meanstreak
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To all mesa pilots
- Thread starter d328pilot
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ChinaClipper,
Give me a break. I imagine you had to walk 5 miles through a foot of snow in hand me down sandals just to go dump those lavs. I'm sure it gave you a real solid perspective on the airline industry. I am sure years of pumping $hit didn't help that hot temper any.
I am fully aware that you are in Section 6 negotiations and I wish you guys all the best for you are a dead weight on the career expectations of other regionals most notably Pdt, Alg, and Psa. When Siegal came to us and said match Mesa's cost structure or be shut down quite a few WO pilots wished you guys had never agreed to an industry bottom contract.
On 8/27 in reference to Freedom's proposed payrates you said "please don't do it for so little, giving it away now will take yeaaars to recoup." Well I can point you to about 800 pdt and alg pilots who feel like that is exactly what you guys (mesa) did with your first contract. Many felt like you set the bar so low that we have had to fight it ever since. I don't have much invested in the wo so I won't be too distraught when we are shut down but I can point you to many guys about to lose 15+ years of seniority that dislike mesa to such an extreme it is like a cult religion. I would also like to re-iterate I hope you guys get an industry leading contract. It would help us all.
Give me a break. I imagine you had to walk 5 miles through a foot of snow in hand me down sandals just to go dump those lavs. I'm sure it gave you a real solid perspective on the airline industry. I am sure years of pumping $hit didn't help that hot temper any.
I am fully aware that you are in Section 6 negotiations and I wish you guys all the best for you are a dead weight on the career expectations of other regionals most notably Pdt, Alg, and Psa. When Siegal came to us and said match Mesa's cost structure or be shut down quite a few WO pilots wished you guys had never agreed to an industry bottom contract.
On 8/27 in reference to Freedom's proposed payrates you said "please don't do it for so little, giving it away now will take yeaaars to recoup." Well I can point you to about 800 pdt and alg pilots who feel like that is exactly what you guys (mesa) did with your first contract. Many felt like you set the bar so low that we have had to fight it ever since. I don't have much invested in the wo so I won't be too distraught when we are shut down but I can point you to many guys about to lose 15+ years of seniority that dislike mesa to such an extreme it is like a cult religion. I would also like to re-iterate I hope you guys get an industry leading contract. It would help us all.
"When Siegal came to us and said match Mesa's cost structure or be shut down quite a few WO pilots wished you guys had never agreed to an industry bottom contract. "
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The sad thing is that you guys feel this way yet you sold out and took Siegal's crap ass contract and soon you will be the lowest paid Jet pilots bringing down the industry. Let's face it, you guys are no better then the Mesa pilots you hate so much! -Bean
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The sad thing is that you guys feel this way yet you sold out and took Siegal's crap ass contract and soon you will be the lowest paid Jet pilots bringing down the industry. Let's face it, you guys are no better then the Mesa pilots you hate so much! -Bean
Gentlemen,
You are all wasting time and energy when regional pilots fight with other regional pilots. That is exactly what our "enemies" want.
Notice that the word "enemies" is plural. That's not a mistake, it is intentional. There are two adversaries of regional pilots in this battle. One of them is management and the other, regretably, is the ALPA. You are playing into the hands of both of them.
There is a huge conflict of interest within the union and the leaders of the union have chosen sides. They did NOT choose regional pilots.
Jets for Jobs is a bad policy and it is also a policy that is directly opposed to the best interests of regional pilots. ALL of us! It should be rejected by all regional pilots!
The ALG/PDT and PSA pilots were boxed in and literally forced to sign on to this disgusting policy. Management didn't do that alone, ALPA helped the mainline pilots (and therefore management) to do this. They did not have to, they wanted to. It should be obvious to all of us whose interests they were protecting and at whose expense. J4J is an ALPA idea, not a management idea. We should start by recognizing it for what it is and stop the pretense.
MESA pilots are being boxed in as well. On one side AWA pilots, with the full support of ALPA, are trying to scope out the MESA pilots. On the other side there is Freedom, created as a direct result of ALPA's predatory scope policies and now being used against the MESA pilots.
The MESA pilots have NO logical reason to vote for J4J. USAir Group needs those jets and does not care who flys them. MESA pilots have no reason to give half the seats to US Airways pilots, just because ALPA would like them to do that. If USAir Group can come up with the money to buy them, they can put them at Mid Atlantic (ALPA's created equivalent of Freedom) and let the USAirways pilots fly them there. They are not doing that right now because they can't.
They can also place those 20 jets at MESA or some other contract carrier without J4J. If ALL regional pilots refuse to accept J4J (which I believe they should), management will find a way to operate those jets at MESA without J4J. Do not let ALPA sucker you into believing that there is "no other way". ALPA is merely trying to protect the interest of mainline pilots at the expense of regional pilots. Management doesn't care WHO flies those planes, they only care about the money. J4J is not a management scheme, it is an ALPA scheme to transfer regional flying to the mainline.
CCAir is out of business. The CCAir pilots have numbers on the MESA seniority list. (Yes, I know that JO hasn't accepted that yet). If anybody not at MESA today gets the "extra jobs" it should be the CCAir pilots, NOT the mainline pilots.
