Tranny ALPA MEC - Dragging their feet

[Empennage]

Our attorneys disagree with that one. Most scenarios that mirror recent arbitration decisions of close to relative seniority, then adjusting slightly for pay rate differences and adjust more heavily for retirements being heavily weighted on the SWA side come pretty close to a Date of Hire solution for our F/O's, which is a 12-18% loss of relative seniority, but better than the 26-34% this deal gives them.

Your attorneys may be saying something different, but all we can go by is the counsel we are being given which doesn't say anything close to "most AAI F/O's are on the bottom".

Just so you understand where JT and others are coming from.

Lear you need to add in the difference in staffing models (additional aai pilots) and an offset due to retirements.

Either way it is a moot point as all this is hypothectical.

 

[Lear70]

I mentioned the retirements, and staffing models haven't really come into play in arbitrator's decisions, although they might come into play afterwards in the integration talks per the Process Agreement.

Red, you're right, it's a big decision, and who knows what gets lost in the shuffle. Certainly our CA protections are nowhere NEAR as high as they are now, although I have my own thoughts on the ATL "protections", such as they are in SL9, but it's all hypothetical at this point.

Just hoping that the protections really DO materialize in our LoA and 4-party agreement, so we don't have to consider heading down that road... It's really up to GK what happens from here... as it always has been.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Would you or anyone really be that mad if you got only a 10% bump in seniority vs a 20+% bump overnight on the backs of the trannies? Think how long it took to get every 10% increase prior to this. Think of this only in terms of the deal you are getting not what someone else is, i.e. their pay raise. Just a question.

Again, I don't know where folks are getting this 20% seniority bump for SWA guys. I am getting 9%. Some guys are getting less. Even the SWA captains above all AAI guys are getting far less, like 6% or less. The bottom SWA FO is getting in the same neighborhood as I am, about 9%.

If you look at it from DOH, it's DOH-4 for some AAI folk, and much less, DOH-2 for many others. I know this will rub some here the wrong way, but that is not unreasonable. We have captains with 12 years getting mixed in with AAI guys with 14 years seniority. I don't know very many self-respecting pilots in this industry that would say that 14 years at Air Tran is the equivalent career-wise as 12 years at SWA. And an Air Tran captain with seven years under his belt at his company may feel hosed with his seniority being paired up with a four-year SWA FO, but getting that minimum $230,000/year paycheck ought to silence quite a bit of the angst, especially when he will be flying often with an FO who is his senior, and yet cannot foresee upgrading in the next few years, or possibly the next decade. And if it doesn't silence his angst, well, the AAI captain can choose quality of life, and go back to a top seniority FO, and still make more money (and have way better benefits) than he had at Air Tran. So he can choose pay or quality of life. SWA FOs cannot.

 

[GuppyWN]

I'm a DOH -2 guy and I get 8% - in 9 ********************ing years.

Until then I see every Airtran 717 pilot flying in his little bubble in OAK, LAS, DAL, HOU, MDW flying the same schedule he is now - with an extra $70k/yr in boat payments. I see the ATL trannies doing EXACTLY what they do today, with an extra $70k in boat payments.

So I see the trannies getting QOL AND pay.... until 2020.

Gup

 

[greenpilot]

Lear the latest Bloch ruling on masaba Pinnacle award Bloch did look at the staffing of each airline. I don't know if it will help us or hurt us but he does look at it.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm a DOH -2 guy and I get 8% - in 9 ********************ing years.

Until then I see every Airtran 717 pilot flying in his little bubble in OAK, LAS, DAL, HOU, MDW flying the same schedule he is now - with an extra $70k/yr in boat payments. I see the ATL trannies doing EXACTLY what they do today, with an extra $70k in boat payments.

So I see the trannies getting QOL AND pay.... until 2020.

Gup

Gup, you do realize that 40% of our pilots will be displaced from the base they have held their entire career, right?

And, once displaced from ATL, we will not have the seniority to hold a line or even a domicile (or maybe even our seat) for at least 4 years, maybe 10?

If I offered you $50K a year to make a two-leg commute to a reserve line in various junior bases, would you take it? If so, we need to talk, because have I got a deal for the Gup! imp:

 

[Lear70]

Lear the latest Bloch ruling on masaba Pinnacle award Bloch did look at the staffing of each airline. I don't know if it will help us or hurt us but he does look at it.

He quoted it, as well as quoting the better pay at MSA and PCL from Colgan...

Then he slotted the Colgan Captains right in with everyone else in a ratio pretty close to relative.

He paid it lip service, basically, as he did pay rates. The actual list didn't move very much from a standpoint of a mix of relative and DoH. The PCL and MSA guys are pretty torqued about it...

 

[Lear70]

Gup, you do realize that 40% of our pilots will be displaced from the base they have held their entire career, right?

It might be more displacements than that.

