Tradewinds 747 Wreck in MDE

[McNugget]

They are talking about this on the Majors board, why don't you guys go cuss them out on there for making speculations?

 

[Kruger Stellman]

maybe lay the blame by the FAA for allowing rediculous duty and rest times for international operations (no duty time limit for 3 man crews). 16 to 24 hr duty days are not uncommon. Time up between sleep periods routinely exceed 30 hrs. Just go to the MIA customs office when these crews come back from dodging cumulus granite in the middle of the night at crappy S. American airports and see how awake they are.
Want an example: fly all night, come back in the hotel at 0900, sleep 5 hours (your body has a hard time sleepingin the day time) and have to report at 2200 for a scheduled 13 hr duty day for a MIA-BOG-MDE-MIA turn. At 2130 scheduling call that the flight has been pushed back 2 hours.
When arriving in BOG there is no parking space, so sit on a taxiway for 2 hrs (1st delay). Now you can pull in and load the flowers. When you're ready to go MDE is fogged in, another 2 hr delay. After loading in MDE you find out us customs has problems clearing the inbound cargo. Another hour delay. This thing is turning into a 18 hr duty day (the 2 hr schedule delay is not part of this).
Finally you come to MIA and find out that the computer at customs doesn't work and you have to wait another hour outside in the 90 degree heat. Oh, don't forget your duty time ends 30 min after setting the parking brake (at 1800). So there went your first hour of the 12 hr block-to-block rest period and haven't even entered the country yet! Another hour and you finally made it to your hotel room at 2000. 28 hrs since show time. Add the other 7 hours that you were up since 1400 and you've been up 35 hrs.
Now you can go to sleep at night and according to the FAA you're good for a 0600 release of the parking brake for another day with a unlimited duty time. Subtract 1.5 hours for show time, another 1 hr for the wake-up and travel-to-airport routine and there's a maximum of 7.5 hrs sleep. This doesn't even include some wind-down time or a bite to eat.

And we wonder why people drive aircraft of the end of runways. It's just a big surprise that there are not more often incidents / accidents.
Now the FAA will do all kind of line checks and ramp checks to see how poorly the crews operate, instead of trying to get the duty / rest times adjusted to a more humane level. Yet that change will be resisted by the operators that see their crewcost increase. The same operators that threaten to fire you if you want to go to a hotel down range or refuse a trip because of fatigue (I know some guys that kept their job because of their Alpa membership, most of these crews flying to S.America don't have the luxury of a union backing them)

Better go read the regs again Metrodriver. Part 121 3 man 16 hours duty, 5 man 20 hours duty, Don't spout off S*** if you don't know your S***

 

[McNugget]

Before you cuss out metrodriver, he is referring to Part 121 Supplemental operations for international flying. Many of the MIA based cargo carriers operate under these rules.

Try 121.523(c) for 3 man crews....

 

[metrodriver]

[URL="http://www.airweb.faa.gov/icons/collapse.gif"]http://www.airweb.faa.gov/icons/collapse.gifSec. 121.521[/URL]

Part 121 OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS​

Subpart S--Flight Time Limitations: Supplemental Operations

Sec. 121.521

Flight time limitations: Crew of two pilots and one additional airman as required.

(a) No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule an airman to be aloft as a member of the flight crew in an airplane that has a crew of two pilots and at least one additional flight crewmember for more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) If an airman has been aloft as a member of a flight crew for 20 or more hours during any 48 consecutive hours or 24 or more hours during any 72 consecutive hours, he must be given at least 18 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder. In any case, he must be relieved of all duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days.
(c) No airman may be aloft as a flight crewmember more than--
(1) 120 hours during any 30 consecutive days; or
(2) 300 hours during any 90 consecutive days.

Amdt. 121-253, Eff. 2/26/96


As you see, no mentioning about duty day limits. There are limits for DOMESTIC operations, not international. It also says ALOFT, meaning block to block flight time, nothing about time sitting on the ground

 

[McNugget]

Better go read the regs again Metrodriver. Part 121 3 man 16 hours duty, 5 man 20 hours duty, Don't spout off S*** if you don't know your S***

Yeah, that too, metrodriver. I thought this comment about your post was unwarranted.

 

[metrodriver]

I guess he doesn't know what he is talking about either, although if you see his "credentials" he should know better. And supplemental and flag ops have the same limitations, so there can't be much confusion.
Funny thing is that the BOG- MDE trip from MIA is only 8 hrs of flying

 

[C601]

I guess he doesn't know what he is talking about either, although if you see his "credentials" he should know better. And supplemental and flag ops have the same limitations, so there can't be much confusion.
Funny thing is that the BOG- MDE trip from MIA is only 8 hrs of flying

:beer:

Don't mind the idiots like 20000hr wonder boy...

 

[kevdog]

I have been hearing this plane had a dual engine failure before the abort and one of the engines was illegal. Can anyone verify this?

 

[metrodriver]

You mean they were trying to bring an illegal into the US? I didn't know Bush's plans for borderprotection went this far

If this is true, then that would be a typical case of an operator trying to make a quick buck over over the backs (and licenses) of the crews. an illegal part doesn't necessarely have to be bad, however the feds insist on a papertrail for a reason as the statistics have shown

 

[McNugget]

Minus two thrust reversers would be a major factor in going off the end in an 800,000 lb. airplane.....I would be happy to see this be blamed on mechanical issues and not the crew.

Haven't seen CSY Mon on here in a while, hope he wasn't involved.