Training Programs

[350DRIVER]

The_Russian,

I can never seem to be amazed with your attempts at justifying this program and comparing it to the likes of the MAPD's of this industry.. Completely a different animal all together, bottom line. You can put lipstick on it, dress it up, etc, etc, but the bottom line is that this program is indeed one of the easiest ways to ruin a career. You are not even flying for a regional yet let alone you continue to make comments about how "successful" you will be in moving on after the regional level where you are not even at now.(go figure) It is very simple my friend, the majority of pilots in this industry understand the ramifications of this practice and most (that I have come across) will not even give GIA grads the time of day or respect since they deserve very little if any at all. It is easy for you to continue to hide behind the screen name but there will be a point and time where you certainly will be called on your past choices. What would happen if GIA didn't charge "first officers" to rent a seat out?? You got it, they would actually have to "hire", "train" at their cost, and "pay" a pilot at respectable wages, not $8.00 per hour.....If you can live with yourself then great, you are the one that must wake up every morning, look in the mirror and accept the choices that you have made, not I or anyone else on this board. Most aviators take pride in knowing that they "paid" dues to get to where they are present day versus handing over a blank check to "rent" a right seat out of a 1900 for 250 hours. The MAPD grads earn everything prior to being hiring, GIA pilots buy the job.



I have stated many times and will continue to post in opposition of this program. Anyone that would be willing to spend close to $19,000 to "rent" a seat out should have their head examined. I can speak from experience regarding a good friend of mine who is on an interview board (not a regional)who will have HR intentionally bring in a few former GIA grads in to interview just to "play" with them prior to laughing them right out the door, I praise his actions and hope that he continues to shoot those down to make this poor career choice... Ask around, surely you can figure out what airline I am referring to my friend. It is very simple and elementary, a good majority of those sitting on interview boards present day got to where they are by blood, sweat, tears, and lot's of sacrifice, not by throwing $19,000 to sit right seat in a 1900.. I love how you continue to drink that GIA kool aid and you are "untouchable" and will not have a problemin trying to advance after the regionals... You may not get the last laugh my friend... Do some make it? Sure.... Others do not however.

Time shall tell but surely better you than I and 99.99999% of pilots who frequent this board.

If I saw you on the ramp in Miami, you wouldn't talk to me like that. You are just a kid. You are only 2 years older than me. You know nothing, and you will never know everything like you think you do already.

I can honestely say that I wouldn't give a rats a$$ if it were on the ramp at MIA or PHX, would not matter.... Wait till you leave GIA and are faced with those that are dead set against this program/practice and will make your life a living hell.. You are not yet there yet so keeping buying into your hopes, dreams, desires, etc, which are far from reality.. Ask the Peanuckle guy who was recently fired due to a run in with a captain who was a former GIA grad.... Life will not be all fun and games once you hit the line at another regional. You don't have the experience, background, etc, to be making comments about "life after GIA" since in reality you are NOT yet at that stage. Come back and report to us in a few years when you have something of substance to post versus highly opinionated posts that have very little bearing on reality.... I don't know anything? **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** for someone who is in his 20's that knows "nothing" I think it is fair to say that I have done quite well for myself thus far. And ya wanna know the best part of it? I never had to "whore" myself out and pay anyone a dime to sit right seat in any aircraft. . . (that should make ya happy)

All regionals that our grads applied to have our pilots working for them. A bunch of our guys just went to XJT. My friend was just hired by ASA last week. PSA just took 20 of our guys. Colgan interviewed 19 last week. You say sh!t and you don't even know the truth. I don't know if anyone got hired by skywest, but I'll put a resume in just to p!ss you off. And when I get hired because of all of the great 121 exp. I have, you'll be the first to hear. And I'm not going to Airlink.

Ok, any of the above mentioned regionals have "agreements" such as the one that is in place with Peanuckle to take you guys? I kind of thought so... Peanuckle is the only regional that has anything in writing to accept someone (GIA grads) at a low time all others must meet the street minimums for that carrier. Surplus has always exceeded demand in this industry and you are looked at as just another "number". If you are not going to Peanuckle and are going elsewhere then you must have went into this "seat renting" program with quite a bit of total time. Sad that you had to p!ss away all this money and not get hired without the help of this program, I laugh when I read these types of stories... How much total time and multi-engine time did you have upon entering this program?

It is an educational/work experience program.

