transition from airline to part 91 corp. question

[G100driver]

FAA: Did you perform a W&B before Take-off.

Pilot: Yes, sir, we were good to go.

FAA: Where is it.

Pilot: I did it on the EFB and erased it. OR....I tossed it in the garbage after I did it.

FAA: Uh, OK, thank you.

Point is: 99% of Part 91 operators never do a W&B. Part 135 operators have to because they must actually fax or leave a copy behind, so there is a 100% guarantee there will be something in hand for the FAA to look at post incident/accident. There is no law in place saying a Part 91 operator has to do that. So when the FAA asks, "you did it and made sure everything was ok and then you threw it away." If they ramp you, "you were just getting ready to do it." Pretty simple.

You are absolutly correct, in the US.

When operating within a foreign country ... ie ANYWHERE in Europe, you will need to be able to show that a W&B balance was perfomed prior to take-off and what exactly the W&B balance is of the aircraft.

When operating within the EU it is advisable that you conduct W&B much like you would operating 135 in the states, minus the mailing part. We use a GG graph for this purpose as Ultra Nav is not recognized by the euro feds.

 

[Fly91]

NTSB Identification: DCA05MA031.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
Nonscheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
Accident occurred Wednesday, February 02, 2005 in Teterboro, NJ
Probable Cause Approval Date: 2/1/2007
Aircraft: Bombardier CL-600-1A11, registration: N370V
Injuries: 4 Serious, 2 Minor, 7 Uninjured.
The Safety Board's full report is available at http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/publictn.htm. The Aircraft Accident Report number is NTSB/AAR-06/04.

On February 2, 2005, about 0718 eastern standard time, a Bombardier Challenger CL-600-1A11, N370V, ran off the departure end of runway 6 at Teterboro Airport (TEB), Teterboro, New Jersey, at a ground speed of about 110 knots; through an airport perimeter fence; across a six-lane highway (where it struck a vehicle); and into a parking lot before impacting a building. The two pilots were seriously injured, as were two occupants in the vehicle. The cabin aide, eight passengers, and one person in the building received minor injuries. The airplane was destroyed by impact forces and postimpact fire. The accident flight was an on-demand passenger charter flight from TEB to Chicago Midway Airport, Chicago, Illinois. The flight was subject to the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 135 and operated by Platinum Jet Management, LLC (PJM), Fort Lauderdale, Florida, under the auspices of a charter management agreement with Darby Aviation (Darby), Muscle Shoals, Alabama. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
the pilots' failure to ensure the airplane was loaded within weight and balance limits and their attempt to takeoff with the center of gravity well forward of the forward takeoff limit, which prevented the airplane from rotating at the intended rotation speed.

Contributing to the accident were: 1) PJM's conduct of charter flights (using PJM pilots and airplanes) without proper Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certification and its failure to ensure that all for-hire flights were conducted in accordance with 14 CFR Part 135 requirements; 2) Darby Aviation's failure to maintain operational control over 14 CFR Part 135 flights being conducted under its certificate by PJM, which resulted in an environment conducive to the development of systemic patterns of flight crew performance deficiencies like those observed in this accident; 3) the failure of the Birmingham, Alabama, FAA Flight Standards District Office to provide adequate surveillance and oversight of operations conducted under Darby's Part 135 certificate; and 4) the FAA's tacit approval of arrangements such as that between Darby and PJM.

Full narrative availableIndex for Feb2005 | Index of months

A recent large corporate jet accident completely based on a W&B issue. To tell people that if you go from 121/135 to 91 you don't need to do W&B is insulting to 91 pilots which I'm assuming you are. 91 requires you to operate within the limitations of your aircraft which includes the W&B envelope. If you don't carry a standard W&B template or perform one you are liable under careless/reckless ops if you have a hard copy or not.

Most jets require %MAC for S.E. climb trim for T/O. One more reason to do it every leg.

The list goes on and with reasons to do it and not one reason to skip it because you think you know the airplane.


Neither pilot properly checked the weight and balance before takeoff. "This accident clearly shows what can happen when crucial operating steps are not adhered to," said NTSB Chairman Mark Rosenker. "When it comes to transportation safety there are no shortcuts and it is important that operators and flight crews ensure that proper procedures are followed at all times."

That would look awesome on a resume!

In short, do W & B and performance calculations when you need to for safety. (As I've said multiple times in this thread already!!!) I think all of us pilots know that those Challenger pilots are complete fools and were asking for trouble. Hopefully their licenses get revoked for life.

If that Challenger had 2 passengers and was halfway filled with fuel, the pilots would have no reason to do a W&B or Performance check FOR SAFETY reasons, but they had to do it for 135 rules. Those idiots skipped them both. They are 100% at fault for NOT checking first for that load and that day. Period.

 

[Fly91]

You are absolutly correct, in the US.

When operating within a foreign country ... ie ANYWHERE in Europe, you will need to be able to show that a W&B balance was perfomed prior to take-off and what exactly the W&B balance is of the aircraft.