Read Par I.2 of Side Letter 9 and tell me how many PILOTS they have to base in ATL and WHEN they have to open an ATL domicile for the SWA side of our AAI transitioned pilots.

Then read Paragraphs F.1 and F.2 and tell me where you'll go if you bid into (or get displaced into) Southwest training as a 737 pilot (CA or FO) if there are no ATL vacancies when you come out of training because they haven't yet opened an ATL base on the SWA side of the "fence".

 

[Ty Webb]

It might be more displacements than that.

Read Par I.2 of Side Letter 9 and tell me how many PILOTS they have to base in ATL and WHEN they have to open an ATL domicile for the SWA side of our AAI transitioned pilots.

Then read Paragraphs F.1 and F.2 and tell me where you'll go if you bid into (or get displaced into) Southwest training as a 737 pilot (CA or FO) if there are no ATL vacancies when you come out of training because they haven't yet opened an ATL base on the SWA side of the "fence".

I'm trying not to ruin my evening, so how about a guess:


. . . . . East Purgatory, NJ?

 

[Full of LUV]

I'm a DOH -2 guy and I get 8% - in 9 ********************ing years.

Until then I see every Airtran 717 pilot flying in his little bubble in OAK, LAS, DAL, HOU, MDW flying the same schedule he is now - with an extra $70k/yr in boat payments. I see the ATL trannies doing EXACTLY what they do today, with an extra $70k in boat payments.

So I see the trannies getting QOL AND pay.... until 2020.

Gup

Gup,
Exactly, this is why SWAPA should have lobbied GK for contract enhancements (NEW JOINT CONTRACT) to even get the merger going, long before the SLI as the way DALPA did, that way the pilots of SWAPA don't get jealous over AAI's payraise to PAR, now SWAPA just wants enhancements off the backs of AAI and not from the company.
This will go down as the chief mistake that causes most of the disdain between the two pilot groups.....
LUV

 

[400ADude]

Morons:

If Atlanta goes to 850 pilots you're still going to be displaced even if all 1600 of you were put at the top of an 8000 pilot list.

Vote it down please! Do it!

 

[GuppyWN]

Lear and Ty,

I haven't been educated on the nuances yet. I do know the plan is to reduce ATL and get rid of MCO and MKE. Where and to what extent I have no idea.

I know one thing. Your group hasn't decided what to do yet. I'm sure they have spent every day with legal trying to figure out the details so until Monday we're all just guessing.

Their decision WILL be looked back upon as huge either way.
Gup

 

[madjack]

If I offered you $50K a year to make a two-leg commute to a reserve line in various junior bases, would you take it?

I would take that...

Hey Tranny's,

The economy blows and you are getting a raise...take the bucks...anything could happen between now and 2020...

 

[Music]

The economy blows and you are getting a raise...take the bucks...anything could happen between now and 2020...

Exactly why advocating a voting position (one way or the other) is premature at this point until we know what the FULL LANGUAGE is.

BTW, if I or anyone else is thinking about voting no in this economic environment, that should be enough to understand our concerns for SL9 and the agreement.

'Nuff said.

 

[greenpilot]

Ty, we will be displaced from our base no matter what happens. Swa is not going to keep the atl base the same size it is now. Without the c&r I bet even less of our pilots keep atl. The c&r give us priority in atl and keep atl at a min level. 60-70 % of our pilots commute I think most of those who live in atl will get to stay in atl.

 

[frqntflyr]

How many of you commute? I think we sent out some fancy packets to lots of addresses.

 

[dicko]

Ty, we will be displaced from our base no matter what happens. Swa is not going to keep the atl base the same size it is now. Without the c&r I bet even less of our pilots keep atl. The c&r give us priority in atl and keep atl at a min level. 60-70 % of our pilots commute I think most of those who live in atl will get to stay in atl.

I think you're wrong, but I hope you're right. The senior CA's that commute to ATL will no longer be senior at a SWA base.

An example;

Captain Homeboy was at 15% and is now at 45% system seniority. He can either take the blank or bottom line at the SWA base, or remain in the ATL and continue to slurp up life NOT ON F"KIN RESERVE .....

Those of us who live in ATL will then commute to reserve.

 

[Lear70]

How many of you commute? I think we sent out some fancy packets to lots of addresses.

Short answer: we don't know.

We USED to know back when EVERYONE was in ATL, but with the shift to MKE and MCO bases, that demographic has changed. It was a little over 70%, I think it's lower right now, about 80-90% of our CA's in MCO live there (or within driving distance like the Space Coast or TPA) and about 60-70% of our F/O's live there also.

MKE has a similar demographic (who would commute for 90% red-eyes and stand-ups??).

That has probably dropped the demographic considerably. However, closing MKE and the unknowns of what will happen with MCO, that number could stay steady (with all the other SWA bases absorbing the people who will come out of MKE and MCO) or drop somewhat (for the same reason).