Now that is a quote for the ages... An educational/work experience with paying pax in the back?, nice... If only the paying public knew that this was taking place up front. I truly feel for your captains who have to babysit on top of having to fly the aircraft. Making $8.00 (or around there) to be a first officer?! come on....

Define "earn" with respect to flight training at MAPD as opposed to other schools.

If you knew anything about this program then no explanation would be needed. They are not "renting" any seat out, they are pushed to the limit from day 1 until completion and if they cannot keep up then they are washed out and sent home. It is an insult to the utmost when you even compare this program with yours, not even close... They are "given" nothing, everything is earned... What do you want to know? I would be more than happy to go into detail if you would like.

Reviewing the program at MAPD with a friend that went through the program and looking on the MAPD website, the only difference between GIA and MAPD is an interview. Paying for an interview is not honorable either if we put this in your eyes.

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** they really make you guys drink some good kool aid down there, your marketing department must sell so much propaganda that you are forced to buy into it. Are MAPD grads "renting" a seat out? Whoring themselves out? making $8.00.hr as a first officer? The above was quite comical..

Im sure they are all great pilots. No different from GIA guys. Both schools have guys who can't make it and they are booted. It seems that you are a very one-sided person, who is stubborn with a whole lot of ignorance. Oh, and you also fail to be objective.

I am actually quite objective and understanding when someone brings something of "substance" to debate and discuss but in all of your "supporting" GIA posts and threads I have yet to see anything other than opinion and arrogant comments. When you have the time, experience, knowledge, etc, to debate this issue then I would be more than happy to do it again but beating a dead horse get's very old after you do it enough times.

Report back to us when you are actually out of the nest and flying for another regional.


bobby,

Allow him to get out into the "real world" and then he will see... Sometimes things are better left unsaid.

MAPD is a flight school. Gulfstream is not a flight school. Big difference between the two.

you sure about that?!?! LOL With age comes wisdom so they say, we will see if this holds true with Mr. Russian... He does not have the work experience nor the knowledge of the industry to make any posts of substance.. 100% all opinion which shouldn't surprise anyone on this board that has been in this "game" for any period of time.


3 5 0

 

[Jetter2]

I don't really understand what all the beef is about. From what I have read on the website, they pay X amt of $$, and they get on the flight deck with a "babysitter" if ya wanna call it, and learn to fly that aircraft.

Is this program really THAT hated? I don't see how the information you learn at GIA, couldn't be transitioned over for say, an AE S340F deck.

I guess I don't understand why they are so hated. I'm not a big fan of the MAPD program, but then again, to each his own.

 

[another747]

350



As several others on this board have stated, I also find you to be somewhat rude and offensive. I also, by your tone, highly doubt you fly for any other airline than a commuter, if that. With an attitude like yours, you would make it past NO interview board. I AM on an interview board, and I sure as hell would never hire someone as abrassive as you.

You are also obviously not very observent of past circumstances. Your apparent airline has numerous, and I mean numerous pilots, many captains, who paid for their training through Flight Safety programs, and or Gulfstream style programs. I know this because EVERY airline has many pilots who paid for their "airline" training in someway. The 90's ring any bells for you? Probably not because you are too "young".

If you disagree with PFT, that is your perogative, but stop personally insulting other people, especially with you ignorance in the ways of major 121 carrier recruitment procedures/screening.

Regards,

 

[350DRIVER]

74-

If your opinion was shared by the majority of pilots then all would be well but I disagree and think that your opinions are in the minority. You are entitled to your opinions, beliefs, etc, as the rest of these members are and may I make a suggestion?. Use the "ignore" feature and you won't have to worry about my posts or threads or the many other anti-GIA posts that can be found here. 90's ring a bell? sure they do.


Does EAL/CAL ring a bell? I am sure the guys who crossed the line are "ok" too right? Looking at your profile though would leave no doubt that you came up through the school of hard knocks...... (.)


3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T

I don't really understand what all the beef is about. From what I have read on the website, they pay X amt of $$, and they get on the flight deck with a "babysitter" if ya wanna call it, and learn to fly that aircraft.

The point about Gulfstream and other P-F-T airlines is by paying for your training you are buying a job. In so doing, you are circumventing the system. Aviation is a conservative and traditional industry, in which newcomers work their way up the ladder. Those who try to end-run the system with money are resented, especially by those who've clawed their way up. At Gulfstream, you pay money to obtain 250 hours of right-seat 121 time, for which you are paid the $8 per hour. As long as you're paid, that is a job, and paying for your training at Gulfstream is buying a job, albeit temporary employment at best.