Please don't mistake what I'm trying to say. I'm not against mainline pilots, I just don't think the union should be in the business of forcing regional pilots to give up their seniority and their contracts to accomodate furloughed mainline pilots. That is dead wrong and it is exactly what the union has done.
The union must be forced to act fairly and protect the rights of regional pilots, just as it protects the rights of mainline pilots. Mainline pilots have NO RIGHT to the jobs of regional pilots. A vote in favor of J4J would give them such rights. That is wrong and it should NOT happen.
Unfortunately, a lot of regional pilot leaders seem to continue to believe that the powers that be in our union are defending them even though the evidence is very heavy that isn't so. Until regional pilots stand up together and actively defend their rights, they will lose those rights to the people that want to take them away.
Giving in to J4J will not, IMO, help the MESA pilots. Saying NO to J4J will not hurt the MESA pilots either. However a NO vote will show that we regional pilots won't stand for any more of this one-sided union. As long as we let the union continue to favor one group of its members at the expense of the other, they will continue to do that.
We have no one to blame but ourselves.
You are all wasting time and energy when regional pilots fight with other regional pilots. That is exactly what our "enemies" want.
Notice that the word "enemies" is plural. That's not a mistake, it is intentional. There are two adversaries of regional pilots in this battle. One of them is management and the other, regretably, is the ALPA. You are playing into the hands of both of them.
There is a huge conflict of interest within the union and the leaders of the union have chosen sides. They did NOT choose regional pilots.
Jets for Jobs is a bad policy and it is also a policy that is directly opposed to the best interests of regional pilots. ALL of us! It should be rejected by all regional pilots!
The ALG/PDT and PSA pilots were boxed in and literally forced to sign on to this disgusting policy. Management didn't do that alone, ALPA helped the mainline pilots (and therefore management) to do this. They did not have to, they wanted to. It should be obvious to all of us whose interests they were protecting and at whose expense. J4J is an ALPA idea, not a management idea. We should start by recognizing it for what it is and stop the pretense.
MESA pilots are being boxed in as well. On one side AWA pilots, with the full support of ALPA, are trying to scope out the MESA pilots. On the other side there is Freedom, created as a direct result of ALPA's predatory scope policies and now being used against the MESA pilots.
The MESA pilots have NO logical reason to vote for J4J. USAir Group needs those jets and does not care who flys them. MESA pilots have no reason to give half the seats to US Airways pilots, just because ALPA would like them to do that. If USAir Group can come up with the money to buy them, they can put them at Mid Atlantic (ALPA's created equivalent of Freedom) and let the USAirways pilots fly them there. They are not doing that right now because they can't.
They can also place those 20 jets at MESA or some other contract carrier without J4J. If ALL regional pilots refuse to accept J4J (which I believe they should), management will find a way to operate those jets at MESA without J4J. Do not let ALPA sucker you into believing that there is "no other way". ALPA is merely trying to protect the interest of mainline pilots at the expense of regional pilots. Management doesn't care WHO flies those planes, they only care about the money. J4J is not a management scheme, it is an ALPA scheme to transfer regional flying to the mainline.
CCAir is out of business. The CCAir pilots have numbers on the MESA seniority list. (Yes, I know that JO hasn't accepted that yet). If anybody not at MESA today gets the "extra jobs" it should be the CCAir pilots, NOT the mainline pilots.
Please don't mistake what I'm trying to say. I'm not against mainline pilots, I just don't think the union should be in the business of forcing regional pilots to give up their seniority and their contracts to accomodate furloughed mainline pilots. That is dead wrong and it is exactly what the union has done.
The union must be forced to act fairly and protect the rights of regional pilots, just as it protects the rights of mainline pilots. Mainline pilots have NO RIGHT to the jobs of regional pilots. A vote in favor of J4J would give them such rights. That is wrong and it should NOT happen.
Unfortunately, a lot of regional pilot leaders seem to continue to believe that the powers that be in our union are defending them even though the evidence is very heavy that isn't so. Until regional pilots stand up together and actively defend their rights, they will lose those rights to the people that want to take them away.
Giving in to J4J will not, IMO, help the MESA pilots. Saying NO to J4J will not hurt the MESA pilots either. However a NO vote will show that we regional pilots won't stand for any more of this one-sided union. As long as we let the union continue to favor one group of its members at the expense of the other, they will continue to do that.
We have no one to blame but ourselves.
And 1900, when MGMT at ASA, ACA, Comair and Air Wisky go to there pilots and say "we can't compete against US Airways express because there costs are so much lower then ours, we need you to take a pay cut", these pilots are going to "dislike PDT, ALG and PSA to such an extreme it is like a cult religion." The WO's at US Airways may do more damage to the industry then anyone. How ironic isn't it. Maybe you shouldn't follow those who you think are in the wrong. -Bean
BoredToDeath
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 171
Oh boy,
Here is the famous tag-team duo (China Clipper and Beantown) at it again. And still China Clipper is screaming about how the WO have accepted lower pay than Mesa. I would have hoped that you know better than that.
We didn't accept anything it was forced on us. And I'll tell you this one more time and hopefully it'll get through that thick head of yours. Your rates up to a Five Year Capt. are the only thing that are pennies higher. Infact a Three Year FO (which is the highest FO at PSA only cause he won't upgrade for whatever reason) makes $35 less a month based on a 75 hour month on rates alone. Once you add our per diem and work rules our same FO bypasses yours by quite a bit more. So please put that dog to sleep.