A better question would probably be how many pilots live in ATL. That's what's going to suck for the junior people, you're going to have fairly senior folk like myself camping in ATL until our system seniority holds just as good (or better) of a line in another base like MCO, BWI, or MDW, whereby more junior F/O's who live in ATL will have to commute to reserve when their own city has a base they could sit at home on reserve. Just the realities of the airline world.

We'll deal with it, just want it to work as advertised in the AIP.

 

[Empennage]

Lear the latest Bloch ruling on masaba Pinnacle award Bloch did look at the staffing of each airline. I don't know if it will help us or hurt us but he does look at it.

Airtran not only has a much higher reserve percentage, but they also have a third set of crews (redeyes, cdos). Gary has said Swa will not take part in the additional third crew flying. His reason was not enough revenue versus costs.

You are fundamentally getting the doh minus via staffing and retirements. Hence the staggered blend and some guys getting doh minus 2 and some doh minus 4. Additionally there is the captain protection.

An arbitrator may elect to do all the above and consider it a doh integration. It's very hard to say. Again, it's all a moot point.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Ty, we will be displaced from our base no matter what happens. Swa is not going to keep the atl base the same size it is now. Without the c&r I bet even less of our pilots keep atl. The c&r give us priority in atl and keep atl at a min level. 60-70 % of our pilots commute I think most of those who live in atl will get to stay in atl.

If you guys have that many commuters, then you can't really complain about being dealt a commute to SWA bases.

Ty, you asked how we would like being dealt your hand. Admittedly, it's a tough question to answer due to the fact that I haven't worked at AAI and am not completely familiar with all the frustration you have had. (I did work at Mesa, if that counts for anything. Which it should.)

But I know enough about your pay and benefits (like how much you pay for health insurance) to know that losing a couple of years off of DOH and going onto reserve should really be a wash with the increase in pay and benefits, especially for your captains. Quality of life at SWA is truly unbelievable, with the way this company takes care of you. (Example: true story...When my grandmother passed away, I asked for some time off from a trip to attend the funeral. I not only got the time off, I got it off with pay, not out of my sick bank, and the chief pilots' office travelled myself, my wife, and my kids to and from the funeral, space positive. I challenge you to name another airline that would do that.)

I can say this. If I was in your captains' shoes, I'd be showing my wife the numbers and telling her we're moving to BWI (or MDW or HOU or etc.). Sitting reserve at SWA at a cool $230,000, plus picking up out of give-away or open time, is not a bad gig, especially if you live in base. It actually goes senior when we cycle through the lean flying times.

So, I've answered your question. How would you feel if you had been a SWA FO for the last 7 to 10 years, waited patiently for organic growth to resume after a three-year hiatus, and then were told your airline was going to grow by purchasing a smaller competitor, and then finally found out that all the captains at that competitor were going to come in and assume all the captain spots of the entire growth by acquisition, even sitting junior to you on that list?

You would not be pleased.

 

[dicko]

I can say this. If I was in your captains' shoes, I'd be showing my wife the numbers and telling her we're moving to BWI (or MDW or HOU or etc.). Sitting reserve at SWA at a cool $230,000, plus picking up out of give-away or open time, is not a bad gig, especially if you live in base. It actually goes senior when we cycle through the lean flying times.

Explain how you move to a base to sit reserve when you will always be the most junior reserve in the system ? To keep the seat you have to continuously move bases.

Honest question. Answer assuming a downgrade for 15 years is not going to happen please.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Explain how you move to a base to sit reserve when you will always be the most junior reserve in the system ? To keep the seat you have to continuously move bases.

Honest question. Answer assuming a downgrade for 15 years is not going to happen please.

That's a good point. Hopefully, you can move to a junior captain base, and it stays junior, preventing displacement. It is possible to get displaced here, especially if you choose a more senior captain base. (We have had quite a few MCO captains displaced up to BWI.)

Of course, this is assuming we do not see a net reduction in captains. If we do, the junior AAI captain can simply go back to FO in his base, if there is an increase in FOs on that vacancy bid. When the captain slots return, AAI guys get dibs over SWA guys. It's possible he could get displaced into an FO slot and then get recalled back to captain and never leave the same base.

 

[Ty Webb]

If you guys have that many commuters, then you can't really complain about being dealt a commute to SWA bases.

That would make sense, except that many of us went to AirTran because Atlanta was convenient to where we live. I live in the same zip code I did when I was hired ten years ago, and there are a lot of direct flights to ATL, and it's close enough to drive, even. We have moved extended family here, we have invested in this area . . . . I'm way past the point in my life of moving to make more money.

