Told Ya!!!!!!!!

[Live4flyng]

This isn't quite true. A vote took place during the Travel Air days. That vote failed. It is my guess that it failed because of the lack of success by the Teamsters at NJ's. Your old MEC and Union let you down.

And this isn't quite true either. "A vote took place during the Travel Air days." It didn't fail because of a lack of success by the Teamsters at NJA, we had not even begun negotiations on the contract at the time. How can you measure success that way and use it as an excuse for a failed vote? Our old MEC is gone and so is the old union! Strong Union was formed by the pilot group and to this day is funded by the pilot group until we have our own Local. NJA pilots have overcome some huge hurdles despite the company, MEC and Local. If we can overcome those 3 major things, a small pilot group of 900 or so should be able to send in a DAM card. It's your future and time is ticking!

 

[leardawg]

Hey Flightbag! Take a chill pill! By the looks of your experience, it looks light you've been around for a while, so it's kind of sad to see you so bitter and caustic after a lengthy career (almost makes me want to quit flying before I wind up as a cantankerous old fart myself!).

As far as forming a union is concerned, you can't paint all of us FLOPS guys with the same brush. There are many who would consider a union, but who aren't particularly wild about IBT. Others do not want a union for a number of reasons ( some, especially ex-military types, consider it anathema). I respect differing opinions on both sides of the argument, but I (as well as many others I have talked to) are gradually coming around to the conclusion that some kind of representation is going to be necessary if we are going to stay at FLOPS for any length of time. I am open to a fractional pilots union negotiating reasonable solutions to our complaints, from a position of strength and mutual respect. I am not interested in management bashing, protecting the incompetent, or making unreasonable demands (there are always those whom, after being told they will only have to fly on Tuesdays and Thursdays and get paid $300,000 a year, will raise a stink about being made to fly on Thursdays!). I do feel we have legitimate gripes (the list of which seems to be growing daily, lately), but am under no illusion that any union is going to wave a magic wand and make them all go away. Nobody, including Flight Options, owes me a living. I do believe that if they want someone to work for them, it is within that person's right to ask for adequate compensation and working conditions. If their response is for us to go s**t in our hats, then I will find employement elsewhere (or see the threat of enough people doing so to make them change their stance). It's that plain and simple, without having to resort to name calling and the pounding of fists on the table. I have other "irons in the fire", and EVERY pilot I know at FLOPS is actively looking for something else. We're just waiting to see what happens in the next few months before making a decision of whether or not to move on to another job (with a whole new set of gripes!).





















9

 

[minimums]

Live4

And this isn't quite true either. "A vote took place during the Travel Air days." It didn't fail because of a lack of success by the Teamsters at NJA, we had not even begun negotiations on the contract at the time. How can you measure success that way and use it as an excuse for a failed vote? Our old MEC is gone and so is the old union! Strong Union was formed by the pilot group and to this day is funded by the pilot group until we have our own Local. NJA pilots have overcome some huge hurdles despite the company, MEC and Local. If we can overcome those 3 major things, a small pilot group of 900 or so should be able to send in a DAM card. It's your future and time is ticking!

As I stated, "It was MY guess". Just a guess because I didn't work for Travel Air. Your "original" contract was what many consider "sub-par". In pay, it definately was, you deserve to be paid more than you are. But, in the same breath, it is a contract and what you have is yours, it can't be taken away. I would say that it is a double-edge sword. The fact is, I sent in my card over 2 years ago. We haven't heard anything from Don T. since March 4, 2004.

I can not force each pilot to sign a card and send it in. They will have to make the decision themselves, which shouldn't be hard to do considering the state of things at FLOPS.

I just don't understand the mentality of some people who belittle others on this board. When is the "mine's bigger than yours" kindergarden mentality going to change? If the pilot groups are divided, then management wins.

 

[Live4flyng]

I wasn't trying to belittle you at all. I agree about the unity issue and NJA pilots are more united now than they have ever been. The contract we have in my opinion is not a double edged sword at all. The only way it can be changed is through negotiations or a legal job action. There are many things that need to be changed in it, but we are protected against any last minute decisions by management to change our work rules and pay (even though it sucks). One more thing about our current contract, it was ratified in 1998. Most of the guys who ratified it are/were working for the airlines and some came back to NJA after 9/11. I would hate to see 900+ pilots lose their jobs overnight because management isn't being truthful. If you are organized, it may make life a little easier if you were to be aquired by another company.

