literally, the hardest thing you'll encounter is that you now have to file your own flight plans. But they take all of 1 minute on fltplan.com.

Challenger 600 with 9 pax, 1 FA and 2 crew from TEB to MDW. Day trip with no bags.

No brainer, you do it all the time?

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20050208X00153&key=1

This aircraft was operated 135, so what your telling me is that part 91 the aircraft would have rotated and cleared the road and not hit the big strawberry? I never new the aircraft new it's own regulations.

My company flies a Global, Challengers, and Lears part 91 and we require a W&B for every leg.

Buy an Ultranav!

 

[ksu_aviator]

What do you mean by e-mail alerts?

?

E-mail alerts...e-mails that alert you to changes.

 

[Hawker800]

Ultranav will accomplish the W&B business for you. Check and see if they offer the model aircraft you will be flying. Works well for the Hawker.

 

[taxi1wire]

More Data for you

Dude,
You have been given a GOLD MINE of info! Here is my input to your new job:

1. Get your overflight permits setup with US Customs and get passenger lists from your Exec assistant and make sure at least one of those people is on your overflight permit. Update as necessary.
Pick the airports that will suit you best on the permit/request.
2. Set up a Universal Flight planning account. We use flight plan.com exclusively for domestic ops but on long legs we use Universal to check for best winds routes..Fltplan.com doesn't give you that. Also set up your fltplan.com account to allow you to file online...VERY HANDY FEATURE!
3. DEFINITELY set up Fuel club accounts!!! We save A TON of cash with CAA, and more and more FBO's are accepting this card!
4. Don't USE the Corp catering companies, aka RUDY'S..we use Jason's deli, the local supermarket for breakfast trays and Panera Bread for wraps, etc...passengers love it and you save a TON here! It adds up!
We are a bunch of 121 guys flying a G200 and a 604 and are having a blast while being smart and cognizant of our costs,

Good luck!!!

PV

 

[Fly91]

Challenger 600 with 9 pax, 1 FA and 2 crew from TEB to MDW. Day trip with no bags.

No brainer, you do it all the time?

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20050208X00153&key=1

This aircraft was operated 135, so what your telling me is that part 91 the aircraft would have rotated and cleared the road and not hit the big strawberry? I never new the aircraft new it's own regulations.

My company flies a Global, Challengers, and Lears part 91 and we require a W&B for every leg.

Buy an Ultranav!

Look, lets not get into the internet, play-on-words crap that usually happens.

If a pilot doesn't make sure his aircraft isn't going to perform like it needs to on a given day, they need to go drive a bus for a living.

Its not needed Part 91 by law. It is required Part 135 by law to be done on paper and faxed in for most 135 companies before departure. 91 pilots can do their W&B and performance calculations for themselves and depart. If you're company requires you to leave a paper copy somewhere before departure, great. You are the first 91 operation I've ever heard that would require that. My Global friends do it on the EFB's for themselves if they want to, they leave nothing behind as a record before departure, like 135 REQUIRES BY LAW.

Do pilots need to make sure they are within limits, yes. Do pilots need to do performance calculations for certain situations to make sure they are safe, yes. This goes without saying.

edit: I can't get that ntsb link to work, btw.

 

[XTW]

Its not needed Part 91 by law. It is required Part 135 by law to be done on paper

Point being, it is required by law for a Pt.91 operation to ensure that you are operating within W+B limits. Whether your particular operation requires you to, as a Pt.135 op does, leave a written copy in some form(left behind, mailed home, faxed home), is irrelevant. When the hearing is conducted, you will have to prove that you were operating within the designed envelope.


X

 

[Fly91]

Point being, it is required by law for a Pt.91 operation to ensure that you are operating within W+B limits. Whether your particular operation requires you to, as a Pt.135 op does, leave a written copy in some form(left behind, mailed home, faxed home), is irrelevant. When the hearing is conducted, you will have to prove that you were operating within the designed envelope.


X

FAA: Did you perform a W&B before Take-off.

Pilot: Yes, sir, we were good to go.

FAA: Where is it.

Pilot: I did it on the EFB and erased it. OR....I tossed it in the garbage after I did it.

FAA: Uh, OK, thank you.

Point is: 99% of Part 91 operators never do a W&B. Part 135 operators have to because they must actually fax or leave a copy behind, so there is a 100% guarantee there will be something in hand for the FAA to look at post incident/accident. There is no law in place saying a Part 91 operator has to do that. So when the FAA asks, "you did it and made sure everything was ok and then you threw it away." If they ramp you, "you were just getting ready to do it." Pretty simple.