(Example: true story...When my grandmother passed away, I asked for some time off from a trip to attend the funeral. I not only got the time off, I got it off with pay, not out of my sick bank, and the chief pilots' office travelled myself, my wife, and my kids to and from the funeral, space positive. I challenge you to name another airline that would do that.)

I agree, that's very nice. We actually have paid bereavement for grandparents, as well, and they will positive space you if you ask. This company used to do many things like that for us, but it all changed about 5 or 6 years ago, but that's another story. We are ALL definitely looking forward to working for a company that values its employees. We deliver, and will deliver even harder with just a little encouragement (instead of the crew floggings we're accustomed to).

I can say this. If I was in your captains' shoes, I'd be showing my wife the numbers and telling her we're moving to BWI (or MDW or HOU or etc.). Sitting reserve at SWA at a cool $230,000, plus picking up out of give-away or open time, is not a bad gig, especially if you live in base. It actually goes senior when we cycle through the lean flying times.

Heh-heh . . . Yeah, we've had that converstaion . . .that ain't gonna work for now, as I mentioned. Maybe when our youngest graduates H.S. in 7 years.

So, I've answered your question. How would you feel if you had been a SWA FO for the last 7 to 10 years, waited patiently for organic growth to resume after a three-year hiatus, and then were told your airline was going to grow by purchasing a smaller competitor, and then finally found out that all the captains at that competitor were going to come in and assume all the captain spots of the entire growth by acquisition, even sitting junior to you on that list?

You would not be pleased.

I do appreciate your comments. I don't believe that I would feel the same way, necessarily, but my situation and motivations may be different than yours. I was happy doing what I was doing, and don't believe the extra money is worth the tradeoff of commuting to a junior base to sit reserve, but .I can appreciate your position, to be sure.

In any event, I am looking froward to putting all this behind us, and am looking forward to getting back in the air.

YEAH, BABY!

Regards,
Ty

 

[GuppyWN]

Explain how you move to a base to sit reserve when you will always be the most junior reserve in the system ? To keep the seat you have to continuously move bases.

Honest question. Answer assuming a downgrade for 15 years is not going to happen please.

If the 717 leaves ATL it will be AAI crews flying them for at least 3 years and then ONLY IF there is a vacancy a WN pilot can have it. So I could see a "junior" AAI captain with, say, 6 years on property driving to work in Dallas sitting #1 on the 717 getting every holiday and weekend off.........

Making $209/hr until at least 2020!

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

In any event, I am looking froward to putting all this behind us, and am looking forward to getting back in the air.

YEAH, BABY!

Regards,
Ty

No ********************.

Gup

 

[Lear70]

If the 717 leaves ATL it will be AAI crews flying them for at least 3 years and then ONLY IF there is a vacancy a WN pilot can have it. So I could see a "junior" AAI captain with, say, 6 years on property driving to work in Dallas sitting #1 on the 717 getting every holiday and weekend off.........

Making $209/hr until at least 2020!

Gup

Sounds like one of our MC members...

If you guys have that many commuters, then you can't really complain about being dealt a commute to SWA bases.

Well, since it's OUR lives that are changing, I think I'll complain how I want. It's FlightInfo, after all...

In all seriousness, yes I'll be commuting. But it's a big difference commuting to whatever trips you want bidding in the top of the base to commuting 4-6 hours each way to sit reserve in a base you never wanted to be in.

The money helps, and it sounds like it's your primary focus, but it's not mine.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Absolutely, complain away. I didn't mean it wasn't your right. I just meant to give perspective.

Gup is right, tho, that 717 drivers will get better seniority than those in the 737. And Ive been thinking that 717s will be in demand in DAL and HOU.

 

[greenpilot]

I am a senior fo at airtran. I get my top 10 choice of lines in atl. I will leave atl if mdw becomes available. I would bet all the mke pilots will take mdw. We have a ton of pilots who live in the NE they will take a bwi base. Our texas boys will bid hou or dal if they can hold it. the ones out west will take las phx or oak. mco guys will want to stay in mco.
there will be those who will commute just to hold a line. In my experience reserve where you live is always better then the stress of commuting.
If you do get kicked out of ATL you can always pick up open flying in ATL.

 

[27 driver]

If the 717 leaves ATL it will be AAI crews flying them for at least 3 years and then ONLY IF there is a vacancy a WN pilot can have it. So I could see a "junior" AAI captain with, say, 6 years on property driving to work in Dallas sitting #1 on the 717 getting every holiday and weekend off.........

Making $209/hr until at least 2020!

Gup

GUP,
Do you know something we don't about the 717 bases? Inquiry minds want to know.

 

[scoreboardII]

Guys, really, complain all you want. It's good for the soul, but If I was told I had to commute but expect to make an extra $70,000/yr to do it, I'm buying first class seats there and back and stay at the Hyatt. You'd still put money in the bank.

Nobody is talking anything about 717 basing, the info flow has stopped pending MEC.