MAPD is different. Mesa gives dispensation to those who attend its flight school, but there is still no guaranteed hiring. Same with Comair (Delta Connection Academy).

 

[TopGun-MAV]

one word...TAB!

I went threw training at Tab less then a year ago, now i'm a qualified first officer.
They have financing, and almost everyone qualifies for it. you fly turbine equipment, no cessnas or pipers, no instructing, no fright and have bridge progams with the airlines. it's not that expensive. you will spend less than 100K there, but look at it lilke this. how much does it cost to go to law school?

maverick

 

[TRLpilot]

dang it, just when i was starting to get a good nights sleep again topgun-mav shows up. i thought we were blessed with your departure. oh well, maybe some good laughs are ahead.

yes, take topgun-mavs advice, spend $100k of dad's money and "master" the 1900 in less than a year.

 

[The_Russian]

As several others on this board have stated, I also find you to be somewhat rude and offensive. I also, by your tone, highly doubt you fly for any other airline than a commuter, if that. With an attitude like yours, you would make it past NO interview board. I AM on an interview board, and I sure as hell would never hire someone as abrassive as you.

You are also obviously not very observent of past circumstances. Your apparent airline has numerous, and I mean numerous pilots, many captains, who paid for their training through Flight Safety programs, and or Gulfstream style programs. I know this because EVERY airline has many pilots who paid for their "airline" training in someway. The 90's ring any bells for you? Probably not because you are too "young".

If you disagree with PFT, that is your perogative, but stop personally insulting other people, especially with you ignorance in the ways of major 121 carrier recruitment procedures/screening

Couldn't have said it better myself.

350,

Who cares how you get to an airline. Really. GIA is a great program that is very intense. You think we are playing around? We may be learning 121 life, but at the same time we are flying that aircraft. There is no play. The ones who do play get kicked out. Once they get kicked out its on their 121 record. Those people never get a job in the airline industry. Even Airlink refuses them.

I know very little about MAPD. That does not make me scared of their presence in our industry. YOU ARE AFRAID OF GIA! One, because they are entering the jet regionals and nationals at a rapid pace. Two, because you know nothing about GIA itself or the program. I bet you have never met one person from GIA. As an instructor I know that 99% of all flight schools produce the same type of pilot. If you spent any time instructing you would know that a GIA grad is no different from an MAPD grad. If someone is a bad pilot or lazy or whatever, they will be weeded out of the airlines some way or another.

can never seem to be amazed with your attempts at justifying this program

Just ask the Chief pilots of the airlines our guys go to. They are very satisfied. PSA is especially happy right now.

It is very simple my friend, the majority of pilots in this industry understand the ramifications of this practice and most (that I have come across) will not even give GIA grads the time of day or respect since they deserve very little if any at all.

What? I didn't buy a job. I am in a training program. I never gave the airline a cent of my money. If you want to get technical I paid the Academy money. They happen to be completely separate finacial institutions. Who do you think you are with this respect sh!t? I never asked for respect. He!!, 90% of people in airports don't give any of us pilots respect. And I never demanded respect from the likes of you and your disgruntled personallity.

Most aviators take pride in knowing that they "paid" dues to get to where they are present day versus handing over a blank check to "rent" a right seat out of a 1900 for 250 hours. The MAPD grads earn everything prior to being hiring, GIA pilots buy the job.

You ignorant fcuk I paid my dues. You know nothing about me and you know nothing about dues if you are supposedly in the right seat of a bus at 25! How did you get there so fast? I also nothiced you changed your avitar and put "bus" down below when AW wasn't even hiring. But, this I can only assume. However by your attitude I agree with 747.

Time shall tell but surely better you than I and 99.99999% of pilots who frequent this board.

Want a statistic? Less than 0.00005% of existing pilots visit this board. 99.88583% don't care about this sh!t. Nor do they care about your opinion or mine. Nor do they care to LISTEN TO YOU TALK SH!T TO YOUR FELLOW AVIATORS!

