To all you college whiners

[LoveGun]

Skydivedriver,

Why didn't you just get student loans instead of doing all that other crap? You would have been in the left seat faster. I went to a big aviation school (UND), had a fun college experience, and now am a captain at a regional. The money lost on student loan interest is more than made up for by the additional years of captain pay. If I would have gone a different route than student loans, worked contruction, I'd still be an FO. How much did your contruction job pay? How about your years in the military? Your story makes it sound like you took a six year detour on the route to the left seat. As a captain I'm making around $70,000 per year. Multiply that by six years and you get $420,000. I think the bank is going to make about $20,000 in interest off my student loans. That leaves me $400,000 up compared to your military construction worker path.

 

[BlackPilot628]

Your 100% correct. You worked for it. you were hired with over 12oott and i am sure you will agree you were much more confident and skillfull in your flying at 1400 tt then you where at 250 or 500 tt. Not saying 1200 is an incredible amount of flight time but much more qualified after flying some PIC time. We are talking about the Mesa programs and Allatp programs and Gulftream acadamy programs, etc. I know there are alot of good people that go into some of these programs just unaware of whats going on but that doesnt mean the programs are ok or good for the industry. Something just needs to be done to shut down some of these buy your job companies.

I can agree with that as well. Some of the programs are very shoty at best; but they will never go anywhere as long as Carriers keep doing programs with these flight schools.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

quote- Mr. Bigglesworth;Will you be the father of my first born child?

Didn't your old lady tell you yet? BTW I like that trick she does withe ice cubes.

 

[BlackPilot628]

quote- Mr. Bigglesworth;Will you be the father of my first born child?

Didn't your old lady tell you yet? BTW I like that trick she does withe ice cubes.

YAWN! Oh that's mature.

 

[AerroMatt]

250hrs in an RF is too low!?!?

Mesa Pilot Devlp. program. They're getting jobs flying CRJ's/E145's with 250 hours. That is a little to low.

A little too low!?!? Methinks an FO with 250hrs in an RJ will barely be able to perform "Gear UP, Flaps UP, Shut UP!" I'd hate to be a capt having to deal with an FO who has only 250TT. Puts way too much burden on the Captain (not to mention workload).

 

[AerroMatt]

Yanno, no one ever mentions the fact that a 250TT FO will spend a LOT of years in the right seat at a carrier before he EVER gets enough TT to move to the left seat!

 

[gkrangers]

No one should snub their nose at you if you have a level head on you like it looks like you do. Just keep punching away. Just keep trying to point people in the right direction is all you can do.

I do much pointing...

 

[BlackPilot628]

A little too low!?!? Methinks an FO with 250hrs in an RJ will barely be able to perform "Gear UP, Flaps UP, Shut UP!" I'd hate to be a capt having to deal with an FO who has only 250TT. Puts way too much burden on the Captain (not to mention workload).

I agree with your statement. I just wasn't quite as blunt as you were. :smash:
It's all good!

 

[gkrangers]

Yanno, no one ever mentions the fact that a 250TT FO will spend a LOT of years in the right seat at a carrier before he EVER gets enough TT to move to the left seat!

Eh..whats an extra 1 year? Most regional newhires are in the 1000-1500 range...putting on 1000 hours in a year, or close to it if they fly a lot, and they'll be just a year behind the rest...

 

[AerroMatt]

Eh..whats an extra 1 year? Most regional newhires are in the 1000-1500 range...putting on 1000 hours in a year, or close to it if they fly a lot, and they'll be just a year behind the rest...

But what about PIC times? Does the lack of PIC time factor into this mix? I've never worked at a regional, so i don't know.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Marine grunt and all the who criticized my post- All I was doing was pointing out the immaturity of a few who think they're somehow more entitled, or that those who did not go to college really don't belong in an airplane. I also point out a few- not all, just a few who feel that their military flight time transcends above civilian time.

Understood. However, personally, I think that my military flight time is WAY, WAY better flight time than any other time I have and still believe that it is the best flight time you can get almost anywhere. Do I deserve special attention? No, but at the same time, I find it sort of ridiculous that I have to go rent a Cessna 172 and burn around the pattern for another 200 hours to qualify me for a regional job, but hey, thats the game and we all have to play it.

Previous post retracted.

 

[AerroMatt]

Semper Fi, Grunt. Thank you for your service to our country.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Semper Fi, Grunt. Thank you for your service to our country.

Wish I still packed the gear for the grunt stuff, but I'm getting old! Now enjoying the easy life! Beats workin for a living.(Still run a first class PFT though!)

 

[gkrangers]

Wish I still packed the gear for the grunt stuff, but I'm getting old! Now enjoying the easy life! Beats workin for a living.(Still run a first class PFT though!)

Those 3 letters mean something different around here.

 

[Nancy Pryor]

A little too low!?!? Methinks an FO with 250hrs in an RJ will barely be able to perform "Gear UP, Flaps UP, Shut UP!" I'd hate to be a capt having to deal with an FO who has only 250TT. Puts way too much burden on the Captain (not to mention workload).

