To all mesa pilots

[ChinaClipper]

No lust here for J4J....

Bottom line is that we are in Section 6 (fo 1900FO that means we are negotiating a new contract) JO appears to have pulled out all the stops to keep ANY real improvements from happening here. He is pathological in his greed and contempt for working folks. I have seen some of the worst in airline management and all the drama that surrounds it, but never have I seen such a concerted effort to screw people who will not bend to one individuals (JO's) twisted will. I am warning everyone here that if he succeeds in breaking us, others close to his way of thinking will take it as open season on ALPA or any other union operation.
........And 1900DFO, you are still clueless, I could give a rats a$$ about the "mesa" name and precious few line pilots could as well.. I do care that the people who have been told to " hold on, a better tomorrow is around the corner" are getting screwed. As for your drivel on "accepting substandards to fly jets" is just another confirming example of how clueless about these things you really are. . Adjustments to pay rates and work rules are done in Section 6, junior, but seasoned old veteren like yourself probably already knows that. I have been in 4 unions; a ramper, a fueler, I dumped lavs, load planner and A&P'd for 2 majors. Furloughed twice, job eliminated once, had one carrier shut down(PAA) and don't suffer novice fools easily.......

 

[Brother Francis]

CHQ management floated the idea to the CHQ pilots of picking up Comair flying during their strike. I don't think they will make that mistake again. CHQ has not and will not fly struck work; then, now, or ever.

The insinuation is offensive.

 

[Beantown]

A different way to look at this is if Mesa or another contract carrier doesn't help U get some RJ's NOW, U might not make it and you all will be in the street. U needs to get the revenue up now to have any chance at getting the Gov. loan and without that loan, it's over. Mesa has the Rj's and can have them running for U in a matter of weeks. This might be a short term hit for the WO's but it may be a hit that has to happen for there to be any chance at a future. For both U and the WO's. Just something to think about. -Bean

 

[V1 cuts R fun]

pretty heated battle here on this topic. Everyone needs to relax.

 

[jetdriven]

JO's mantra is "Low wages and terrible work rules makes us more profitable which guarantees job security.......for someone else."

In this case Freedom.

Real cool to see 11 year 1900D captains I fly with making 36.00$ per hour (plus 1$ per diem) while they hire guys off the street to make 55.00.

The mesa pilot group is not stupid, as 96% of them figured out Freedom was immoral and just plain wrong and held the line..But short of Hitler or Lorenzo there is no one else that is more calculating and hell-bent on destruction than JO. I just hope we can bring a "job action" against him before Freedom takes off and god help us then.

 

[meanstreak]

So, does anyone know when the Mesa pilots will vote for this J4J deal.

 

[B1900DFO]

ChinaClipper,

Give me a break. I imagine you had to walk 5 miles through a foot of snow in hand me down sandals just to go dump those lavs. I'm sure it gave you a real solid perspective on the airline industry. I am sure years of pumping $hit didn't help that hot temper any.

I am fully aware that you are in Section 6 negotiations and I wish you guys all the best for you are a dead weight on the career expectations of other regionals most notably Pdt, Alg, and Psa. When Siegal came to us and said match Mesa's cost structure or be shut down quite a few WO pilots wished you guys had never agreed to an industry bottom contract.

On 8/27 in reference to Freedom's proposed payrates you said "please don't do it for so little, giving it away now will take yeaaars to recoup." Well I can point you to about 800 pdt and alg pilots who feel like that is exactly what you guys (mesa) did with your first contract. Many felt like you set the bar so low that we have had to fight it ever since. I don't have much invested in the wo so I won't be too distraught when we are shut down but I can point you to many guys about to lose 15+ years of seniority that dislike mesa to such an extreme it is like a cult religion. I would also like to re-iterate I hope you guys get an industry leading contract. It would help us all.

