To all you college whiners

[T-prop]

At UPT, students solo a T-37 with about 50 hours and at T-38 with less than 150 (ball park). You can be an aircraft commander on a KC-135 with 1000tt. There are plently of T-37, T-38 and T-1 instructors out there with less than 400tt. But then again, the military is no Gulfstream academy.

I just flew with someone that has 300 hrs in A-37's from El Salvador. He was only 17 years old and droppin' nape and mini-gunnin' drug lords in a Cessna-jet.

Sorry, kinda off topic but I was amazed to hear his story. He still had to start from scratch in the states.

 

[MarineGrunt]

I just flew with someone that has 300 hrs in A-37's from El Salvador. He was only 17 years old and droppin' nape and mini-gunnin' drug lords in a Cessna-jet.

Sorry, kinda off topic but I was amazed to hear his story. He still had to start from scratch in the states.

I don't know what is more insane, the flight time, or the fact that someone actually flies a Tweet on steroids into combat...

 

[T-prop]

Ya, I know. He said that he was one of 5 that is still alive out of 30 that started training. Most died from wx, small arms fire, and even RPG's. I asked about the RPG's thinking that he meant SAM's and he said that the rebels were very excellent shots with their RPG's and had no SAM's. They flew with no O2, Parachutes, or G-suits.

He said that most bombs missed, but the mini-gun was accurate only because of the tracers. They had poor training, very abusive leadership (the kind that makes GYSGT Hartman look-like Mr. Rogers) and thus poor unit effectiveness and cohesion.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Blackpilot628 said, "those that have busted their butts to become a better pilot without going to GFT or MDP are typically better sticks..."

I don't know about that, but I think we can agree that they have superior judgement and decision-making skills.

Can I get an Amen?

 

[FlyFlyFly]

exskydiverdriver:

How did you make it through six years in the military with your attitude?

How have you managed to get through 7,000 hours of flying without a type rating?

Maybe you should have let your parents send you to college...

 

[puddlejumper101]

There is one thing about this that no one mentions. If everyone had the opportunity to have a jet job with 250 hours...would you turn it down? I doubt it...and anyone here that says they would are bluffing...if you get the opportunity go for it...there is no such thing as luck...luck is when opportunity meets preparedness. Everyone makes it seem like its soo bad to fly a jet at 250 hours, yet the military and Europeans have done this for years. If it is as unsafe as people say, then don't you think the regionals would have stopped hiring low timers already?

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

FlyFlyFly- I'm CL-65 and EMB-120 typed. (Is that better?) Folks didn't have the money for me to go to college. Read my previous post. Took my college money from the Army and spent it on flight training.

As far as my attitude goes- I'm probably as easy going and laid back as you'll ever fly with. Untill I hear someone start talking about the non-college educated "heathen" sitting in the left seat.

6 years in the military was easy. Very rarely did you come across Prima Donna's like you'll occasionally find lurking this site.

 

[flyin4jsus]

I can understand some of the Captain's comments on here. Alot, of the times it comes down to your attitude. Also, how you approach the job itself. I've seen alot of FO's that don't take pride in their job and the skill they have. I guess cause, I try to give it 100% everytime from the way I wear my Uniform, to down the way I fly. And just how I present myself, I was always taught by my parents take pride in what you do, and be humble. Don't you ever forget where you come from. The rest will fall in place!

 

[AerroMatt]

There is one thing about this that no one mentions. If everyone had the opportunity to have a jet job with 250 hours...would you turn it down? I doubt it...and anyone here that says they would are bluffing...if you get the opportunity go for it...there is no such thing as luck...luck is when opportunity meets preparedness. Everyone makes it seem like its soo bad to fly a jet at 250 hours, yet the military and Europeans have done this for years. If it is as unsafe as people say, then don't you think the regionals would have stopped hiring low timers already?

Saying the military puts guys in jets at 250hrs misses a very important point. I'm not qualified to answer about Euro airlines, but military disipline tends to knock enough of that prima donna attitude out of the student that he can be trusted to fly a high performance aircraft EXACTLY according to orders. Those who can't be trusted to follow orders to the letter are washed out. Does anyone know what the washout rate is these days from the military flight schools?

