To anyone interested in US Airways

[JoeMerchant]

This is one of many problems with "flow through" agreements..... They are simply a "promise" to maybe let you flow through at a later date..... It is no guarantee, and it is subject to many qualifiers....

Flowthroughs are a poor substitute for single lists on each brand property..... when will we ever learn.....

Fool me once, shame on you.....fool me twice shame on us........

 

[OPECJet]

Per the new hire announcement at US Airways, 100 plus pilots will be coming from the Wholly owned carriers. This is per management.

Now I know PSA and Piedmont are short, they how fast the 100 or so come over, will be determined by the company. But to say the company is not honoring the agreement is not completely accurate.

I hope the express carriers did not expect all the pilots at PSA and Piedmont, who qualify, to automatically flow up to mainline when we started hiring. This would essentially shut down the wholly owns.

The west guys are pushing for the flow through. But the company can not, for simple business reasons, take every pilot from the wholly owned.

Per that announcement, 100 pilots from PDT/PSA may interview for newhire positions at mainline. That is not a flow through, and is not honoring the agreement.

Obviously some sort of metering would need to be in place to keep the WO carriers staffed, but the way I read the agreement is that every PDT/PSA pilot who wishes, will at some point flow to mainline. The question should be when that pilot flows to mainline, not if.

 

[ultrarunner]

pilots employed by a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier

What defines "participating"????

 

[OPECJet]

Short version would be a carrier that gave concessions during the first bankruptcy. PDT/PSA, and ALG all gave up pay and work rules in 2002 through restructuring agreements.

 

[skeezer]

loser,

you are owed nothing. why don't you try and interview like everyone else? Flow through was set up for the losers that can't get hired any where else

Just an FYI... We have had a pilot apply to Us Airways and get an interview date only to have it rescinded and the pilot was told that he may not interview till March because he is Wholly Owned. Even if a WO wanted to apply, he/she cannot get an interview.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

Before you accept a job at US Airways you should probably know of a pending grievance brought forth by the wholly owned subsidiaries of Airways. As part of our 2002 restructuring agreement we were granted a flow through to the mainline, which 2 years later was accepted and implemented by management.
i.e. There are pilots now working at US Airways who flowed there from the wholly owneds. MGT no longer recognizes our flow through rights and as a result we have filed a grievance. Our case is VERY strong and we are asking that anyone hired off the street on or after Nov 5th be placed junior to any pilot currently employed by a wholly owned.... roughly 1,000 pilots. Please use this information when making your decision - you may end up significantly more junior than you first expected.

I have attached an excerpt from our contract for you to read.

Following the recall of all furloughed US Airways pilots, pilots employed by a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier shall be eligible to flow through to any new-hire US Airways pilot positions in order of their seniority on the integrated seniority list of pilots of Wholly-Owned Carriers”–i.e., the Combined Eligibility List (CEL).

Null and void. The old US Airways is nonexistent. The company you are referring to is actually America West and they are not bound by what the previous mgt at the company they took over did. The US Airways name is the same but it is an entirely new entity under the law. It would be no different than if you had a flow through with TWA and were now trying to get on with American.

Trying to intimidate/influence folks applying to the new US Airways is pathetic, ill-informed, and your reasoning does not hold any weight under the law. The fact of the matter is is that if America West had not "saved" US Airways all of their 737s would be at SWA. It gets confusing only because America West decided to take the US Air name.

 

[DrewBlows]

Null and void. The old US Airways is nonexistent. The company you are referring to is actually America West and they are not bound by what the previous mgt at the company they took over did.

You are 100% wrong. Do you think LCC quit paying leases on AAA airplanes when it bought them out? Uhhh, no... When you purchase a company you are responsible for all contracts the purchased company negotiated. If this weren't the case a company would be sold every time it signed a non-favorable contract.

 

[MCDU]

The surviving airline for the FAA is US Airways. America West is no longer and went under the certificate of US Airways.