 

[Beantown]

"When Siegal came to us and said match Mesa's cost structure or be shut down quite a few WO pilots wished you guys had never agreed to an industry bottom contract. "
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The sad thing is that you guys feel this way yet you sold out and took Siegal's crap ass contract and soon you will be the lowest paid Jet pilots bringing down the industry. Let's face it, you guys are no better then the Mesa pilots you hate so much! -Bean

 

[surplus1]

Gentlemen,

You are all wasting time and energy when regional pilots fight with other regional pilots. That is exactly what our "enemies" want.

Notice that the word "enemies" is plural. That's not a mistake, it is intentional. There are two adversaries of regional pilots in this battle. One of them is management and the other, regretably, is the ALPA. You are playing into the hands of both of them.

There is a huge conflict of interest within the union and the leaders of the union have chosen sides. They did NOT choose regional pilots.

Jets for Jobs is a bad policy and it is also a policy that is directly opposed to the best interests of regional pilots. ALL of us! It should be rejected by all regional pilots!

The ALG/PDT and PSA pilots were boxed in and literally forced to sign on to this disgusting policy. Management didn't do that alone, ALPA helped the mainline pilots (and therefore management) to do this. They did not have to, they wanted to. It should be obvious to all of us whose interests they were protecting and at whose expense. J4J is an ALPA idea, not a management idea. We should start by recognizing it for what it is and stop the pretense.

MESA pilots are being boxed in as well. On one side AWA pilots, with the full support of ALPA, are trying to scope out the MESA pilots. On the other side there is Freedom, created as a direct result of ALPA's predatory scope policies and now being used against the MESA pilots.

The MESA pilots have NO logical reason to vote for J4J. USAir Group needs those jets and does not care who flys them. MESA pilots have no reason to give half the seats to US Airways pilots, just because ALPA would like them to do that. If USAir Group can come up with the money to buy them, they can put them at Mid Atlantic (ALPA's created equivalent of Freedom) and let the USAirways pilots fly them there. They are not doing that right now because they can't.

They can also place those 20 jets at MESA or some other contract carrier without J4J. If ALL regional pilots refuse to accept J4J (which I believe they should), management will find a way to operate those jets at MESA without J4J. Do not let ALPA sucker you into believing that there is "no other way". ALPA is merely trying to protect the interest of mainline pilots at the expense of regional pilots. Management doesn't care WHO flies those planes, they only care about the money. J4J is not a management scheme, it is an ALPA scheme to transfer regional flying to the mainline.

CCAir is out of business. The CCAir pilots have numbers on the MESA seniority list. (Yes, I know that JO hasn't accepted that yet). If anybody not at MESA today gets the "extra jobs" it should be the CCAir pilots, NOT the mainline pilots.

Please don't mistake what I'm trying to say. I'm not against mainline pilots, I just don't think the union should be in the business of forcing regional pilots to give up their seniority and their contracts to accomodate furloughed mainline pilots. That is dead wrong and it is exactly what the union has done.

The union must be forced to act fairly and protect the rights of regional pilots, just as it protects the rights of mainline pilots. Mainline pilots have NO RIGHT to the jobs of regional pilots. A vote in favor of J4J would give them such rights. That is wrong and it should NOT happen.

Unfortunately, a lot of regional pilot leaders seem to continue to believe that the powers that be in our union are defending them even though the evidence is very heavy that isn't so. Until regional pilots stand up together and actively defend their rights, they will lose those rights to the people that want to take them away.

Giving in to J4J will not, IMO, help the MESA pilots. Saying NO to J4J will not hurt the MESA pilots either. However a NO vote will show that we regional pilots won't stand for any more of this one-sided union. As long as we let the union continue to favor one group of its members at the expense of the other, they will continue to do that.

We have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

[Beantown]

And 1900, when MGMT at ASA, ACA, Comair and Air Wisky go to there pilots and say "we can't compete against US Airways express because there costs are so much lower then ours, we need you to take a pay cut", these pilots are going to "dislike PDT, ALG and PSA to such an extreme it is like a cult religion." The WO's at US Airways may do more damage to the industry then anyone. How ironic isn't it. Maybe you shouldn't follow those who you think are in the wrong. -Bean

 

[BoredToDeath]

Oh boy,

Here is the famous tag-team duo (China Clipper and Beantown) at it again. And still China Clipper is screaming about how the WO have accepted lower pay than Mesa. I would have hoped that you know better than that.