You also said," Furloughed twice, job eliminated once, had one carrier shut down(PAA) and don't suffer novice fools easily......."
I thought your daddy worked at PAA, now you did too. Or are you ref. the PAA that was born from Carnival Airlines and turned into an even worse company.
Do me a favor and leave the I did this and I did that attitude out. Nobody gives a rats A$$ what you or your family did.
Beantown said, "And 1900, when MGMT at ASA, ACA, Comair and Air Wisky go to there pilots and say "we can't compete against US Airways express because there costs are so much lower then ours, we need you to take a pay cut", these pilots are going to "dislike PDT, ALG and PSA to such an extreme it is like a cult religion." The WO's at US Airways may do more damage to the industry then anyone. How ironic isn't it. Maybe you shouldn't follow those who you think are in the wrong. -Bean"
Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. We are supposed to be in competition with these companys. We should'nt have to compete within our own route structure.
We have to play ball with Mgt. because contract carriers are in our back yard ready to take over if we don't. If we did'nt have these s&*mbag companies to worry about we would'nt have had to give up one damm penny.
Surplus said, " MESA pilots are being boxed in as well. On one side AWA pilots, with the full support of ALPA, are trying to scope out the MESA pilots. On the other side there is Freedom, created as a direct result of ALPA's predatory scope policies and now being used against the MESA pilots.
GODBLESS AWA, I hope they get the opportunity to scope the h$ll out of 'em. If AWA Mgt. thinks they need an RJ on a route it should be flown with the pilots on the AWA sen. list. The contracting of flying is exactly why we are where we are. WO's need to be merged with Mainline and contracting needs to go away. Then maybe we can get on with making money the right way with a united employee group.
Here is the famous tag-team duo (China Clipper and Beantown) at it again. And still China Clipper is screaming about how the WO have accepted lower pay than Mesa. I would have hoped that you know better than that.
We didn't accept anything it was forced on us. And I'll tell you this one more time and hopefully it'll get through that thick head of yours. Your rates up to a Five Year Capt. are the only thing that are pennies higher. Infact a Three Year FO (which is the highest FO at PSA only cause he won't upgrade for whatever reason) makes $35 less a month based on a 75 hour month on rates alone. Once you add our per diem and work rules our same FO bypasses yours by quite a bit more. So please put that dog to sleep.
You also said," Furloughed twice, job eliminated once, had one carrier shut down(PAA) and don't suffer novice fools easily......."
I thought your daddy worked at PAA, now you did too. Or are you ref. the PAA that was born from Carnival Airlines and turned into an even worse company.
Do me a favor and leave the I did this and I did that attitude out. Nobody gives a rats A$$ what you or your family did.
Beantown said, "And 1900, when MGMT at ASA, ACA, Comair and Air Wisky go to there pilots and say "we can't compete against US Airways express because there costs are so much lower then ours, we need you to take a pay cut", these pilots are going to "dislike PDT, ALG and PSA to such an extreme it is like a cult religion." The WO's at US Airways may do more damage to the industry then anyone. How ironic isn't it. Maybe you shouldn't follow those who you think are in the wrong. -Bean"
Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. We are supposed to be in competition with these companys. We should'nt have to compete within our own route structure.
We have to play ball with Mgt. because contract carriers are in our back yard ready to take over if we don't. If we did'nt have these s&*mbag companies to worry about we would'nt have had to give up one damm penny.
Surplus said, " MESA pilots are being boxed in as well. On one side AWA pilots, with the full support of ALPA, are trying to scope out the MESA pilots. On the other side there is Freedom, created as a direct result of ALPA's predatory scope policies and now being used against the MESA pilots.
GODBLESS AWA, I hope they get the opportunity to scope the h$ll out of 'em. If AWA Mgt. thinks they need an RJ on a route it should be flown with the pilots on the AWA sen. list. The contracting of flying is exactly why we are where we are. WO's need to be merged with Mainline and contracting needs to go away. Then maybe we can get on with making money the right way with a united employee group.
BoredToDeath said:
Strange as it may seem to you I could agree with all of that. Unfortunately, there are two obstacles. One is the mainline pilot group that truly wants no part of the regional pilots. The other is the union, run by the same mainline pilots, which does not support integration and openly advocates and maintains a segregationist policy.
Things like Mid Atlantic Airlines and Jets for Jobs would never have come into existence if the union truly supported your point of view.
I don't want you to change your views. I just want you to recognize who is really doing what to whom.
When the union adopts a policy of transferring the regional jets to the mainline with their pilots , I would be able to support you fully. I don't see that happening in my lifetime, unless some force, external to the union, makes it happen.
Meanwhile, if you happen to be a regional pilot, you'd better cover your six. Your wing man is about to fire on you .... again.
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"Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. We are supposed to be in competition with these companys. We should'nt have to compete within our own route structure. "Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. "
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Dumb a*s, I was responding to this quote from b1900fo "you are a dead weight on the career expectations of other regionals "
The fact is Mesa's contract sucks BUT they are in section 6 and will SOON have a industry average or better contract. That will leave the WO's and there crap as contracts to bring down wages at ALL the regionals for the next 8 yrs!