And what makes you think that what I bring to this board is opinion. Why would I waste my time trying to tell people whats going on with GIA if I am going to lie. Are you just telling yourself that I am putting unfactual information on this board to "stir sh!t up". Are you telling yourself that this really isn't happening and there is only one way to learn to fly or get to an airline? Give me a break man. And get a life. You know why you only see me every once in a while? Because I am flying my a$$ off and doing other things than bashing my fellow pilots every single day of my life. How many years have you been on here man. Grow the fcuk up. Become more open minded and maybe you can walk away from FlightInfo for a while and meet some nice people. Like the guys at GIA. Instead of always punching us we could be buying beers for each other. It's people like YOU who don't deserve to be part of this brotherhood of aviators. We are a small group of intelligent people who do the closest thing you can do to a space-walk every single day of our lives and you want to break us all up with your ill-will.

Thanks a lot 350. For your influence and knowledge of what is right.

He does not have the work experience nor the knowledge of the industry to make any posts of substance..

Your right. I have learned nothing from aviation. I never paid my dues with sweat on the ramp or in a spin tumbling to the ground with a student. I never got educated or read an aviation magazine. In fact, I never believed the rumors in the pilot lounge.

Does EAL/CAL ring a bell? I am sure the guys who crossed the line are "ok" too right?

That's a totally different subject. You nor I no anything about the hardships involved with those events. That comment just proves that you have difficulty forming your own opinion, and you only listen to the people around you. Why do I say that? Because you had nothing to do with it unless your father was a Captain at one of those airlines. I don't like the thought of a scab, but it doesn't get in the way of my daily life to the point that I even bring it up in reference to a subject like this.

Bobby,

I appriciate you calm ability to educate. Thank you for making that clarification on MAPD. However, I still do not believe that GIA is PFT. We will let it rest. Nosdrovia Comrade.

dang it, just when i was starting to get a good nights sleep again topgun-mav shows up

Top-Gun Mav is my favorite pilot!

one word...TAB!

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T

one word...TAB!

I went threw training at Tab less then a year ago, now i'm a qualified first officer.
They have financing, and almost everyone qualifies for it. you fly turbine equipment, no cessnas or pipers, no instructing, no fright and have bridge progams with the airlines. it's not that expensive. you will spend less than 100K there, but look at it lilke this. how much does it cost to go to law school?

maverick

(emphasis added)

This post says a lot more than it might appear on first reading. It has meaning on several levels.

It is a pro-P-F-T post and an anti-P-F-T post. Pro P-F-T because it proves that anyone - even a cretin like him - can become a "line" "pilot" if he/she has enough money. It is anti P-F-T for the same reason. Think about it.

"Mav" has broken his promise at least twice that he would no longer post. And that's what P-F-T is all about - broken promises. Go read some of the recent RAA posts to learn more about broken P-F-T promises.

Have another glass, "Mav."

 

[bobbysamd]

I appriciate you calm ability to educate. Thank you for making that clarification on MAPD. However, I still do not believe that GIA is PFT. We will let it rest. Nosdrovia Comrade.

Dosvedanya (sic). I'll show you my Poljot(s) if you show me yours.

Top-Gun Mav is my favorite pilot!

Mine, too. TABExpress F/O is my second-favorite.

 

[paid4training]

My parents are going to pay $40k for my college. Now I can spend ALL of that at ATP, or I can spend all of that on college.

My plan:
Finish up HS this spring
Summer of 05: Start taking classes at Jr. College, get that much farther ahead. Go to Summer Semester, Fall, Spring, and Summer semester, so by fall of 06' I got my 2 years of Jr. College out of the way.

Join up with ATP and (hopefully, hopefully!!) land a job with them, so I can build time.

If I can get on with some regional carrier, thad' just seal the deal! Regional Pilots seem to average about two weeks off a month. With a flight line time of 72hrs, that should leave time for me to squeeze in time for the last two years of my degree.

IF i had to do it all over again I would do the following:
Take the summer off or get a sh!t job making you want to go to school...you will and can get burned out going to school!!!
fall04--start the basic course @ juco and get your pvt/inst part61
sprng05--continue to get the basic and fly as much as possible
fall05--apply to erau or simular school...you have a pvt/inst...get remaining of ratings at erau or some school simular. Fly enjoy classes and chase women...get some life experience(not too much don't mess up the chances you have)...get your cfi sophmore/junior year...cfi your senior year...build hours and experience!!!

this is just an view and a wish of mine if I had to do it all over again
fall04--

 

[minitour]

So, let me see if I understand this PFT thing (in retail terms).