No kidding. 250 hours is barely commercial pilot minimums -- legal in the right seat of an RJ I suppose but not very realistic. I feel sorry for the captains who have to fly the RJ single pilot and babysit the 250 hour "airline pilot" in the right seat. There just isn't enough time in 250 hours to have sufficient real world experience to belong in the cockpit of an airline jet carrying the flying public. Shoot, at under 250 hours even traffic watch and banner towing isn't allowed, but at 250 hours suddenly it's ok to be an "airline pilot" flying hard IFR in crappy wx in a 50+ seat jet under Part 121? Something's wrong here.

 

[AerroMatt]

Makes me wonder what the paying Mesa passengers would think if they knew there was a 250hr Vunderkind in the right seat of their RJ???

 

[gkrangers]

No kidding. 250 hours is barely commercial pilot minimums -- legal in the right seat of an RJ I suppose but not very realistic. I feel sorry for the captains who have to fly the RJ single pilot and babysit the 250 hour "airline pilot" in the right seat. There just isn't enough time in 250 hours to have sufficient real world experience to belong in the cockpit of an airline jet carrying the flying public. Shoot, at under 250 hours even traffic watch and banner towing isn't allowed, but at 250 hours suddenly it's ok to be an "airline pilot" flying hard IFR in crappy wx in a 50+ seat jet under Part 121? Something's wrong here.

Just to put into perspective....I think ERAU here in Daytona has a bridge program with ASA..300TT maybe? Maybe less? I'm not positive, maybe an ASAer can shed some light. How much actual insturment time do you think we get down there? My only legit IMC is a few hours (and it was fun) on a flight from JYO (Leesburg, VA) to Florida...My TT is 215. Actual is probably 5 hours.

Lets just say I wouldn't want my first ILS to mins to be in a RJ....

 

[gkrangers]

Makes me wonder what the paying Mesa passengers would think if they knew there was a 250hr Vunderkind in the right seat of their RJ???

"250 hours? That sounds like a lot of time."

 

[BlackPilot628]

Hell, Those Mesa Pilot program guys don't get any Actual. It's always 30-50SM vis out west.

 

[BlackPilot628]

Is everyone still up because they're watching this never ending ball game?

 

[AerroMatt]

Hell, Those Mesa Pilot program guys don't get any Actual. It's always 30-50SM vis out west.

Au contrare! When it goes down, it SUCKS! Either its Cb's, or its a snowstorm. Not a good time to try your first ever career ILS to mins in an RJ.

 

[BlackPilot628]

Games over now boys. Bedtime

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Quote BlackPilot628-YAWN! Oh that's mature.

I know- an immature response to an immature insult.

LoveGun- I didn't take a student loan because I had never planned on being an Airline Pilot. My first goal was simply a Private rating for fun. The rest of the ratings came because I enjoyed the challenge. After I had determined that a career in the Army wasn't for me, Aviation seemed like a logical course of action.

I only started this thread because I wanted to point out to some of the self proclaimed prodigys how stupid they sounded when they insinuated they were somehow superior to non college educated pilots.

 

[BoilerUP]

No kidding. 250 hours is barely commercial pilot minimums -- legal in the right seat of an RJ I suppose but not very realistic. I feel sorry for the captains who have to fly the RJ single pilot and babysit the 250 hour "airline pilot" in the right seat. There just isn't enough time in 250 hours to have sufficient real world experience to belong in the cockpit of an airline jet carrying the flying public. Shoot, at under 250 hours even traffic watch and banner towing isn't allowed, but at 250 hours suddenly it's ok to be an "airline pilot" flying hard IFR in crappy wx in a 50+ seat jet under Part 121? Something's wrong here.

Shhhhhh, better not tell those Lufthansa and British Airways passengers who have a 300TT IRO or First Officer in the cockpit of anything from a A319 to a 772. I'm not saying ab initio is right or wrong, but its been done for DECADES with few if any problems in large Boeing or Airbus aircraft. As stated, the lowtime FO will be in the right seat for years until they have the time to upgrade, making them very knowledgable and experienced once they upgrade.

I don't think there are any 250 hour wet-ink commercial pilots flying as Part 121 crewmembers in the United States. If I recall correctly, I think the MAPD program is in excess of 300 before they even try to place you. Not a huge amount more, but its important to know in the interest of accuracy and avoiding sensationalism.

The only reason traffic watch and banner towing isn't possible for most 250hr pilots is INSURANCE. The insurance providers realize training in those jobs is next to nonexistant, plus they come with a higher degree of risk flying lower and slower than the average operation. If a pilot can make it through a 121 ground and simulator training program (not all do), their risk is mitigated and insurance can sometimes make allowances.

I've said it time and time again...its not the TT column of your logbook that matters, its the education, knowledge and experiences within your TT that matters.

 

[h25b]

No kidding. 250 hours is barely commercial pilot minimums -- legal in the right seat of an RJ I suppose but not very realistic. I feel sorry for the captains who have to fly the RJ single pilot and babysit the 250 hour "airline pilot" in the right seat. There just isn't enough time in 250 hours to have sufficient real world experience to belong in the cockpit of an airline jet carrying the flying public. Shoot, at under 250 hours even traffic watch and banner towing isn't allowed, but at 250 hours suddenly it's ok to be an "airline pilot" flying hard IFR in crappy wx in a 50+ seat jet under Part 121? Something's wrong here.