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"We have to play ball with Mgt. because contract carriers are in our back yard ready to take over if we don't. If we didn't have these s&*mbag companies to worry about we would'nt have had to give up one damm penny."
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Wrong! Siegal said give in or be gone. He was using one WO against the others. This had nothing to do with Mesa or any other contract carrier. At the point you took the concessions (up til now for that matter) no contract carrier signed on to j4j. Why give in if Siegal has no one else to fly these additional jets (accept MDA) ??? The fact is PSA gave in and the rest had to follow or be gone. THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. Stop blaming them for your problems.
P.S I don't work for Mesa
"Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. We are supposed to be in competition with these companys. We should'nt have to compete within our own route structure. "Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. "
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Dumb a*s, I was responding to this quote from b1900fo "you are a dead weight on the career expectations of other regionals "
The fact is Mesa's contract sucks BUT they are in section 6 and will SOON have a industry average or better contract. That will leave the WO's and there crap as contracts to bring down wages at ALL the regionals for the next 8 yrs!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We have to play ball with Mgt. because contract carriers are in our back yard ready to take over if we don't. If we didn't have these s&*mbag companies to worry about we would'nt have had to give up one damm penny."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong! Siegal said give in or be gone. He was using one WO against the others. This had nothing to do with Mesa or any other contract carrier. At the point you took the concessions (up til now for that matter) no contract carrier signed on to j4j. Why give in if Siegal has no one else to fly these additional jets (accept MDA) ??? The fact is PSA gave in and the rest had to follow or be gone. THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. Stop blaming them for your problems.
P.S I don't work for Mesa
BoredToDeath
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 171
Surplus,
With Jets4Jobs your above statement is whats happening. (for WO only) If things were to go as planned meaning no affiliate carrier signs on, the WO would have been merged and stapled to the MDA list with 100% flow to ML if and when the time came. "Nearly" creating a Onelist. All that would have been left is to discontinue contracting once enough SJ were on line at the Merged WO and MDA. From this ML would never be able to hire from the outside again. Everyone would have to come through the WO then MDA.
I may be wrong but I look upon J4J as the flowthrough that ML should have set up years ago but did'nt want to. Now they realize they should have and come up with this to protect the jobs that would be outsourced anyway. In many respects you can't blame them, only their lack of vision.
The part that is truly the thorn is that ML also is going to allow scope relief to the contract carriers most likely without a J4Js deal and in doing so will enalbe Mgt to not have to place SJ at WO companies and will most likely also try to get out of establishing MDA for the 1300+ furloughed ML. And if this is allowed to take place you can look for more work to be contracted out in the futrue.
So now how am I supposed to support fellow ALPA pilots in their fight to make their contracts better when their companys assist our Mgt. in giving away ML and WO jobs.
Just because they may get a better contract than what they have now does'nt have anything to do with the agreement between their company and our Mgt. The "Fee" for Departure that they charge to U will not change, hence they will still be cheap labor for U, although it may cost JO alittle more, and a danger to my livilyhood(sp).
Your Thoughts?
BoredToDeath
Well-known member
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- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 171
Bean said,"**Dumb a*s, I was responding to this quote from b1900fo "you are a dead weight on the career expectations of other regionals "
The fact is Mesa's contract sucks BUT they are in section 6 and will SOON have a industry average or better contract. That will leave the WO's and there crap as contracts to bring down wages at ALL the regionals for the next 8 yrs! **"
Hey D*&khead, I know exactly what you were responding to. And your comparisons made absolutly no sence. The only wages that were brought down were the WO's because Mgt is forcing us to be in direct compettition with Mesa for the same flying. Don't belive me, ask our FA's who were told directly from Dave that he wants "Mesa" type wages from them or no deal!
If what you said is anywhere near true, Mgt for ASA, ACA, and AirWis would have tried to get Mesa standard contracts a long time ago. Why would they wait for the WOs to eats&*t! Pull your head out of your a$$!
And with freedom in the wings I would'nt count on Mesa getting a whole lot out of the new contract.
Bean said,"**Wrong! Siegal said give in or be gone. He was using one WO against the others. This had nothing to do with Mesa or any other contract carrier. At the point you took the concessions (up til now for that matter) no contract carrier signed on to j4j. Why give in if Siegal has no one else to fly these additional jets (accept MDA) ??? The fact is PSA gave in and the rest had to follow or be gone. THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. Stop blaming them for your problems. **"
How am I wrong? Give in or be gone is exactly right. If we were gone who do you think would be there to pick up the pieces? Thats right, THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. We had to give in or die a fast death as opposed to the slow death that we face now. I don't blame the contract carriers for everything, but thier pressence does not increase our chances of survival.
**P.S I don't work for Mesa**
I thought you worked for CCAir? And if you did are'nt they trying to get Mesa to acknowledge that the CCAir pilots are infact Mesa Pilots?
The fact is Mesa's contract sucks BUT they are in section 6 and will SOON have a industry average or better contract. That will leave the WO's and there crap as contracts to bring down wages at ALL the regionals for the next 8 yrs! **"
Hey D*&khead, I know exactly what you were responding to. And your comparisons made absolutly no sence. The only wages that were brought down were the WO's because Mgt is forcing us to be in direct compettition with Mesa for the same flying. Don't belive me, ask our FA's who were told directly from Dave that he wants "Mesa" type wages from them or no deal!