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Primarily to all you youngsters who think that just because Mommy and Daddy paid for you to get a 4 yr degree and ratings, Or that by taking a commission in the Armed forces, that
you must be entitled to some kind of major carrier "birth-right".

Rant all you want about how some obviously uneducated and undeserving person is sitting in "your" seat.(sky-dud 25) I've read this in several threads now. Consider the road some of us uneducated and undeserving people have travelled to get here.

4 years construction. 6years enlisted Army. Took my college money and went to a 121 flight school. 1800 hrs dual given. 2 yrs corporate F.O. doing every job associated with the position. about 1500 hrs driving skydivers. Another 1 and 1/2 yrs Air Ambulance. Now at 6 years in a regional.

Still think you're better qualified than me? Answer yes and you are truly lying to yourself. Want to see this industry turn around? Quit thinking that by graduating from "The Academy" that you're better than all of those around you. And that you're ready to take the left seat of that shiny jet, and that you'll go anywhere and undercut anyone to do it.

First off, lemme apologize on behalf of those that act like a prick to you, second please don't lump all "younger" pilots into that group.

I'm gonna ask a very broad and general question, is it the total time or the attitude, or a combination that bothers you? Attitude I can understand, but if you don't see that these people had and will have this attitude from the begining and they will keep it through their entire careers, I don't know what to tell you. It's not the school(s) that bread the attitude, it's the individual.

On the point of raising pay and QOL by requiring a FAR change that puts a min number of hours on being a 121 FO. How is that going to work?? I am no contract guru but I don't think a company (PDT, ASA, COMAIR, etc) is going to say "Oh lookie, FOs are required to have 1500 TT and an ATP, lets raise FO pay". Maybe when negotiations come up, but only if all the senior captains (who outnumber the junior FOs) will agree to a lesser pay raise to raise first through fifth year FO pay. I would do it, would you, can you say the same for all you friends that are captains??

There is no need for a college degree to fly an airplane, ANYONE can fly an airplane safely and competently, ANYONE!!! All going to UND or ERAU, or Ohio or Purdue, etc offers is all your ratings, almost a guaranteed instructor job, an easy way to finance your training (student loans, scholarships, grants, etc) and a college degree so you have some other skill set if flying doesn't pan out for whatever reason. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Getting a degree before starting out into flyine (ie paying a lot of money for your ratings) is smart. You have something to fall back on incase you cant fly or find out the 121 or 135 or Corp. 91 world is not for you. Sure you spent some cash on the ratings BUT you also got your degree at the same time. Now you can fall back on that instead of having to go back to school while paying off your flying debt.

The way a lot of you describe these FOs sounds a lot like the FOs at my last job. Sunglasses inside, spikey hair, ratty uniforms etc, and all these guys had taken the "respectable" route. These guys had been there for a while, and all of us new guys were by the book, humble(d) and still got crap for being from UND. I don't think it's a TT

What's my point? Look at the individual not the school they came from or their TT.

 

[AerroMatt]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

"It's just a hand in the bush."
Ozzy Osborne,
No More Tears

 

[DC8 Flyer]

"It's just a hand in the bush."
Ozzy Osborne,
No More Tears

You know, I'm usually the one that goes into the gutter first, Bravo, Bravo...


:beer:

 

[AerroMatt]

DC8,

That's just what happens when an old Rockin' Truck Driver starts posting!

 

[FlyFlyFly]

As far as my attitude goes- I'm probably as easy going and laid back as you'll ever fly with. Untill I hear someone start talking about the non-college educated "heathen" sitting in the left seat.

I have always said that when you throw a rock into a group of dogs, the one that yelps is the one you hit.

You wouldn't give other's comments the time of day if you didn't somehow have a sore spot around not having completed college.

Remember, you made it an issue. They just made comments.

 

[Prop2Jet]

ExSkydiverguy,

I don't know you but you are one angry person. I am not to judge but what purpose does your post serve? Thanks for your service in the Army!

You know people who go to college don't always have their parents pay, they take out loans which follow them for years--Just like flight school loans do unless you had uncle Sam pay for it or some of it which is a great thing so your not swimming in debt. Some people suck and flaunt their edjumacations but so what. If your happy that should not bother you.

Cheer up bro don't worry about those people just take care of yourself.

