To all mesa pilots

[B1900DFO]

Bean,
Just to expand on what the previous post stated: a future situation with AirWis, ACA, etc. would be vastly different in that their respective managements would be unable to threaten them with shutting down the operation if they did not match your wages/workrules. The WO's were in the unfortunate position of having to take 8% paycuts or be phased out completely and replaced by a slew of contract carriers. I hope you can appreciate why pilots who have made carreers at the WO's hold such resentment towards the contract carriers. Once freedom starts taking what you consider to be "your flying" then I think you'll understand where the Wo's are coming from.

For what it is worth I consider the WO's to be jointly responsible for the current situation because they did not have the foresight to fight for any meaningful scope clause in the previous contract. That would have prevented management from farming out more than a set portion of flying to the likes of Mesa.

Once again best of luck on getting a great contract. It would really improve the landscape of the regional industry. I hope you guys don't settle for something sub-standard in exchange for empty promises from JO.

 

[LearLove]

"For what it is worth I consider the WO's to be jointly responsible for the current situation because they did not have the foresight to fight for any meaningful scope clause in the previous contract"

Our scope was imbedded in our furlough protection we fought so hard for and now don't have.

 

[Concierj]

Some observations....

Mesa (YV) is operating under their first ever ALPA contract which was acquired in 1996. All first contracts are bad. When the contract was introduced, (YV) was several different airlines with "separate" seniority lists owned and acquired by what is now known as the Mesa Air Group. (Mountain West Airlines, Liberty Express Airlines, Florida Gulf, Air Midwest, and Desert Sun Division.) Desert Sun was flying F-70s of which the pilots were "Company" boys. The ALPA contract combined seniority lists of all the carriers into "One List" and 2 operating certificates (Air Midwest and YV) The "One List" was enticing because it allowed pilots of nonjet airlines the opportunity to fly Desert Sun's and any additional acquired jets. This was during the beginning phase of the RJ introduction into the airline industry. Mesa's contract, at the time it was signed, was, for the most part, industry standard. The majority of YV's flying was 1900's in 1996. (See part 135 work rules) After the 121 transition, Mesa has significantly expanded its Jet operation, dwindled its 1900 and EMB-120's, and remained constant at the DHC-8 level. They are still operating under the 96 contract except for one 1 pay raise to industry standard in 00.

There will be no Jets 4 Jobs vote at Mesa any time soon. Mesa ALPA's major concern is scope and maintaining the integrity of "One List" . (IE no separate Freedom Airlines list) Until the Freedom flying is captured, and the CC Air pilots are integrated as per the 2000 seniority agreement between CCA and YV ALPA, J4J is not an option. JO is trying to make it one to bad face ALPA. YV has not acquired any additional "new" flying (minus Frontier)and will not while in negotiations. Freedom CRJ-700's are on a 1 for 1 swap with YV CRJ-200's. With no additional flying, furloughs are to be anticipated at YV to offset Freedoms growth until a new contract is reached. YV management has also implied that a YV strike will cripple U and force them into Chapter 7 resulting in a 60% loss of YV business.

Mesa's goals for the next contract are: to bring it up to and maintain industry standard with annual adjustments, scope, and quality of life issues.

JO has no intention of letting go fo his "Freedom" non-union airline. It's his baby and he has total control over it.

Sh$$ty time for all everywhere.

 

[BoeingBaller]

Wo, Mesa

Fact of the matter is all of this back and forth scew you crap will get niether side anywhere. What we need to do from here on out is just raise the bar at the regional level no matter who you work for. Not only with pay but contract perks as well. A lot of the reson that crap passed at the WO s was becuase there are a lot of senior guys that just did not want to rock the boat with the theat of liquidation so close to the end of the road for them. Which I thought sucks, but what can you do here we are now pick up the ball and run.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Freedom Fighters

What I got in the last two days from direct face to face conversations with a couple of YV Mesa Freedom Fighters is this.. Single Carrier status to be ruled by the NMB within a week. The Case for Freedumb is STRONGER than the case for CC Air and the NMB just turned down Mesa's request for appeal on the previous CC Air ruling. (what, did anybody think this wouldn't happen?)