Say I want to be a District Manager for X company...but I have to have 5 years experience to be a District Manager for X company...

Here comes Y company that says, "Hey, for $5,000 you can be a District Manager for our company."

So, I pay Y company $5,000 and be a District Manager for 5 years...

...so instead of Y company paying ME $40-$50K a year....I payed THEM $5,000??


If I've got it right, then why are some people for it?

If I've got it wrong, someone please use the scenario above and put it in my terms...thanks...

A Very Confused
-mini

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Mav, I could buy nearly 700 multi hours for that $100k... I think many regionals would drool over someone with 700 multi. He!!, at $100k I would go out and buy my own multi and fly it into the ground (I would either be sleeping, working, or logging multi time as long as the aircraft is airworthy).

Let me try to explain why pilots that worked their way up hate PFT. If you want to pay for your ratings, fine (noone expect HS students to walk into an engineering firm and have them pay for the engineering degree - same here). But, paying for your airline job undermines those of us who want to earn money and work out way up. You are essentially GIVING away your time and undermining my ability to find work (and command a decent wage).

So if you are screwing me, it is perfectly legitimate to f*ck with you back. And the guys on hireing boards know this. Have fun on interviews (if you get that far)!

Is it wierd that there aren't alot of guys crowing about how the PFT work got them to Jet Blue/Southwest/ect? Think about it for a minute (but don't think too long, that B1900 doesn't master itself!).

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

So, let me see if I understand this PFT thing (in retail terms).

Say I want to be a District Manager for X company...but I have to have 5 years experience to be a District Manager for X company...

Here comes Y company that says, "Hey, for $5,000 you can be a District Manager for our company."

So, I pay Y company $5,000 and be a District Manager for 5 years...

...so instead of Y company paying ME $40-$50K a year....I payed THEM $5,000??


If I've got it right, then why are some people for it?

If I've got it wrong, someone please use the scenario above and put it in my terms...thanks...

A Very Confused
-mini

There is a trick to PFT tho. Company Z offers the ability to get to the DM position, but you need to work for Company U for 3 years before you get hired on to Z (and then earn 5 years of experience). Company U pays the minumum wage and Z isn't much better.

So if all goes according to plan, you shave off 3 years of work at minumum wage and move straight to the endgame for $5k. Plus you move ahead 3 years in your professional track (and thus have a better lifestyle at the end). And say if it all works out, those 3 professional years are worth $200k apiece at company X (after raises and whatnot). So it would net you $595k to pay that $5k.

It's how PFT is supposed to work. Some people get suckered in by the idea and don't see the downsides (if others take offence at you shortcutting and smack you down).

 

[Jetter2]

I'm definatly going to ATP, I just didn't know what everyone had against GIA.

 

[paid4training]

one word...TAB!

I went threw training at Tab less then a year ago, now i'm a qualified first officer.
They have financing, and almost everyone qualifies for it. you fly turbine equipment, no cessnas or pipers, no instructing, no fright and have bridge progams with the airlines. it's not that expensive. you will spend less than 100K there, but look at it lilke this. how much does it cost to go to law school?

maverick

do you just come on this forum to get reamed? I don't think tab is even around anymore...did they go bankrupt???!!!
O N L Y 100k? your loan repayment would be $1000 a month.... try to pay that with 17k a year!!!

 

[Jmmccutc]

one word...TAB!

I went threw training at Tab less then a year ago, now i'm a qualified first officer.
They have financing, and almost everyone qualifies for it. you fly turbine equipment, no cessnas or pipers, no instructing, no fright and have bridge progams with the airlines. it's not that expensive. you will spend less than 100K there, but look at it lilke this. how much does it cost to go to law school?

maverick

inoticed that this was posted at 8:32 today (7-22), i thought after that last ass pounding you got you'd have not come back...guess it takes stupid people more than one mistake to learn from...oh hey i need a good assistant delivering pizzas, if you give me oh lets just settle at $8k i'll let you ride in the passanger seat and learn all you can from me, and if you fork up the money at the start, you can have the tips and i'll keep my hourly wage, asshole...

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T - Retail Style

So, let me see if I understand this PFT thing (in retail terms).

Say I want to be a District Manager for X company...but I have to have 5 years experience to be a District Manager for X company...

Here comes Y company that says, "Hey, for $5,000 you can be a District Manager for our company."

So, I pay Y company $5,000 and be a District Manager for 5 years...