Cheers

P2J

 

[AerroMatt]

Some people suck and flaunt their edjumacations

Edjumacation!?!?!? Shoot! I ain't heard nobody use that phrase since I retired from truckin' years ago! Did you drive Over the Road too?

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Still think you're better qualified than me?

Yes.

Did everything you did, plus 8 years in the army. And I went and got a college degree. Now working on the Masters.

And I must add, my degree has been very handy on the ol resume...

 

[ultrarunner]

The 1200TT is for PIC. The 135 world has 300 hour super F/O's as well.

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing..

...that I wasn't aware of 135 doing any great service of upholding qualifications???

 

[Turbo]

Yes.

Did everything you did, plus 8 years in the army. And I went and got a college degree. Now working on the Masters.

And I must add, my degree has been very handy on the ol resume...

Well said, wolfpackpilot.

The vast majority of people finance their own education, probably because they value it. The fact is people who value learning (whether they have a degree or not) are much more interesting to be around, and make better informed citizens.

We all know you don't need a degree to be qualified to fly an airplane; that's not the point. Pilotyip has reminded us of this many times! Yet he is one of the most educated people on this board (both in terms of experience and degrees), and I enjoy the irony in that.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Reading comprehension folks. Please review the first paragraph of my first post on this thread. I'm not an angry person. In my opinion it was pretty clear that I was talking about the few who think a degree or military training is somehow mandatory for this job. I had a much longer reply - but ALAS my computor dumped it.

I will say that spikey hair does not bother me. Tounge rings in the cockpit and using back packs for flight bags does.

 

[AerroMatt]

Tongue bolts wouldn't bother me so long as its a she with one and she's bobbin' on the knobbin'... She shouldn't have it in the cockpit though.

I thought Spiked Hair went out of fashion 20+ years ago along with Punk Rock music. Back packs should be for college students, not grads.

 

[Gelopilot79]

Everyone has thier own path. For the thred starter, although the path you took to get where you are is a fairly noble and unorthodox,no one is gloating about being a college grad and whining why they don't have a shiny jet job at 25 with 500TT. At least I don't see it. I think everyone pays thier dues one way or another. I am a university grad, flew jumpers, got my CFII, flying 135, getting paid less then some of my buddies who just sit in an office and file papers for lawyers, and I am not complaining about any of it at all, although I know I can probably get a job at Mesa with my time now, I rather get more expeirence and be pateint to get a right seat at a better place with better pay.
So good for u for what u did, but by boasting your credentials, your making yourself out to be like that "cocky & whiny college grad".

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

This is why I started this...

Quote from Skystud25-This very subject came up in my mind the other night when I hopped on a Mesa CRJ 700 to get to work and wanted to ask the little girl in the right seat if her parents knew where she was. Another academy product with 1000 hours and two years on the job. She was of course sitting next to your standard civilian time only RJ captain with ~ 5-6 years under his belt and no prospects other than his shootty regional where he'd built a bit of seniority. Just the kind of scope-busting crew the major executives dream about.

If you share this guys point of view then I'm addressing you. If not I'm not talking about you. Does everyone understand now?

 

[skystud25]

Issues?

Exskydiverdrivr- Nice resume. From the context of your message one would assume that you think it's impressive? Well I got a news-flash for you sport, the mil guys that you've labeled as thinking they're entitled to a major carrier "birth right" are having a good belly laugh right now. I'm still looking for the part of it where you were actually challenged by the flying. As for college, not everyone is cut out for it. Those are usually the people who take their college money and use it for something else, and then whine for the rest of their years about how they needed to work or decided to dump it into a flight school instead of waste it on a worthless degree. It's called an inferiority complex, and dumping on military, college grads, or even the academy grads won't help you deal with it.

Primarily to all you youngsters who think that just because Mommy and Daddy paid for you to get a 4 yr degree and ratings, Or that by taking a commission in the Armed forces, that
you must be entitled to some kind of major carrier "birth-right".

Rant all you want about how some obviously uneducated and undeserving person is sitting in "your" seat.(sky-dud 25) I've read this in several threads now. Consider the road some of us uneducated and undeserving people have travelled to get here.