Once we have the single carrier status, this prevents Freedumb from running off and starting their own union or some horseshpit that would legally let them stay seperate. Single carrier forces freedum to be represented by ALPA. One seniority list and one contract will come through continued negotiations that will be wrapping up soon. I was told less than 6 months. But I am still skeptical although leaning to the hopeful side.

As long as contract negotiations dont break down, and as long as the Mesa pilots ratify, and ALPA signs the new contract with 700/900 pay rates (yes thats more than a couple of if comes) we wont be worrying about furloughs at Mesa. I also have spoken with Orenstien who told me to my face he WILL give us our contract just to prove a point, because he is sure ALPA will not sign it if it includes CRJ 900 flying. He says when ALPA refuses to sign our new contract everybody will know he is not full of $hit.

Right.

Meanwhile the flogging of freedscum continues. I have heard actual profanity on PHX ground this past week. I was fairly certain it came from a HP crew on same freq. The blocking and name calling is getting intense. I cant see how anybody would stay in a freedong cockprickpit for too long. Personally I think it is a safety issue to block up frequencies. I draw the line at just giving them the finger and fist treatment.

I got to ride on freedumb this week PHX-LAX while going home and made sure to give the two manly FA's and both pilots a heavy helping of grade A $hit. I thanked the pilots for keeping my seat warm and made sure they knew I thought they were real fricking heros. They were actually HAPPY I stopped in to say hi. (Thank you sir may I have another??) Most people just ignore them. So, make a freedom pilots day it what I say. Thank one for being such a hero and thank the hunky coksugging FA too.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Freedom Fighters

What I got in the last two days from direct face to face conversations with a couple of YV Mesa Freedom Fighters is this.. Single Carrier status to be ruled by the NMB within a week. The Case for Freedumb is STRONGER than the case for CC Air and the NMB just turned down Mesa's request for appeal on the previous CC Air ruling. (what, did anybody think this wouldn't happen?)

Once we have the single carrier status, this prevents Freedumb from running off and starting their own union or some horseshpit that would legally let them stay seperate. Single carrier forces freedum to be represented by ALPA. One seniority list and one contract will come through continued negotiations that will be wrapping up soon. I was told less than 6 months. But I am still skeptical although leaning to the hopeful side.

You make some interesting points that I think have a lot of validity. I believe you will get the single carrier status that is being sought after. When you do, Freedom will be represented by the union (ALPA).

This is exactly why I think that your so-called "flogging of Freedom pilots" was and is a huge mistake. By going to Freedom voluntarily, Mesa pilots could have helped to facilitate the single carrier ruling by the NMB. If that didn't work you could have easily organized Freedom and joined the union anyway. At the same time, you could have avoided ailienation of a group of people, all of whom will ultimately wind up within your ranks.

It is not wrong for you to object to the creation of an alter ego airline on your property. However, the strategy used to fight it is highly questionable and, IMO, ill advised.

As long as contract negotiations dont break down, and as long as the Mesa pilots ratify, and ALPA signs the new contract with 700/900 pay rates (yes thats more than a couple of if comes) we wont be worrying about furloughs at Mesa. I also have spoken with Orenstien who told me to my face he WILL give us our contract just to prove a point, because he is sure ALPA will not sign it if it includes CRJ 900 flying. He says when ALPA refuses to sign our new contract everybody will know he is not full of $hit.

It is left to be seen what ALPA will do if your new contract includes the CL-700 and 900. What happens at America West, where ALPA is currently trying to prevent Mesa from flying this equipment will be a factor. Also, the new strategy of ALPA at USAirways will be another major factor. I'm sure you know that ALPA is currently attempting to modify the restructuring agreement in a way that would permit the aircraft that ALPA now defines as "large small jets" to be flown at the "contract carriers".

However, you can, IMO, expect this to come with a requirement that the "large small jets" are to be flown by USAirways pilots. In other words, they will attempt to force Jets for Jobs down your throats once more. You are being used as pawns, both by the Company and the union.

If that move is successful, Woerth will sign your contract. There is no reason for him NOT to do that as long as those aircraft are flown by "mainline pilots". I must ask you, what is the difference if the 70 & 90 seaters are not flown by Freedom pilots, but instead they are flown by U pilots? How many of them will Mesa pilots get to fly? Don't be surprised if you see the America West pilots attempt a similar maneuver/strategy.