If what you said is anywhere near true, Mgt for ASA, ACA, and AirWis would have tried to get Mesa standard contracts a long time ago. Why would they wait for the WOs to eats&*t! Pull your head out of your a$$!
And with freedom in the wings I would'nt count on Mesa getting a whole lot out of the new contract.
Bean said,"**Wrong! Siegal said give in or be gone. He was using one WO against the others. This had nothing to do with Mesa or any other contract carrier. At the point you took the concessions (up til now for that matter) no contract carrier signed on to j4j. Why give in if Siegal has no one else to fly these additional jets (accept MDA) ??? The fact is PSA gave in and the rest had to follow or be gone. THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. Stop blaming them for your problems. **"
How am I wrong? Give in or be gone is exactly right. If we were gone who do you think would be there to pick up the pieces? Thats right, THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. We had to give in or die a fast death as opposed to the slow death that we face now. I don't blame the contract carriers for everything, but thier pressence does not increase our chances of survival.
**P.S I don't work for Mesa**
I thought you worked for CCAir? And if you did are'nt they trying to get Mesa to acknowledge that the CCAir pilots are infact Mesa Pilots?
Bean,
Just to expand on what the previous post stated: a future situation with AirWis, ACA, etc. would be vastly different in that their respective managements would be unable to threaten them with shutting down the operation if they did not match your wages/workrules. The WO's were in the unfortunate position of having to take 8% paycuts or be phased out completely and replaced by a slew of contract carriers. I hope you can appreciate why pilots who have made carreers at the WO's hold such resentment towards the contract carriers. Once freedom starts taking what you consider to be "your flying" then I think you'll understand where the Wo's are coming from.
For what it is worth I consider the WO's to be jointly responsible for the current situation because they did not have the foresight to fight for any meaningful scope clause in the previous contract. That would have prevented management from farming out more than a set portion of flying to the likes of Mesa.
Once again best of luck on getting a great contract. It would really improve the landscape of the regional industry. I hope you guys don't settle for something sub-standard in exchange for empty promises from JO.
Just to expand on what the previous post stated: a future situation with AirWis, ACA, etc. would be vastly different in that their respective managements would be unable to threaten them with shutting down the operation if they did not match your wages/workrules. The WO's were in the unfortunate position of having to take 8% paycuts or be phased out completely and replaced by a slew of contract carriers. I hope you can appreciate why pilots who have made carreers at the WO's hold such resentment towards the contract carriers. Once freedom starts taking what you consider to be "your flying" then I think you'll understand where the Wo's are coming from.
For what it is worth I consider the WO's to be jointly responsible for the current situation because they did not have the foresight to fight for any meaningful scope clause in the previous contract. That would have prevented management from farming out more than a set portion of flying to the likes of Mesa.
Once again best of luck on getting a great contract. It would really improve the landscape of the regional industry. I hope you guys don't settle for something sub-standard in exchange for empty promises from JO.
"For what it is worth I consider the WO's to be jointly responsible for the current situation because they did not have the foresight to fight for any meaningful scope clause in the previous contract"
Our scope was imbedded in our furlough protection we fought so hard for and now don't have.
Our scope was imbedded in our furlough protection we fought so hard for and now don't have.
Concierj
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2002
- Posts
- 33
Some observations....
Mesa (YV) is operating under their first ever ALPA contract which was acquired in 1996. All first contracts are bad. When the contract was introduced, (YV) was several different airlines with "separate" seniority lists owned and acquired by what is now known as the Mesa Air Group. (Mountain West Airlines, Liberty Express Airlines, Florida Gulf, Air Midwest, and Desert Sun Division.) Desert Sun was flying F-70s of which the pilots were "Company" boys. The ALPA contract combined seniority lists of all the carriers into "One List" and 2 operating certificates (Air Midwest and YV) The "One List" was enticing because it allowed pilots of nonjet airlines the opportunity to fly Desert Sun's and any additional acquired jets. This was during the beginning phase of the RJ introduction into the airline industry. Mesa's contract, at the time it was signed, was, for the most part, industry standard. The majority of YV's flying was 1900's in 1996. (See part 135 work rules) After the 121 transition, Mesa has significantly expanded its Jet operation, dwindled its 1900 and EMB-120's, and remained constant at the DHC-8 level. They are still operating under the 96 contract except for one 1 pay raise to industry standard in 00.
There will be no Jets 4 Jobs vote at Mesa any time soon. Mesa ALPA's major concern is scope and maintaining the integrity of "One List" . (IE no separate Freedom Airlines list) Until the Freedom flying is captured, and the CC Air pilots are integrated as per the 2000 seniority agreement between CCA and YV ALPA, J4J is not an option. JO is trying to make it one to bad face ALPA. YV has not acquired any additional "new" flying (minus Frontier)and will not while in negotiations. Freedom CRJ-700's are on a 1 for 1 swap with YV CRJ-200's. With no additional flying, furloughs are to be anticipated at YV to offset Freedoms growth until a new contract is reached. YV management has also implied that a YV strike will cripple U and force them into Chapter 7 resulting in a 60% loss of YV business.