...so instead of Y company paying ME $40-$50K a year....I payed THEM $5,000??


If I've got it right, then why are some people for it?

If I've got it wrong, someone please use the scenario above and put it in my terms...thanks...

A Very Confused
-mini

That's about the size of it, though a better example would be the following:

Say you see that Foley's is looking for a sales person for ladies' lingerie, a position with requires training. You have no experience at all in retail, but you apply for the job. Foley's brings you in to interview and offers you the job, but tells you that as a condition of employment you have to pay them to train you. After you complete the training and are put on the floor, you are paid $8/hour, with no health or other benefits, for about 30 hours a week. That would be P-F-T, retail style.

The reason why some people are for P-F-T is they want to shortcut the experience requirements that they otherwise might have to work years for. Once again, aviation is a very traditional and conservative industry, in which pilots usually spend years gaining the experience they need for their ultimate goal. But when some people see they can buy the chance to get that experience, they do it, and potentially incur the resentment of those who reached their goal the traditional way. Moreover, but for pay-for-training, the jobs in question would ordinarily be obtained through traditional employment avenues and be available to any qualified pilot. With P-F-T, another available pilot job is eliminated from the inventory.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[pilotyip]

Is reverse true?

Suppose I take a PFT job, where I have to buy a type rating I presently do not have for $20K. The jobs pays $30K above market rate for the first year, it would be a smart career move. Am I guilty of PFT?

 

[Flyin Tony]

What about SWA dont you have to buy your type rating? wouldnt that be PFT?

 

[Jetter2]

I dunno about SWA, but I know for other airlines, you don't have to buy your type raiting. Even when you become Captain, they pay for you're type raiting in that aircraft.

 

[EKUAVN20]

Eku--go Colonels

EKU-Eastern Kentucky University-- has an OK Aviation program...It seems like it isnt the best run prgram out there we have quite a few older students wanting to get into the aviation business..WE just found out UPS offered us one of there FULL MOTION SIMS..(Tax Write Off) --instructors said we couldnt pay for upkeep..

 

[Go Ugly Early]

Back to the subject......

The oringnal post was getting input about several different training programs.

I'm interested in:
All ATP
Delta Connection
Pan Am Flight Academy

I already have my Comm. ASMEL. I'm just looking to get in and get my CFI and some time instructing somewhere.

I'm leaning toward All ATP since the program is fast and the CFI program is mostly in a multi. I'd like to instruct for them afterwords, but I hear that they usually only hire students that come in at the very begining of the prgram and not students that come in for just the CFI portion.

I'd be really interested to hear about either Delta or Pan Am as well if anyone has really good information about them.

 

[Jetter2]

This is true, most of their MEII's are graduates of thier Carrer Pilot Program. I don't think that it is "playing favorites" or that they don't like you or anything of that sort. I just think that they know what quality of MEII's they are getting out of the Carrer Pilot program, besides, the more MEI's that go through their Carrer Pilot Program, and instruct for them. The more time the build, and the far better chance they have of getting on with a Regional, keeping ATP's success story page filled up, and their reputation in good standing.

 

[Mustang5.0]

I recommend "Ari-Ben aviator" - almost exactly the same program as ALL-ATP but appx. 10K cheaper and you get more multi-time, also has the oppotrunity to instruct mostly multi students after finishing.

 

[Jetter2]

Their instructional oppurtunities arent as good as ATP. Their cross country's arent the same. At ATP, you are actually moving aircraft from school to school as they are needed, so there are no real "out 'n back" X-countrys where its only a few hours.

Also ATP offers Sim training, exactly what your Airline will be conducted in, not an actual aircraft. FTD's aren't an aircraft, there is no "flying by the seat of your pants", it forces you to develop a good instrument scan.

Plus its a 20 minute drive from my house.

 

[Mustang5.0]

Their instructional oppurtunities arent as good as ATP. Their cross country's arent the same. At ATP, you are actually moving aircraft from school to school as they are needed, so there are no real "out 'n back" X-countrys where its only a few hours.

I don't think the ATP instructing opportunities are any better than Ari-Ben's, either place you instruct in a twin and the pay and hours are similar. The only thing I could think of is maybe you would make more contacs at ATP since they do ATP ratings.

In my book x-c time is x-c time, just because you go on a longer trip, it doesn't make you a better pilot, it just takes longer, I could care less if I actually go across state lines and stay somewhere overnight. BTW- you can take long trips at Ari-Ben you just have to pay the fuel diff.

