To anyone interested in US Airways

[loser]

Before you accept a job at US Airways you should probably know of a pending grievance brought forth by the wholly owned subsidiaries of Airways. As part of our 2002 restructuring agreement we were granted a flow through to the mainline, which 2 years later was accepted and implemented by management.
i.e. There are pilots now working at US Airways who flowed there from the wholly owneds. MGT no longer recognizes our flow through rights and as a result we have filed a grievance. Our case is VERY strong and we are asking that anyone hired off the street on or after Nov 5th be placed junior to any pilot currently employed by a wholly owned.... roughly 1,000 pilots. Please use this information when making your decision - you may end up significantly more junior than you first expected.

I have attached an excerpt from our contract for you to read.

Following the recall of all furloughed US Airways pilots, pilots employed by a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier shall be eligible to flow through to any new-hire US Airways pilot positions in order of their seniority on the integrated seniority list of pilots of Wholly-Owned Carriers”–i.e., the Combined Eligibility List (CEL).

 

[JetMonkey]

What was the ratio for that flow through back then? I came from an express carrier that had a flow through of 3 to 1, for every 3 pilots hired one had to flow up from the wholy own. If you had something like a 3 to 1 or 2 to 1 then you need to factor that in instead of EVERYONE from the wholy own going directly on top of every off the street hire.

 

[Crzipilot]

In the language in the agreement there was no ratio. It simply stated that a WO pilot could flow up to an open postion at mainline...

 

[calfo]

shall be eligible

I don't see many guarantees in this loophole.

 

[BSkin]

In the language in the agreement there was no ratio. It simply stated that a WO pilot could flow up to an open postion at mainline...

No ratio, could flow through? -- seen this type of language before -- good luck.

 

[steveg]

So the wo's are beginning to adopt the same sense of entitlement that the usair pilots have. Nice.

What exactly are you trying to do here? Threaten the people just trying to get a job?

I get more and more disgusted with this job every day.

 

[Captain Overs]

Before you accept a job at US Airways you should probably know of a pending grievance brought forth by the wholly owned subsidiaries of Airways. As part of our 2002 restructuring agreement we were granted a flow through to the mainline, which 2 years later was accepted and implemented by management.
i.e. There are pilots now working at US Airways who flowed there from the wholly owneds. MGT no longer recognizes our flow through rights and as a result we have filed a grievance. Our case is VERY strong and we are asking that anyone hired off the street on or after Nov 5th be placed junior to any pilot currently employed by a wholly owned.... roughly 1,000 pilots. Please use this information when making your decision - you may end up significantly more junior than you first expected.

I have attached an excerpt from our contract for you to read.

Following the recall of all furloughed US Airways pilots, pilots employed by a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier shall be eligible to flow through to any new-hire US Airways pilot positions in order of their seniority on the integrated seniority list of pilots of Wholly-Owned Carriers”–i.e., the Combined Eligibility List (CEL).

"Could" is the key word. Get a clue. I've been through this sort of thing before. Your problem is that you don't have a number at Airways, you simply work for an Express Carrier. Good Luck with that one!

 

[Axel]

I dunno...

I don't see the word "could" anywhere in the exerpt, but I do see the word "shall." The word "eligible" muddies the waters a bit but there may be a fight here.

Have there been settlement discussions and/or when is the case docketed for a hearing?

 

[loser]

I'm sorry if I sounded threatening, that wasn't my intention. As far as a ratio, there will be some sort of ratio - however, off the street new hires will not be slotted in with the seniority list from the wholly owneds, but rather at the bottom. When this flow was utilized in the past 100% of the jobs went to wholly owned pilots. We realize that we won't recieve 100% of the jobs now but we do intend to protect the seniority that was intended to be ours via our restructuring agreement. Seniority which we took pay concessions and contractual concessions for.

As far as a date for arbitration, that has not yet been set. We are still in on going discussions with the company and various unions in an attempt to settle this thing amlicably. We are close and hope to resolve our differences prior to the first new hire class. If we fail to do so then we will proceed with the grievance.

 

[GOTAFLY]

loser,

you are owed nothing. why don't you try and interview like everyone else? Flow through was set up for the losers that can't get hired any where else

 

[MSNFlier]

what does "shall" mean?