And like I said before, I know operators of every kind of corporate jet from Lears to Globals to G550's.....none of them under Part 91 do W&B's before each flight.

And again, before some other brilliant pilot on here says it............"every pilot should always either "KNOW FOR A FACT" from experience that his aircraft is perfectly fine to fly, or do the computations necassary for a given scenario if the temp, PA, weights, runway lengths, blah, blah, blah MIGHT be in question.

Pretty simple isn't it.

OR, if you're one of those pilots that really never gets to know his aircraft, feel free to do a W&B every flight no matter what if you need to.

 

[NGT]

NTSB Identification: DCA05MA031.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
Nonscheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
Accident occurred Wednesday, February 02, 2005 in Teterboro, NJ
Probable Cause Approval Date: 2/1/2007
Aircraft: Bombardier CL-600-1A11, registration: N370V
Injuries: 4 Serious, 2 Minor, 7 Uninjured.
The Safety Board's full report is available at http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/publictn.htm. The Aircraft Accident Report number is NTSB/AAR-06/04.

On February 2, 2005, about 0718 eastern standard time, a Bombardier Challenger CL-600-1A11, N370V, ran off the departure end of runway 6 at Teterboro Airport (TEB), Teterboro, New Jersey, at a ground speed of about 110 knots; through an airport perimeter fence; across a six-lane highway (where it struck a vehicle); and into a parking lot before impacting a building. The two pilots were seriously injured, as were two occupants in the vehicle. The cabin aide, eight passengers, and one person in the building received minor injuries. The airplane was destroyed by impact forces and postimpact fire. The accident flight was an on-demand passenger charter flight from TEB to Chicago Midway Airport, Chicago, Illinois. The flight was subject to the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 135 and operated by Platinum Jet Management, LLC (PJM), Fort Lauderdale, Florida, under the auspices of a charter management agreement with Darby Aviation (Darby), Muscle Shoals, Alabama. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
the pilots' failure to ensure the airplane was loaded within weight and balance limits and their attempt to takeoff with the center of gravity well forward of the forward takeoff limit, which prevented the airplane from rotating at the intended rotation speed.

Contributing to the accident were: 1) PJM's conduct of charter flights (using PJM pilots and airplanes) without proper Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certification and its failure to ensure that all for-hire flights were conducted in accordance with 14 CFR Part 135 requirements; 2) Darby Aviation's failure to maintain operational control over 14 CFR Part 135 flights being conducted under its certificate by PJM, which resulted in an environment conducive to the development of systemic patterns of flight crew performance deficiencies like those observed in this accident; 3) the failure of the Birmingham, Alabama, FAA Flight Standards District Office to provide adequate surveillance and oversight of operations conducted under Darby's Part 135 certificate; and 4) the FAA's tacit approval of arrangements such as that between Darby and PJM.

Full narrative availableIndex for Feb2005 | Index of months

A recent large corporate jet accident completely based on a W&B issue. To tell people that if you go from 121/135 to 91 you don't need to do W&B is insulting to 91 pilots which I'm assuming you are. 91 requires you to operate within the limitations of your aircraft which includes the W&B envelope. If you don't carry a standard W&B template or perform one you are liable under careless/reckless ops if you have a hard copy or not.

Most jets require %MAC for S.E. climb trim for T/O. One more reason to do it every leg.

The list goes on and with reasons to do it and not one reason to skip it because you think you know the airplane.


Neither pilot properly checked the weight and balance before takeoff. "This accident clearly shows what can happen when crucial operating steps are not adhered to," said NTSB Chairman Mark Rosenker. "When it comes to transportation safety there are no shortcuts and it is important that operators and flight crews ensure that proper procedures are followed at all times."

That would look awesome on a resume!

 

[NotFurloughed]

Ditto to most everything said...

Cessna offers great programs for managing maintenance - and great software for W&B and performance.

I would go with whatever the previous owner used for maintenance tracking provided it's a CAMP or CESCOM type program.

For performance & W&B I would look into a CESNAV subscription. It provides A/C specific loading software as well as runway and cruise performance data.

If not, then definitely and ULTRANAV type program.

Definitely take the time to make some phone calls when you have questions. Especially since a few people already offered their time....

You will get some great advice from the people here...don't be afraid to ask.

We will all help in any way we can.