4 years construction. 6years enlisted Army. Took my college money and went to a 121 flight school. 1800 hrs dual given. 2 yrs corporate F.O. doing every job associated with the position. about 1500 hrs driving skydivers. Another 1 and 1/2 yrs Air Ambulance. Now at 6 years in a regional.

Still think you're better qualified than me? Answer yes and you are truly lying to yourself. Want to see this industry turn around? Quit thinking that by graduating from "The Academy" that you're better than all of those around you. And that you're ready to take the left seat of that shiny jet, and that you'll go anywhere and undercut anyone to do it.

 

[skystud25]

Now I get it...

...You think I was busting on this guy because he's civilian time only. Poor wording on my part. I was only refering to the huge number of rj captains out there with 1-2K hours pic trying to get on with a major with nothing else to distinguish them from the others, ie being a check-airman or having some mil experience, and the difficulty in leaving when they'd built that type of seniority. I can see why it pissed you off though.

This is why I started this...

Quote from Skystud25-This very subject came up in my mind the other night when I hopped on a Mesa CRJ 700 to get to work and wanted to ask the little girl in the right seat if her parents knew where she was. Another academy product with 1000 hours and two years on the job. She was of course sitting next to your standard civilian time only RJ captain with ~ 5-6 years under his belt and no prospects other than his shootty regional where he'd built a bit of seniority. Just the kind of scope-busting crew the major executives dream about.

If you share this guys point of view then I'm addressing you. If not I'm not talking about you. Does everyone understand now?

 

[Skaff]

4 years construction = 0 PIC Time
6years enlisted Army. = 0 PIC Time
Took my college money and went to a 121 flight school. 1800 hrs dual given. = 0 PIC Time
2 yrs corporate F.O. doing every job associated with the position.= 0 PIC Time
about 1500 hrs driving skydivers. = 1500 hrs PIC/ 0 PIC outside of a 25nm range from the airport.
Another 1 and 1/2 yrs Air Ambulance.= Whoopidy doo, who hasn't done at least one cool thing.
Now at 6 years in a regional.= Your on the same level as most of us.

Still think you're better qualified than me? Maybe.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

4 years construction = 0 PIC Time
6years enlisted Army. = 0 PIC Time
Took my college money and went to a 121 flight school. 1800 hrs dual given. = 0 PIC Time
2 yrs corporate F.O. doing every job associated with the position.= 0 PIC Time
about 1500 hrs driving skydivers. = 1500 hrs PIC/ 0 PIC outside of a 25nm range from the airport.
Another 1 and 1/2 yrs Air Ambulance.= Whoopidy doo, who hasn't done at least one cool thing.
Now at 6 years in a regional.= Your on the same level as most of us.

Still think you're better qualified than me? Maybe.

You're right- Someone finally got it! I am on the same level as most of you.

Just to repeat one more time what has been said a thousand times.

 

[Skaff]

You're right- Someone finally got it! I am on the same level as most of you.

Just to repeat one more time what has been said a thousand times.

The only real difference is that you should have spent those 4 years of construction in school.

Late

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Wish I could have. However, I think we're debating a moot point if one still thinks it takes a four year degree to do this job. I will also say that if there is still anyone out there who thinks a case like mine somehow "weakens the proffesion", I will submit that if I quit tommorrow- it would NOT strengthen the bargaining position of Pilots one bit. I only quoted skystud because his was ther only post I could readily find. Flame away boys- I'm tired of responding to this and await another challenging debate. By the way I'm not knocking the college- It is a great way to achieve the discipline and usually - although not always, the maturity. There are alot of roads one can take to achieve both.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

The key issue here to understand:

Life is full of discriminators, from pro sports to the medical field. No matter the career, a certain number of positions are available. As applicants meet the minimum qualifications, they enter a pool with everyone else. When there are more positions than applicants, usually everyone gets hired, (i.e. airline business of 98-2000). When there are more applicants than positions…

You guessed it, its time to discriminate. And guess what? Having/or not having a four Bachelors Degree is on top of the list. In aviation, I would guess military experience of some type would come in a close second.

I’m sitting in Flight Safety right now going through G-V/550/450 school. I’m with the cream of the crop in corporate and military flying, I’ll ask everyone in my class if they have a 4 year degree; my bet is all 12 of them say yes. Stand by until tomorrow for the answer.