Mesa's goals for the next contract are: to bring it up to and maintain industry standard with annual adjustments, scope, and quality of life issues.
JO has no intention of letting go fo his "Freedom" non-union airline. It's his baby and he has total control over it.
Sh$$ty time for all everywhere.
Mesa (YV) is operating under their first ever ALPA contract which was acquired in 1996. All first contracts are bad. When the contract was introduced, (YV) was several different airlines with "separate" seniority lists owned and acquired by what is now known as the Mesa Air Group. (Mountain West Airlines, Liberty Express Airlines, Florida Gulf, Air Midwest, and Desert Sun Division.) Desert Sun was flying F-70s of which the pilots were "Company" boys. The ALPA contract combined seniority lists of all the carriers into "One List" and 2 operating certificates (Air Midwest and YV) The "One List" was enticing because it allowed pilots of nonjet airlines the opportunity to fly Desert Sun's and any additional acquired jets. This was during the beginning phase of the RJ introduction into the airline industry. Mesa's contract, at the time it was signed, was, for the most part, industry standard. The majority of YV's flying was 1900's in 1996. (See part 135 work rules) After the 121 transition, Mesa has significantly expanded its Jet operation, dwindled its 1900 and EMB-120's, and remained constant at the DHC-8 level. They are still operating under the 96 contract except for one 1 pay raise to industry standard in 00.
There will be no Jets 4 Jobs vote at Mesa any time soon. Mesa ALPA's major concern is scope and maintaining the integrity of "One List" . (IE no separate Freedom Airlines list) Until the Freedom flying is captured, and the CC Air pilots are integrated as per the 2000 seniority agreement between CCA and YV ALPA, J4J is not an option. JO is trying to make it one to bad face ALPA. YV has not acquired any additional "new" flying (minus Frontier)and will not while in negotiations. Freedom CRJ-700's are on a 1 for 1 swap with YV CRJ-200's. With no additional flying, furloughs are to be anticipated at YV to offset Freedoms growth until a new contract is reached. YV management has also implied that a YV strike will cripple U and force them into Chapter 7 resulting in a 60% loss of YV business.
Mesa's goals for the next contract are: to bring it up to and maintain industry standard with annual adjustments, scope, and quality of life issues.
JO has no intention of letting go fo his "Freedom" non-union airline. It's his baby and he has total control over it.
Sh$$ty time for all everywhere.
BoeingBaller
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2002
- Posts
- 280
Wo, Mesa
Fact of the matter is all of this back and forth scew you crap will get niether side anywhere. What we need to do from here on out is just raise the bar at the regional level no matter who you work for. Not only with pay but contract perks as well. A lot of the reson that crap passed at the WO s was becuase there are a lot of senior guys that just did not want to rock the boat with the theat of liquidation so close to the end of the road for them. Which I thought sucks, but what can you do here we are now pick up the ball and run.
Fact of the matter is all of this back and forth scew you crap will get niether side anywhere. What we need to do from here on out is just raise the bar at the regional level no matter who you work for. Not only with pay but contract perks as well. A lot of the reson that crap passed at the WO s was becuase there are a lot of senior guys that just did not want to rock the boat with the theat of liquidation so close to the end of the road for them. Which I thought sucks, but what can you do here we are now pick up the ball and run.
got_jumpseat?
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Freedom Fighters
What I got in the last two days from direct face to face conversations with a couple of YV Mesa Freedom Fighters is this.. Single Carrier status to be ruled by the NMB within a week. The Case for Freedumb is STRONGER than the case for CC Air and the NMB just turned down Mesa's request for appeal on the previous CC Air ruling. (what, did anybody think this wouldn't happen?)
Once we have the single carrier status, this prevents Freedumb from running off and starting their own union or some horseshpit that would legally let them stay seperate. Single carrier forces freedum to be represented by ALPA. One seniority list and one contract will come through continued negotiations that will be wrapping up soon. I was told less than 6 months. But I am still skeptical although leaning to the hopeful side.
As long as contract negotiations dont break down, and as long as the Mesa pilots ratify, and ALPA signs the new contract with 700/900 pay rates (yes thats more than a couple of if comes) we wont be worrying about furloughs at Mesa. I also have spoken with Orenstien who told me to my face he WILL give us our contract just to prove a point, because he is sure ALPA will not sign it if it includes CRJ 900 flying. He says when ALPA refuses to sign our new contract everybody will know he is not full of $hit.
Right.
Meanwhile the flogging of freedscum continues. I have heard actual profanity on PHX ground this past week. I was fairly certain it came from a HP crew on same freq. The blocking and name calling is getting intense. I cant see how anybody would stay in a freedong cockprickpit for too long. Personally I think it is a safety issue to block up frequencies. I draw the line at just giving them the finger and fist treatment.
I got to ride on freedumb this week PHX-LAX while going home and made sure to give the two manly FA's and both pilots a heavy helping of grade A $hit. I thanked the pilots for keeping my seat warm and made sure they knew I thought they were real fricking heros. They were actually HAPPY I stopped in to say hi. (Thank you sir may I have another??) Most people just ignore them. So, make a freedom pilots day it what I say. Thank one for being such a hero and thank the hunky coksugging FA too.