Courts have interpreted shall to mean, "mandatory or required," for hundreds of years.

While I don't know the ins and outs beyond what's been posted, the language he quoted does not appear to be ambiguous - to the contrary, it's very clear.

 

[Beetle007]

Shall is not the key word. The key word is eligible. It will be interesting to see what the court's interpret eligible to mean. Also, I wonder if previous courts have interpreted the word eligible in this context?

Also, whoever writes a contract is usually held to a stricter interpretation of what they write. I'm not sure who wrote that section of the contract. But if it was union language, the courts might interpret it differently than if it is company language.

 

[loser]

Courts have interpreted shall to mean, "mandatory or required," for hundreds of years.

While I don't know the ins and outs beyond what's been posted, the language he quoted does not appear to be ambiguous - to the contrary, it's very clear.

It is very clear - but regardless, it has been utilized. US Airways MGT has set a precedent by honoring this language in the past.

The flow was not set up for those who couldn't find jobs elsewhere. It was set up for those who sacrificed and kept US Airways flying through 2 bakruptcies.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

It is very clear - but regardless, it has been utilized. US Airways MGT has set a precedent by honoring this language in the past.

The flow was not set up for those who couldn't find jobs elsewhere. It was set up for those who sacrificed and kept US Airways flying through 2 bakruptcies.

You saved USAirways?

Send in your reume and Interview like everyone else....

 

[NCFlyer]

loser,

you are owed nothing. why don't you try and interview like everyone else? Flow through was set up for the losers that can't get hired any where else

Why insult the guy?

He was just making a point that those who are considering applying to USAirways might want to consider in their decision. There are in fact at this time pilots at USAirways who:

1. Never applied
2. Never interviewed
yet were taken (flowed) from PDT & ALG to mainline. And while they can deny that any flow through exists, they'll have to explain how the PDT/ALG pilots went from WO to mainline.

If the WO's seniority is protected, those hired off the street will be junior to the CEL pilots even if the guy hired off the street is at "mainline" first.

Secondly you say that he is "owed" nothing. I'll disagree with you. He/she is "owed" or "entitled" to everything that was negotiated in the collective bargaining agreement. So one could say that he is indeed entitled to this among many other things that are addressed in the contract.

Are you "entitled" to your pay rate, vacation, sick time? I'm guessing that you would say "yes".

Did we save USAirways? Of course not. But the flow-through was something given in return for the 20% pay cut that we took in 2002.

 

[jtf]

I have no interest in the job, but if there is an agreement to hire each and every wholly owned pilot and at the mainline once they are eligible and place them above every off the street hire, then I would have to say it is in everyone's best interest to do just that. If an agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on then why should anyone at the new mainline expect any kind of fair treatment later on? Keeping to a contract only when wanted will be much worse for your future than letting them in as contractually obligated now. Good luck to all in that screwed up fight.

 

[Bdfg1]

Ah I remember something of a flow thru to mainline. Seems I also remember that those that flowed up also had the right to flow back down to their previous carrier. Remember how that worked out? Good luck on a future flow thru.

 

[JetMonkey]

Good luck with your grive. I'm not against your fight, but this sort of thing has happened before. When Continental finally started hiring after 9/11, all the flow-throughs who had PREVIOUS ASSIGNED CLASSES complained too about how they should be brought up before any new hires. However ExpressJet (Continental Express) could only let so many go at a time. Sound familar? In the end they were slotted in with new hires as they came until the last guy who was promised a spot.

 

[iflyhigh]

Per the new hire announcement at US Airways, 100 plus pilots will be coming from the Wholly owned carriers. This is per management.

Now I know PSA and Piedmont are short, they how fast the 100 or so come over, will be determined by the company. But to say the company is not honoring the agreement is not completely accurate.

I hope the express carriers did not expect all the pilots at PSA and Piedmont, who qualify, to automatically flow up to mainline when we started hiring. This would essentially shut down the wholly owns.

The west guys are pushing for the flow through. But the company can not, for simple business reasons, take every pilot from the wholly owned.

 

[FR8mastr]

I think they were talking about the remaining J4J pilots in that announcement