Hopefully you (Mesa pilots) will NOT agree to abrogate your seniority in favor of pilots from another airline. If you agree to Jets for Jobs, that's exactly what you'll be doing.

 

[Freight Dog]

Surplus,

We've had a couple of discussions before, and I am curious... what exactly is wrong with AWA pilots blocking 90 seat RJ's flown under *THEIR* code in *THEIR* colors at CONTRACT carriers?

I hear you Comair boys aren't too happy about Chautauqua taking your MCO base and doing DCI flying.

You will claim that Comair is still expanding... GREAT.
You will also claim that you went on strike to get parity in pay.. GREAT, I applaud you for that.

My question is... when your flying slowly starts getting chipped away by *contract* carriers flying your old routes at slave-labor cost, are you not gonna try to prevent it especially given the fact that you've walked the line for 89 days trying to get rid of the slave labor wages at your airline?

Looking forward to your response...

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Re: Re: Freedom Fighters

You make some interesting points that I think have a lot of validity. I believe you will get the single carrier status that is being sought after. When you do, Freedom will be represented by the union (ALPA).

This is exactly why I think that your so-called "flogging of Freedom pilots" was and is a huge mistake. By going to Freedom voluntarily, Mesa pilots could have helped to facilitate the single carrier ruling by the NMB. If that didn't work you could have easily organized Freedom and joined the union anyway. At the same time, you could have avoided ailienation of a group of people, all of whom will ultimately wind up within your ranks.

It is not wrong for you to object to the creation of an alter ego airline on your property. However, the strategy used to fight it is highly questionable and, IMO, ill advised.


Nah, these guys that went are going to try and argue they saved the company but they backstabbed us. We didn't need any of them to go to prove our case for single carrier. Freedom could have hired off the street 100% and we still would have gotten single carrier. We have always said Mesa can buy or start as many certificates as they want as long as we get to fly the airplanes with one contract and one seniority list.


It is left to be seen what ALPA will do if your new contract includes the CL-700 and 900. What happens at America West, where ALPA is currently trying to prevent Mesa from flying this equipment will be a factor. Also, the new strategy of ALPA at USAirways will be another major factor. I'm sure you know that ALPA is currently attempting to modify the restructuring agreement in a way that would permit the aircraft that ALPA now defines as "large small jets" to be flown at the "contract carriers".

However, you can, IMO, expect this to come with a requirement that the "large small jets" are to be flown by USAirways pilots. In other words, they will attempt to force Jets for Jobs down your throats once more. You are being used as pawns, both by the Company and the union.

If that move is successful, Woerth will sign your contract. There is no reason for him NOT to do that as long as those aircraft are flown by "mainline pilots". I must ask you, what is the difference if the 70 & 90 seaters are not flown by Freedom pilots, but instead they are flown by U pilots? How many of them will Mesa pilots get to fly? Don't be surprised if you see the America West pilots attempt a similar maneuver/strategy.

Hopefully you (Mesa pilots) will NOT agree to abrogate your seniority in favor of pilots from another airline. If you agree to Jets for Jobs, that's exactly what you'll be doing.

You made some timely and interesting points yourself, many of which I will bring up in other discussions and look into deeper. I can tell you this much, J4J while many things it does not abrogate Mesa pilots seniority numbers. I am yet decided on J4J. I do know one fact, J4J is the brainchild of none other than Andy Hughes, MEC chairman @ Mesa Airlines. This I know, it was designed as a bargaining tool for Mesa pilots to get scope, in exchange for USAir furloughed pilots to get back in the air, and Mesa Air Group to get some multi millions of additional revenue per year. At least this is how it being sold to us. We do not lose seniority with this deal, these USAir pilots go to the bottom of our seniority list and may only fly in the US Air system in the Jets allocated them only ABOVE the current flying now happening. I think we have 40 jets in the U system now. The way J4J is written up we will give one job to a USAir pilot for every NEW Mesa pilot job created in THEIR system only, and only in any ADDITIONAL flying. The 40 jets we now fly for them are not included, neither are the HPX or F9X jets or any of our turboprop flying. I am not defending it, just defining it. Like I said I am yet undecided on J4J. I will look into your concerns. I saw a press release yesterday that USAir suddenly wants some of our 70 seaters flown in their system. Us/them not sure really. I dont know what thats all about but this gets more interesting by the minute.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Surplus,

We've had a couple of discussions before, and I am curious... what exactly is wrong with AWA pilots blocking 90 seat RJ's flown under *THEIR* code in *THEIR* colors at CONTRACT carriers?