 

[minimums]

I wasn't trying to belittle you at all. I agree about the unity issue and NJA pilots are more united now than they have ever been. The contract we have in my opinion is not a double edged sword at all. The only way it can be changed is through negotiations or a legal job action. There are many things that need to be changed in it, but we are protected against any last minute decisions by management to change our work rules and pay (even though it sucks). One more thing about our current contract, it was ratified in 1998. Most of the guys who ratified it are/were working for the airlines and some came back to NJA after 9/11. I would hate to see 900+ pilots lose their jobs overnight because management isn't being truthful. If you are organized, it may make life a little easier if you were to be aquired by another company.

I agree. I hope others will wake up soon and join reality.

 

[FracCapt]

Hey FracCapt:

I also hope I meet you on the road. I prefer face to face meetings myself. What do you fly?

Hawker. Sometimes the 800, sometimes the XP. If you see a guy with a nearly shaved head(think first day in boot camp haircut) in a FLOPS Hawker, come on over and see if it's me.

 

[hawkercpt]

or

look for a guy with longer black hair with a bad attitude in a flops hawker. I'd like a word with you as well.

 

[FracCapt]

look for a guy with longer black hair with a bad attitude in a flops hawker. I'd like a word with you as well.

I can vouch for that.

 

[leardawg]

You guys won't get an answer; the booze has worn off by now.

 

[Flightbag]

Hey FracCapt & hawkercpt:

I'll look for both of your bad asses. We should be able to have a meaningful conversation.

I can certainly understand the bad attiude. I'd have a bad attitude also if I were you. The difference is, I would attempt to do something about it.

Flightbag

 

[inverted1]

Hmmmm

Wow this is getting interesting. I am with FLOPS and yes a little frustrated! But to hear Flightbag spouting off says a lot about our nemesis. I paid my union dues and in the end Pi$$ed away a lot of money.

FLight bag.... what has the union done for you? Still waiting for a contract eh? Oh yes, there was a TA and it brought you guys up to what us FLOPS guys are being paid. Everyone that thinks we are going to get 20%, 30 % or 100% payraises is nuts. You see a company has to be making money in order to pay it out in Salaries. I have yet to see a fractional that is truly in the black yet! If you guys are so gung ho... I suggest you strike and show us all up! Do you think the company will survive a strike? Try it and FLOPS will absorb every bit of business you had and will ever get.

Imagine Joe millionare calling up to have his pretty little NJA Citation pick him up and take him to Vegas for his Million dollar business deal and OOOPS "I am sorry, our pilots are on strike today and your aircraft is parked in CHicago... Please leave me your information and when we get this straightened out we'll give ya a call and schedule that for a later date". You think OL' Joe is going to choose a company with a Union again? Think long and hard Fellas!!!!

I agree that the FLOPS guys need to step in and stop a bad trend, but a new union needs to be formed tailored to Fractional needs. Flightbag has absolutely no room to talk at the moment and I would much rather be at FLOPS without a union than to be at NJA with a union right now. With that much experience, why are you at NJA? I would be retired and enjoying the good life at this point.

Well on a better note... be safe to all of us, cause each accident no matter who's tail number will cost all of us in the long run

Peace

 

[Live4flyng]

Here we go again

FLight bag.... what has the union done for you? Still waiting for a contract eh? Oh yes, they did give you a TA and it brought you guys up to what us FLOPS guys are being paid. Everyone that thinks we are going to get 20%, 30 % or 100% payraises is nuts. You see a company has to be making money in order to pay it out in Salaries. I have yet to see a fractional that is truly in the black yet! If you guys are so gung ho... I suggest you strike and show us all up! Do you think the company will survive a strike? Try it and FLOPS will absorb every bit of business you had and will ever get.

If you paid dues to a union as you claim, then you would know that a union doesn't just hand you a contract. Nothing has been given to us and nothing will ever be given to us. It has to be negotiated. The T/A that was endorsed by our former MEC DID NOT bring our pay up to the enormous salary that you make, it was in fact a pay cut for most of us. Your cute statement about a fractional that needs to make money before it can pay its pilots is way off. Employee salaries are a cost of doing business. Obviously you haven't looked very hard if you "have yet to see a fractional that is truly in the black", NJA happens to be one of them. We may just have to strike and you are going to need quite a few more airplanes if you plan on picking up our slack boss.

 

[minimums]

NetJets won't strike. The Union wouldn't allow it and I don't think a vote would pass to allow a strike.

When was the last pilot strike by anyone (airlines included)?

That's my 2 cents.

 

[Live4flyng]

The Union won't allow it? We are the union, we take the vote. Col. Angus may be right, the IBT is getting closer to decertification by the NJA pilot group.

 

[waveoff]

Hey douchebag...err, flightbag...

Tell us what you look like so one of us can "take a walk" with you. You remind me of this shmuck I used to fly with when I was at FLOPs. Since I no longer work there, perhaps you and I can go for a walk since I don't have anything to lose.