We didn't accept anything it was forced on us. And I'll tell you this one more time and hopefully it'll get through that thick head of yours. Your rates up to a Five Year Capt. are the only thing that are pennies higher. Infact a Three Year FO (which is the highest FO at PSA only cause he won't upgrade for whatever reason) makes $35 less a month based on a 75 hour month on rates alone. Once you add our per diem and work rules our same FO bypasses yours by quite a bit more. So please put that dog to sleep.

You also said," Furloughed twice, job eliminated once, had one carrier shut down(PAA) and don't suffer novice fools easily......."

I thought your daddy worked at PAA, now you did too. Or are you ref. the PAA that was born from Carnival Airlines and turned into an even worse company.

Do me a favor and leave the I did this and I did that attitude out. Nobody gives a rats A$$ what you or your family did.

Beantown said, "And 1900, when MGMT at ASA, ACA, Comair and Air Wisky go to there pilots and say "we can't compete against US Airways express because there costs are so much lower then ours, we need you to take a pay cut", these pilots are going to "dislike PDT, ALG and PSA to such an extreme it is like a cult religion." The WO's at US Airways may do more damage to the industry then anyone. How ironic isn't it. Maybe you shouldn't follow those who you think are in the wrong. -Bean"

Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. We are supposed to be in competition with these companys. We should'nt have to compete within our own route structure.

We have to play ball with Mgt. because contract carriers are in our back yard ready to take over if we don't. If we did'nt have these s&*mbag companies to worry about we would'nt have had to give up one damm penny.

Surplus said, " MESA pilots are being boxed in as well. On one side AWA pilots, with the full support of ALPA, are trying to scope out the MESA pilots. On the other side there is Freedom, created as a direct result of ALPA's predatory scope policies and now being used against the MESA pilots.

GODBLESS AWA, I hope they get the opportunity to scope the h$ll out of 'em. If AWA Mgt. thinks they need an RJ on a route it should be flown with the pilots on the AWA sen. list. The contracting of flying is exactly why we are where we are. WO's need to be merged with Mainline and contracting needs to go away. Then maybe we can get on with making money the right way with a united employee group.

 

[surplus1]

GODBLESS AWA, I hope they get the opportunity to scope the h$ll out of 'em. If AWA Mgt. thinks they need an RJ on a route it should be flown with the pilots on the AWA sen. list. The contracting of flying is exactly why we are where we are. WO's need to be merged with Mainline and contracting needs to go away. Then maybe we can get on with making money the right way with a united employee group.

Strange as it may seem to you I could agree with all of that. Unfortunately, there are two obstacles. One is the mainline pilot group that truly wants no part of the regional pilots. The other is the union, run by the same mainline pilots, which does not support integration and openly advocates and maintains a segregationist policy.

Things like Mid Atlantic Airlines and Jets for Jobs would never have come into existence if the union truly supported your point of view.

I don't want you to change your views. I just want you to recognize who is really doing what to whom.

When the union adopts a policy of transferring the regional jets to the mainline with their pilots , I would be able to support you fully. I don't see that happening in my lifetime, unless some force, external to the union, makes it happen.

Meanwhile, if you happen to be a regional pilot, you'd better cover your six. Your wing man is about to fire on you .... again.

 

[Beantown]

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"Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. We are supposed to be in competition with these companys. We should'nt have to compete within our own route structure. "Untill the day when ACA, ASA, and AirWis are US Airways Express carriers what one or the other makes is mute point. Your statement here holds no water. "
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Dumb a*s, I was responding to this quote from b1900fo "you are a dead weight on the career expectations of other regionals "

The fact is Mesa's contract sucks BUT they are in section 6 and will SOON have a industry average or better contract. That will leave the WO's and there crap as contracts to bring down wages at ALL the regionals for the next 8 yrs!
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"We have to play ball with Mgt. because contract carriers are in our back yard ready to take over if we don't. If we didn't have these s&*mbag companies to worry about we would'nt have had to give up one damm penny."
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Wrong! Siegal said give in or be gone. He was using one WO against the others. This had nothing to do with Mesa or any other contract carrier. At the point you took the concessions (up til now for that matter) no contract carrier signed on to j4j. Why give in if Siegal has no one else to fly these additional jets (accept MDA) ??? The fact is PSA gave in and the rest had to follow or be gone. THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. Stop blaming them for your problems.