 

[DrewBlows]

The surviving airline for the FAA is US Airways. America West is no longer and went under the certificate of US Airways.

That's moot. The new company has to observe the contracts from both companies.

 

[MJ42]

That's moot. The new company has to observe the contracts from both companies.

Until a new contract is negotiated which does not include a flow through. To be a devil's advocate, couldn't WO be sold if it became too much of a legal issue?

 

[Hpilot]

Before you accept a job at US Airways you should probably know of a pending grievance brought forth by the wholly owned subsidiaries of Airways. As part of our 2002 restructuring agreement we were granted a flow through to the mainline, which 2 years later was accepted and implemented by management.
i.e. There are pilots now working at US Airways who flowed there from the wholly owneds. MGT no longer recognizes our flow through rights and as a result we have filed a grievance. Our case is VERY strong and we are asking that anyone hired off the street on or after Nov 5th be placed junior to any pilot currently employed by a wholly owned.... roughly 1,000 pilots. Please use this information when making your decision - you may end up significantly more junior than you first expected.

I have attached an excerpt from our contract for you to read.

Following the recall of all furloughed US Airways pilots, pilots employed by a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier shall be eligible to flow through to any new-hire US Airways pilot positions in order of their seniority on the integrated seniority list of pilots of Wholly-Owned Carriers”–i.e., the Combined Eligibility List (CEL).

350 new hires and 140 from the express carries through 2008. "Roughly 1000" ? I thought all the drug users were out West. Did all you idiots out there get a bad load of weed? Get a reality check and get in line.

 

[Sir Innocenti]

Why insult the guy?

He was just making a point that those who are considering applying to USAirways might want to consider in their decision. There are in fact at this time pilots at USAirways who:

1. Never applied
2. Never interviewed
yet were taken (flowed) from PDT & ALG to mainline. And while they can deny that any flow through exists, they'll have to explain how the PDT/ALG pilots went from WO to mainline.

If the WO's seniority is protected, those hired off the street will be junior to the CEL pilots even if the guy hired off the street is at "mainline" first.

Secondly you say that he is "owed" nothing. I'll disagree with you. He/she is "owed" or "entitled" to everything that was negotiated in the collective bargaining agreement. So one could say that he is indeed entitled to this among many other things that are addressed in the contract.

Are you "entitled" to your pay rate, vacation, sick time? I'm guessing that you would say "yes".

Did we save USAirways? Of course not. But the flow-through was something given in return for the 20% pay cut that we took in 2002.

Very well said. Kudos.

 

[zasca]

The real issue is that AAA refuses to approach management with the other 3 unions with a mutually agreed upon flow up/back agreement. Then the company and the 4 unions must agree. The first and second parts are in the LOA after the whole flow through blurb... and must be completed BEFORE any flow can/must occur.

Until that is done, I would assume all new hires would have the right to keep their seniority over any flow through guys that eventually come after them.

Since there was no mandated ratio for flow in the LOA, I would hope we will be awarded seniority numbers now while conceding to the company the need to meter those leaving to mainline.

A lawsuit against Tempe is pointless until we can at least say "the unions presented a proposal to management and they unreasonably rejected it, etc., etc.". This has yet to actually happen...

Thumbs up our asses

 

[WickedPissa]

I find it amusing how some pilot groups bash another day in and day out and then want to flow up to join them.

 

[JetMonkey]

The surviving airline for the FAA is US Airways. America West is no longer and went under the certificate of US Airways.

Ok, and always remember. For accounting purposes, America West was the acquring carrier.

 

[737 Pylt]

Caution: Thread hijack!

I find it amusing how some pilot groups bash another day in and day out and then want to flow up to join them.

Its the same thing with DL/Comair.....Oh wait, they just want to sue to get DOH on our seniority list....Nevermind! Either way, have you noticed that some of the rjdc cheerleaders have now joined DL's seniority list!?