What I got in the last two days from direct face to face conversations with a couple of YV Mesa Freedom Fighters is this.. Single Carrier status to be ruled by the NMB within a week. The Case for Freedumb is STRONGER than the case for CC Air and the NMB just turned down Mesa's request for appeal on the previous CC Air ruling. (what, did anybody think this wouldn't happen?)
Once we have the single carrier status, this prevents Freedumb from running off and starting their own union or some horseshpit that would legally let them stay seperate. Single carrier forces freedum to be represented by ALPA. One seniority list and one contract will come through continued negotiations that will be wrapping up soon. I was told less than 6 months. But I am still skeptical although leaning to the hopeful side.
As long as contract negotiations dont break down, and as long as the Mesa pilots ratify, and ALPA signs the new contract with 700/900 pay rates (yes thats more than a couple of if comes) we wont be worrying about furloughs at Mesa. I also have spoken with Orenstien who told me to my face he WILL give us our contract just to prove a point, because he is sure ALPA will not sign it if it includes CRJ 900 flying. He says when ALPA refuses to sign our new contract everybody will know he is not full of $hit.
Right.
Meanwhile the flogging of freedscum continues. I have heard actual profanity on PHX ground this past week. I was fairly certain it came from a HP crew on same freq. The blocking and name calling is getting intense. I cant see how anybody would stay in a freedong cockprickpit for too long. Personally I think it is a safety issue to block up frequencies. I draw the line at just giving them the finger and fist treatment.
I got to ride on freedumb this week PHX-LAX while going home and made sure to give the two manly FA's and both pilots a heavy helping of grade A $hit. I thanked the pilots for keeping my seat warm and made sure they knew I thought they were real fricking heros. They were actually HAPPY I stopped in to say hi. (Thank you sir may I have another??) Most people just ignore them. So, make a freedom pilots day it what I say. Thank one for being such a hero and thank the hunky coksugging FA too.
Re: Freedom Fighters
You make some interesting points that I think have a lot of validity. I believe you will get the single carrier status that is being sought after. When you do, Freedom will be represented by the union (ALPA).
This is exactly why I think that your so-called "flogging of Freedom pilots" was and is a huge mistake. By going to Freedom voluntarily, Mesa pilots could have helped to facilitate the single carrier ruling by the NMB. If that didn't work you could have easily organized Freedom and joined the union anyway. At the same time, you could have avoided ailienation of a group of people, all of whom will ultimately wind up within your ranks.
It is not wrong for you to object to the creation of an alter ego airline on your property. However, the strategy used to fight it is highly questionable and, IMO, ill advised.
It is left to be seen what ALPA will do if your new contract includes the CL-700 and 900. What happens at America West, where ALPA is currently trying to prevent Mesa from flying this equipment will be a factor. Also, the new strategy of ALPA at USAirways will be another major factor. I'm sure you know that ALPA is currently attempting to modify the restructuring agreement in a way that would permit the aircraft that ALPA now defines as "large small jets" to be flown at the "contract carriers".
However, you can, IMO, expect this to come with a requirement that the "large small jets" are to be flown by USAirways pilots. In other words, they will attempt to force Jets for Jobs down your throats once more. You are being used as pawns, both by the Company and the union.
If that move is successful, Woerth will sign your contract. There is no reason for him NOT to do that as long as those aircraft are flown by "mainline pilots". I must ask you, what is the difference if the 70 & 90 seaters are not flown by Freedom pilots, but instead they are flown by U pilots? How many of them will Mesa pilots get to fly? Don't be surprised if you see the America West pilots attempt a similar maneuver/strategy.
Hopefully you (Mesa pilots) will NOT agree to abrogate your seniority in favor of pilots from another airline. If you agree to Jets for Jobs, that's exactly what you'll be doing.
got_jumpseat? said:
You make some interesting points that I think have a lot of validity. I believe you will get the single carrier status that is being sought after. When you do, Freedom will be represented by the union (ALPA).
This is exactly why I think that your so-called "flogging of Freedom pilots" was and is a huge mistake. By going to Freedom voluntarily, Mesa pilots could have helped to facilitate the single carrier ruling by the NMB. If that didn't work you could have easily organized Freedom and joined the union anyway. At the same time, you could have avoided ailienation of a group of people, all of whom will ultimately wind up within your ranks.
It is not wrong for you to object to the creation of an alter ego airline on your property. However, the strategy used to fight it is highly questionable and, IMO, ill advised.
It is left to be seen what ALPA will do if your new contract includes the CL-700 and 900. What happens at America West, where ALPA is currently trying to prevent Mesa from flying this equipment will be a factor. Also, the new strategy of ALPA at USAirways will be another major factor. I'm sure you know that ALPA is currently attempting to modify the restructuring agreement in a way that would permit the aircraft that ALPA now defines as "large small jets" to be flown at the "contract carriers".
However, you can, IMO, expect this to come with a requirement that the "large small jets" are to be flown by USAirways pilots. In other words, they will attempt to force Jets for Jobs down your throats once more. You are being used as pawns, both by the Company and the union.
If that move is successful, Woerth will sign your contract. There is no reason for him NOT to do that as long as those aircraft are flown by "mainline pilots". I must ask you, what is the difference if the 70 & 90 seaters are not flown by Freedom pilots, but instead they are flown by U pilots? How many of them will Mesa pilots get to fly? Don't be surprised if you see the America West pilots attempt a similar maneuver/strategy.