P.S I don't work for Mesa

 

[BoredToDeath]

When the union adopts a policy of transferring the regional jets to the mainline with their pilots , I would be able to support you fully. I don't see that happening in my lifetime, unless some force, external to the union, makes it happen

Surplus,

With Jets4Jobs your above statement is whats happening. (for WO only) If things were to go as planned meaning no affiliate carrier signs on, the WO would have been merged and stapled to the MDA list with 100% flow to ML if and when the time came. "Nearly" creating a Onelist. All that would have been left is to discontinue contracting once enough SJ were on line at the Merged WO and MDA. From this ML would never be able to hire from the outside again. Everyone would have to come through the WO then MDA.

I may be wrong but I look upon J4J as the flowthrough that ML should have set up years ago but did'nt want to. Now they realize they should have and come up with this to protect the jobs that would be outsourced anyway. In many respects you can't blame them, only their lack of vision.

The part that is truly the thorn is that ML also is going to allow scope relief to the contract carriers most likely without a J4Js deal and in doing so will enalbe Mgt to not have to place SJ at WO companies and will most likely also try to get out of establishing MDA for the 1300+ furloughed ML. And if this is allowed to take place you can look for more work to be contracted out in the futrue.

So now how am I supposed to support fellow ALPA pilots in their fight to make their contracts better when their companys assist our Mgt. in giving away ML and WO jobs.

Just because they may get a better contract than what they have now does'nt have anything to do with the agreement between their company and our Mgt. The "Fee" for Departure that they charge to U will not change, hence they will still be cheap labor for U, although it may cost JO alittle more, and a danger to my livilyhood(sp).

Your Thoughts?

 

[BoredToDeath]

Bean said,"**Dumb a*s, I was responding to this quote from b1900fo "you are a dead weight on the career expectations of other regionals "

The fact is Mesa's contract sucks BUT they are in section 6 and will SOON have a industry average or better contract. That will leave the WO's and there crap as contracts to bring down wages at ALL the regionals for the next 8 yrs! **"

Hey D*&khead, I know exactly what you were responding to. And your comparisons made absolutly no sence. The only wages that were brought down were the WO's because Mgt is forcing us to be in direct compettition with Mesa for the same flying. Don't belive me, ask our FA's who were told directly from Dave that he wants "Mesa" type wages from them or no deal!

If what you said is anywhere near true, Mgt for ASA, ACA, and AirWis would have tried to get Mesa standard contracts a long time ago. Why would they wait for the WOs to eats&*t! Pull your head out of your a$$!

And with freedom in the wings I would'nt count on Mesa getting a whole lot out of the new contract.

Bean said,"**Wrong! Siegal said give in or be gone. He was using one WO against the others. This had nothing to do with Mesa or any other contract carrier. At the point you took the concessions (up til now for that matter) no contract carrier signed on to j4j. Why give in if Siegal has no one else to fly these additional jets (accept MDA) ??? The fact is PSA gave in and the rest had to follow or be gone. THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. Stop blaming them for your problems. **"

How am I wrong? Give in or be gone is exactly right. If we were gone who do you think would be there to pick up the pieces? Thats right, THE CONTRACT CARRIERS. We had to give in or die a fast death as opposed to the slow death that we face now. I don't blame the contract carriers for everything, but thier pressence does not increase our chances of survival.

**P.S I don't work for Mesa**

I thought you worked for CCAir? And if you did are'nt they trying to get Mesa to acknowledge that the CCAir pilots are infact Mesa Pilots?