Would you like me to start counting the numbers of 3000+ hr. idiots I've flown with ? As for "hard IFR in a 50+ seat jet?" WTF.. Lets be realistic here. I have somewhere over 3000 hrs. of time in glass cockpit turbine aircraft and can't say that I have seen over 10 hrs. flown by a crewmate by hand. Sure buddy, that's "hard" ...

I was hired in to the SF-340 with about 650 TT among my 11 other new hire class mates all with over 2500 TT. I was one of the 6 of us that made it to the line.

I guess you've got it figured out better than probably thousands of insurance underwriters that make it their living to place a number on what quantity of flight experience makes someone safe.

Now if you'd like to move this discussion back to whether or not these kids need to mature or if their attitude is good for the profession, I'll digress. I would, however, support a new FAR prohibiting the use of the following terms on the flightdeck:

1. "Douchebag"
2. "Dude"
3. "Whore" or "Ho"

 

[rfa]

Welp, all I know is that they do it in Europe and the Orient, the military has them flying single seat jet fighters by the time they hit 500 hrs or so, and back in the day 18-year-old kids where flying 2000 HP and 400 MPH taildraggers with 200 HRS or less.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Welp, all I know is that they do it in Europe and the Orient, the military has them flying single seat jet fighters by the time they hit 500 hrs or so, and back in the day 18-year-old kids where flying 2000 HP and 400 MPH taildraggers with 200 HRS or less.

At UPT, students solo a T-37 with about 50 hours and at T-38 with less than 150 (ball park). You can be an aircraft commander on a KC-135 with 1000tt. There are plently of T-37, T-38 and T-1 instructors out there with less than 400tt. But then again, the military is no Gulfstream academy.

 

[Nancy Pryor]

I have somewhere over 3000 hrs. of time in glass cockpit turbine aircraft and can't say that I have seen over 10 hrs. flown by a crewmate by hand. Sure buddy, that's "hard" ...

Good points above. Of course total time is not the only indicator. If the quality of training is there a 250-300tt pilot can be competent in a 319 or 772. How does the Mesa ab initio program compare to the British Airways and Lufthansa programs in quality of training?

10 hours of hand flying in over 3000 hours. Are you saying that pilots are competent in an RJ at 300tt, or that they don't really need to be because of the automation?

Now if you'd like to move this discussion back to whether or not these kids need to mature or if their attitude is good for the profession, I'll digress.

I agree 100% with that.

I would, however, support a new FAR prohibiting the use of the following terms on the flightdeck:

1. "Douchebag"
2. "Dude"
3. "Whore" or "Ho"

That would get my vote, with emphasis on rule 2. That term belongs at the mall and the skateboard park. Anyone over the age of 18 saying "dude" sounds like an idiot.

 

[PCL_128]

A little too low!?!? Methinks an FO with 250hrs in an RJ will barely be able to perform "Gear UP, Flaps UP, Shut UP!" I'd hate to be a capt having to deal with an FO who has only 250TT. Puts way too much burden on the Captain (not to mention workload).

Give me a break, it's not that big of a deal. I've flown with a few of the interns, CAPT program grads, and GIA pilots that were hired with less than 500TT, some with right at 250-300TT. Overall, they do a fine job and don't really increase my workload at all. By contrast, I've flown with a few 3000TT FOs that I have to watch like a hawk. The TT really means very little for an FO. The best thing in an FO is the willingness to learn and follow procedures. The CA is there to make the tough decisions and to pull from past experiences. As Boiler said, the rest of the world has been hiring 250TT FOs into Airbus and Boeing equipment for decades. This is nothing radical or extreme.

The one problem I do have with the young low-time guys (and I used to be one, hired at Pinnacle with 900TT or so), is the attitude that many of them have. The spiked hair, the refusal to wear the hat ("Because it would totally mess up the hair, dude!!"), the iPod while walking in the terminal, the backpack, the Miller Lite sticker on the flight bag, etc.... Although there are notable exceptions, the low-time guys seem to have this problem a lot more than the more experienced freight dogs that we sometimes get. That's the only problem I see though. Their flying skills are fine, and most of them have no trouble flying the airplane by the time they finish OE. Claiming that they are unsafe just isn't accurate from what I've seen.

 

[BlackPilot628]

PCL. I agree with you to a point.

I can honestly say that I was a better pilot at 1000 hours than I was at 250 hours. TT is not everything, but it does account for something. Do we need a part 121 flight time reg, NO!
I don't think people are really dogging those pilots that got hired at low times, they're dogging how they got where they are. Dish out 40 grand, go to GFT, and get a dream job with an airline. OR be a CFI, Freight dog, and single pilot charter. Whatever the case may be, those that have busted their butts to become a better pilot without going to GFT or MDP are typically better sticks and have sharper IFR skills.