737

 

[trainer8]

Before you accept a job at US Airways you should probably know of a pending grievance brought forth by the wholly owned subsidiaries of Airways. As part of our 2002 restructuring agreement we were granted a flow through to the mainline, which 2 years later was accepted and implemented by management.
i.e. There are pilots now working at US Airways who flowed there from the wholly owneds. MGT no longer recognizes our flow through rights and as a result we have filed a grievance. Our case is VERY strong and we are asking that anyone hired off the street on or after Nov 5th be placed junior to any pilot currently employed by a wholly owned.... roughly 1,000 pilots. Please use this information when making your decision - you may end up significantly more junior than you first expected.

I have attached an excerpt from our contract for you to read.

Following the recall of all furloughed US Airways pilots, pilots employed by a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier shall be eligible to flow through to any new-hire US Airways pilot positions in order of their seniority on the integrated seniority list of pilots of Wholly-Owned Carriers”–i.e., the Combined Eligibility List (CEL).

Don't forget to quote the rest of the LOA, Loser. It's not that cut and dry. My understanding is that there is an agreement right now among the unions. There was some sticking point recently with an Air Wisconsin inclusion. Why, I don't know.

The grievance mentioned in your post was filed with PDT or PSA management, not LCC.

While LOA 93 does allow for Flow Thru, Flow Back was attempted in 2004. PDT decided not to pursue the "TBD" Flow Back portion of that LOA. The PDT MEC and PDT Management point fingers at each other over whose fault that is. The RPA asset sale announcement was made in winter '05 and nobody at the WO carriers moved to negotiate Flow back. During that time PDTand PSA denied that the CEL who had moved to AAA were in fact really on the US Airways Master Pilot Seniority list and APL. PSA filed a grievance to have former CEL APL pilots removed from their property. They...he...was subsequently denied any access to AAA MEC meetings (DEC 2006) for treatment of said J4J pilots at PSA. The AAA ALPA later recinded (MEC declarative) ghost numbers. LCC's recognition of former CEL that flowed up to LCC from ALG and PDT as US Airways pilots is based on hard fought battles within the AAA MEC and pilots of the Embraer division, known then as MDA. We prevailed, they are on our side (for now). It took the Nicolau Award for the AWA side to accept those pilots (on paper only).

Why the mini-history lesson? Because making the statements in your original post make it sound like the FT was a done deal. It wasn't. In it's haste to get pilots to fly E170's LCC management signed off on flow up. Flow back was never negotiated. Again, see VP SK's comments in Crew News. The circumstances were very different from the context of your post.

Yes, I think there should be a FT agreement and the WO pilots should have a first shot at vacancies at LCC. But, lets get the history correct. Things are not what they seem.

This issue is old and there are long posts dedicated on it in the FI.com archives. Check them out.

T8

 

[dirkdigler]

Don't forget to quote the rest of the LOA, Loser. It's not that cut and dry. My understanding is that there is an agreement right now among the unions. There was some sticking point recently with an Air Wisconsin inclusion. Why, I don't know. .............

T8

I have run into more than few mailine pilots who said that their kids work for Air Wisconsin.... I let you connect the dots.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I think the reason there is some talk about including AirWisconsin in the flow-thru discussions might have more to do with them making a 125 million dollar cash investment in LCC prior to the AWA/USAirways buyout,rather than the fact that a bunch of mainline Captain's kids are working there. Anyway,why anyone would want to sign on here with all the labor strife and senority issues festering with no end in sight,especially when Delta, United and all the rest are taking resumes again, is beyond me. What's that old saying; "Be careful what you wish for.... ?"

PHXFLYR

 

[trainer8]

Republic pilots now interviewing at LCC

Some of the interview pool are RPA pilots with 2.5 years in the E170. I know a RPA 2005 hire who just got called to interview in November. Republic pilots, if willing to move, would be a logical source to tap for the E190 positions. They probable be line qualified before I get off my freeze. :blush:

T8