Hopefully you (Mesa pilots) will NOT agree to abrogate your seniority in favor of pilots from another airline. If you agree to Jets for Jobs, that's exactly what you'll be doing.
Freight Dog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,232
Surplus,
We've had a couple of discussions before, and I am curious... what exactly is wrong with AWA pilots blocking 90 seat RJ's flown under *THEIR* code in *THEIR* colors at CONTRACT carriers?
I hear you Comair boys aren't too happy about Chautauqua taking your MCO base and doing DCI flying.
You will claim that Comair is still expanding... GREAT.
You will also claim that you went on strike to get parity in pay.. GREAT, I applaud you for that.
My question is... when your flying slowly starts getting chipped away by *contract* carriers flying your old routes at slave-labor cost, are you not gonna try to prevent it especially given the fact that you've walked the line for 89 days trying to get rid of the slave labor wages at your airline?
Looking forward to your response...
We've had a couple of discussions before, and I am curious... what exactly is wrong with AWA pilots blocking 90 seat RJ's flown under *THEIR* code in *THEIR* colors at CONTRACT carriers?
I hear you Comair boys aren't too happy about Chautauqua taking your MCO base and doing DCI flying.
You will claim that Comair is still expanding... GREAT.
You will also claim that you went on strike to get parity in pay.. GREAT, I applaud you for that.
My question is... when your flying slowly starts getting chipped away by *contract* carriers flying your old routes at slave-labor cost, are you not gonna try to prevent it especially given the fact that you've walked the line for 89 days trying to get rid of the slave labor wages at your airline?
Looking forward to your response...
got_jumpseat?
NO BLO JETS
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Posts
- 139
Re: Re: Freedom Fighters
You made some timely and interesting points yourself, many of which I will bring up in other discussions and look into deeper. I can tell you this much, J4J while many things it does not abrogate Mesa pilots seniority numbers. I am yet decided on J4J. I do know one fact, J4J is the brainchild of none other than Andy Hughes, MEC chairman @ Mesa Airlines. This I know, it was designed as a bargaining tool for Mesa pilots to get scope, in exchange for USAir furloughed pilots to get back in the air, and Mesa Air Group to get some multi millions of additional revenue per year. At least this is how it being sold to us. We do not lose seniority with this deal, these USAir pilots go to the bottom of our seniority list and may only fly in the US Air system in the Jets allocated them only ABOVE the current flying now happening. I think we have 40 jets in the U system now. The way J4J is written up we will give one job to a USAir pilot for every NEW Mesa pilot job created in THEIR system only, and only in any ADDITIONAL flying. The 40 jets we now fly for them are not included, neither are the HPX or F9X jets or any of our turboprop flying. I am not defending it, just defining it. Like I said I am yet undecided on J4J. I will look into your concerns. I saw a press release yesterday that USAir suddenly wants some of our 70 seaters flown in their system. Us/them not sure really. I dont know what thats all about but this gets more interesting by the minute.
surplus1 said:
You made some timely and interesting points yourself, many of which I will bring up in other discussions and look into deeper. I can tell you this much, J4J while many things it does not abrogate Mesa pilots seniority numbers. I am yet decided on J4J. I do know one fact, J4J is the brainchild of none other than Andy Hughes, MEC chairman @ Mesa Airlines. This I know, it was designed as a bargaining tool for Mesa pilots to get scope, in exchange for USAir furloughed pilots to get back in the air, and Mesa Air Group to get some multi millions of additional revenue per year. At least this is how it being sold to us. We do not lose seniority with this deal, these USAir pilots go to the bottom of our seniority list and may only fly in the US Air system in the Jets allocated them only ABOVE the current flying now happening. I think we have 40 jets in the U system now. The way J4J is written up we will give one job to a USAir pilot for every NEW Mesa pilot job created in THEIR system only, and only in any ADDITIONAL flying. The 40 jets we now fly for them are not included, neither are the HPX or F9X jets or any of our turboprop flying. I am not defending it, just defining it. Like I said I am yet undecided on J4J. I will look into your concerns. I saw a press release yesterday that USAir suddenly wants some of our 70 seaters flown in their system. Us/them not sure really. I dont know what thats all about but this gets more interesting by the minute.
got_jumpseat?
NO BLO JETS
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- Sep 19, 2002
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\Freight Dog said:
Is this what Island Air pilots do on rainy days in Hawaii? Check threads on Mesa Airlines contract negotiations? Doesn't Island Air give you enough flying or are the half days island hopping in 78 degree winter weather driving you all futless yet?
Nah brah I am just poking fun. I'm jealous, I wish I was in your seat. I should have gone last year when they called me. I'd be a DHC8 CA in Hawaii now. Looks like the waiting list at AQ is getting out of hand. I hear 1300 pilots updating their resumes regularly and the "short stack" in Peter Clark's office is down to just 50 with only 35 to be hired this year. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.
I am glad you are taking interest in Mesa and Freedom, what happens to us has ramifications to ALL PILOTS. Not just Mesa, or our codeshares. Dont worry, like I said before the buck stops here. We will not let this one get by us. If Freedom gets away with this what's to stop ANY OTHER airline from trying the same crap.
got_jumpseat?
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