Also ATP offers Sim training, exactly what your Airline will be conducted in, not an actual aircraft. FTD's aren't an aircraft, there is no "flying by the seat of your pants", it forces you to develop a good instrument scan.

A good instructor also forces you to develop a good instrument scan, I doubt you'll remember your sim training anyways after you accumulate 1,000+ hours and are ready to start interviewing. I'd rather have the extra 50 hours of ACTUAL multi flight time in the ol' logbook and the extra 10K in my pocket than that ATP sim time anyday, but whatever, thats just my opinion.

I'm not trying to bash ATP, it is an excellent program and I would still highly recommend it #2 right after Ari-Ben, I know several people who have been through ATP with good results but with the recent large price increases at ATP (it's starting to get rediculous) I just think Ari-Ben is a much better deal for virtually the same thing without the pretty newer aircraft, but I happen to be a cheap-@ss so i'm a little biased - LOL

Plus its a 20 minute drive from my house.

I can't argue with that one! I wish Ari-Ben wasn't in Florida - **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, I hate this lousy flat state!

 

[bobbysamd]

SWA v. P F T

What about SWA dont you have to buy your type rating? wouldnt that be PFT?

No. P-F-T is strictly an employment issue. For something to be P-F-T, the company, as a condition of employment, will require you to pay for your own training. In most situations, the company trains you at its expense. P-F-T is tantamount to buying a job, which is abhorred and deplorable.

Southwest requires a 737 type, but you are getting that on your own. Or, you might have worked for someone, e.g. United or the Air Force, that typed you in 737s on their nickel. Southwest is still required under Part 121 to provide you with initial training to fly its 737s its way. Southwest does not charge you for your training.

Hope that clears up that issue, again.

 

[Sig]

Their instructional oppurtunities arent as good as ATP. Their cross country's arent the same. At ATP, you are actually moving aircraft from school to school as they are needed, so there are no real "out 'n back" X-countrys where its only a few hours.

Also ATP offers Sim training, exactly what your Airline will be conducted in, not an actual aircraft. FTD's aren't an aircraft, there is no "flying by the seat of your pants", it forces you to develop a good instrument scan.

Plus its a 20 minute drive from my house.

No offense, Jetter.... When you become more of an authority on the subject, become an authority on the subject.

ATP's bread and butter training is not conducted during a XC- those AC repositions are done during the "XC" phase of the ACPP in which an instructor isn't on board, while most of the add-on and ACPP training is done locally. I did my best to make every training flight a XC, but when you're limited to two 2.0 hour flights with a specific profile to an airport 15 miles away, you just can't. On top of that, out-and-backs were typical at Dallas.

The FTD argument is a little specious. After instructing at ATP, I flew an FTD during my first 135-job training. It was a Level 6. The only reason I feel that I rocked all over that training was that I had just flown 100 hours of hard IFR in a pressurized Baron by myself over the previous two months. Experience, period. Same goes for the first time I flew in a Level D simulator. Experience ruled the day- you could figure out who had the stick time easily.

The FTD is extremely useful for ironing out the problems the student has, however. Be it SA, a scan, or getting un-flustered during a cascade of bad events, it is a lot cheaper (and safer!) than with the engines running. It is a fully available resource to the students, as well as the instructors. I remember sitting by myself and flying the goofiest approaches I could find, at 10:30 pm, after showing at the airport at 6:-- am, with another show at 6:-- am, only TO FLY IT for the heck out of it. This is with a brand new baby at home!

The FTD time is moot after your commercial checkride. It affords you plenty of experience toward the fundamentals, but I can't really see the translation to the higher level flying that you imply exists.

Incidentally, I flew the 'sim' at ATP Dallas for the FAA for 8 hours during the QTG compliance stuff, making it the only Part 61 sim in the district FAA-authorized to do certain things... I know of what I speak. =]

I would like to take you on a flight in the PC12 or the King Air/Cessna 414/P-Baron I fly, then put you in an AST300. I don't have an FTD available, but I do have plenty of empty right seat time for you- you might have a blast.

You'll see the value in the FTD- it is very real, but real-plane by-yourself-decision-making is where you will learn to be a valued crew member.

If it comes down to Ari-Ben or ATP, it really should hinge on what the gut tells the spender. Period.

Keep pluggin' away. PM me for more info.