When operating within the EU it is advisable that you conduct W&B much like you would operating 135 in the states, minus the mailing part. We use a GG graph for this purpose as Ultra Nav is not recognized by the euro feds.

I know. But we're talking about domestic. But the same thing applies int'l. Are you going to do a W&B and Performance data check if you're repositioning a Gulfstream 550 to an airport 100 miles away with no passengers or baggage, and you are leaving from a 10,000 foot strip in 50* F weather at sea level????? Yeah, if you want to waste ink and paper. And AGAIN, if you get ramped you tell the fine feller you were just getting ready to do it. After you land if you get ramped, you did it and threw it away when you were done.

Until they REQUIRE, BY LAW, that a COPY be left at the departure airports' FBO for Part 91 operations....ain't nobody gonna do it!!! Its required that the crew determines the plane is safe, they say nothing about keeping copies or mailing copies or faxing copies. 135, they require that.

My buddy just got back from a 10-day trip throughout Europe, he fly's a Global, Part 91 op. I asked him if they do it. NEVER!!!! Maybe a pilot here or there will throw it into the EFB, but generally NEVER. Why??? They have 2-3 passengers at any one time. I asked my other friend who fly's for another Part 91 op (Global, BBJ, 604 and Lear 60) ....NEVER!!!!!!! I can go on and on.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

You'd be a moron to think a 747 operator skips the W&B forms, its a friggin cargo plane. Its kind of important. Corporate jets, not important unless you're an idiot pilot loading the plane like a retard.

Not one single Global or Gulfstream Part 91 operator I know of does W&B forms each time before departure. Or any other Part 91 operator for that matter in any aircraft.

oh?

Funny every Pt91 operator of Globals I know does!

We do it every Intl trip also..Global, Falcon, whatever...

Might be a good thing to have on a SAFA check. See how smooth the check goes if you say "we only have 2 or 3 pax, PT 91, dont need it, all my buds who fly Globals dont do it either, dude"



or just take the 12 second and print them out on ultranav?

 

[Fly91]

oh?

Funny every Pt91 operator of Globals I know does!

We do it every Intl trip also..Global, Falcon, whatever...

Might be a good thing to have on a SAFA check. See how smooth the check goes if you say "we only have 2 or 3 pax, PT 91, dont need it, all my buds who fly Globals dont do it either, dude"



or just take the 12 second and print them out on ultranav?

Read the entire thread before you post.

 

[NGT]

Don't do a W&B! Apparently 5 out of 6 Global pilots don't recommend it so it has be useless. I did not realize I was dealing with a human abacus. If nothing happens when you hear "rotate" one day please remember this argument on what little time you have remaining and try to miss the cars because the photo's will make all of our jobs harder that week.

http://home.earthlink.net/~martinrubin/id13.html

Don't lower the bar for 91.

 

[Fly91]

Don't do a W&B! Apparently 5 out of 6 Global pilots don't recommend it so it has be useless. I did not realize I was dealing with a human abacus. If nothing happens when you hear "rotate" one day please remember this argument on what little time you have remaining and try to miss the cars because the photo's will make all of our jobs harder that week.

http://home.earthlink.net/~martinrubin/id13.html

Don't lower the bar for 91.

You too, read the thread before you post.

And as far as the "bar" goes, 91 is a whole lot safer than 135.


.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

You too, read the thread before you post.

And as far as the "bar" goes, 91 is a whole lot safer than 135.


.

So, we all need to review the thread to learn why its a waste to do W&B on our Globals?Nobody does!...heck if all your contract buds say its a waste Im onboard too!

We dont use contract people, and I know that most aren't flaky enough to fly 9 legs around Europe with no considertion for a W&B and a ramp/safa check.

I agree, lets not set the 91 bar lower....

Fly91, you need to quit posting in a thread once its pretty clear you are way out of your league.

 

[Fly91]

So, we all need to review the thread to learn why its a waste to do W&B on our Globals?Nobody does!...heck if all your contract buds say its a waste Im onboard too!

We dont use contract people, and I know that most aren't flaky enough to fly 9 legs around Europe with no considertion for a W&B and a ramp/safa check.

I agree, lets not set the 91 bar lower....

Fly91, you need to quit posting in a thread once its pretty clear you are way out of your league.

Sorry, for you, maybe I should have said, "Read and Comprehend" the thread and the posts contained in that thread....before you post. You will save bandwidth and not waste our time.

 

[NCherches]

Now, now Nick... easy on us airline guys. Don't let us being spoiled by having dispatchers file flight plans make you think we don't know how things run.

If I remember correctly, last year you applied to become an airline pilot USAirways... would you appreciate airline pilots cutting you down by saying you don't know diddly squat about airlines, unions, seniority, bidding, flight attendants, large jets, standardization, CRM, ASAP/FSAP, so on and so forth? I didn't think so...

Just take it easy buddy... it's not rocket science. An airline pilot finding that corporate job might be, but the job itself is very far from it.

:beer:

I know plenty about flight attendants haha

 

[sonic340]

Wow, thanks again everyone! There is a ton of great information that you guys put out and I greatly appreciate it and the offers to help out......just as soon as I get done with this training!