I hear you Comair boys aren't too happy about Chautauqua taking your MCO base and doing DCI flying.

You will claim that Comair is still expanding... GREAT.
You will also claim that you went on strike to get parity in pay.. GREAT, I applaud you for that.

My question is... when your flying slowly starts getting chipped away by *contract* carriers flying your old routes at slave-labor cost, are you not gonna try to prevent it especially given the fact that you've walked the line for 89 days trying to get rid of the slave labor wages at your airline?

Looking forward to your response...

\

Is this what Island Air pilots do on rainy days in Hawaii? Check threads on Mesa Airlines contract negotiations? Doesn't Island Air give you enough flying or are the half days island hopping in 78 degree winter weather driving you all futless yet?

Nah brah I am just poking fun. I'm jealous, I wish I was in your seat. I should have gone last year when they called me. I'd be a DHC8 CA in Hawaii now. Looks like the waiting list at AQ is getting out of hand. I hear 1300 pilots updating their resumes regularly and the "short stack" in Peter Clark's office is down to just 50 with only 35 to be hired this year. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**.

I am glad you are taking interest in Mesa and Freedom, what happens to us has ramifications to ALL PILOTS. Not just Mesa, or our codeshares. Dont worry, like I said before the buck stops here. We will not let this one get by us. If Freedom gets away with this what's to stop ANY OTHER airline from trying the same crap.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

i guess I should have said daaaam. Thats what got censored. Nothing else.

 

[Freight Dog]

Ahh.. that's what you get when you are a junior captain. I was on reserve today, and they were doing captain IOE's, so fat chance I'd get called... so good time to catch up on what's going on in the industry.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Freedom Fighters Party 1 of 2

Nah, these guys that went are going to try and argue they saved the company but they backstabbed us. We didn't need any of them to go to prove our case for single carrier. Freedom could have hired off the street 100% and we still would have gotten single carrier.

I agree that those who went to Freedom certainly did not "save the company".

Perhaps it is true that they "backstabbed" you. However, I think that happened because of the way you chose to handle the situation. That's what I meant when I said I thought it was ill advised -- a poor choice of available options.

If you had all decided to go voluntarily you could have set up a situation that would guarantee that ALL of Freedom would be staffed with Mesa pilots. If not right away, later on you could have easily brought Freedom back into the union simply by voting for union representation or through the NMB. This could have avoided the animosity that now exists within your ranks. Nevertheless, I agree that Freedom as an alter ego has to go.

Freedom will eventually be union, whether it is forced by the NMB or done voluntarily. I think it would be better (when that time comes) if you were not angry with each other since you will all be in the same union one way or the other. JMO.

I agree that you don't "need" them to prove your single carrier case. I just think it would be smoother if you were all on the same side when it happens. Because of the way it was done, you will now have a division within your house. Given the nasty management that you guys have to deal with, I just think that a house that is not divided internally is better than one that is.

Anyway, what's done is done so there's not much point in crying about it at this stage. I expect the NMB will grant the single carrier petition thereby giving you union representation that includes Freedom. I hope that is what happens.

Your next paragraph is complex so I'll try to break it up and make sense of the reply.

You made some timely and interesting points yourself, many of which I will bring up in other discussions and look into deeper. I can tell you this much, J4J while many things it does not abrogate Mesa pilots seniority numbers.

Thanks for listening/reading. I think you are mistaken when you say that J4J does not abrogate Mesa pilots' seniority. If the current J4J protocols are accepted by Mesa pilots, it will definitely abrogate your seniority

Yes, the U pilots will go to the "bottom" of your list. However, a seniority number that you can't use is of no value. With J4J, 50% of the new vacancies will go to U pilots, including Captain positions. Every time a "junior" U pilot on the "bottom" of your list gets a Captain position ahead of a senior Mesa pilot --- you have abrogated your seniority. You have given the promotion that would normally go to the senior Mesa pilot, to a pilot that is from another airline.

The U pilots will come with their U longevity. They will be "junior" on paper, but they will be able to outbid you for schedules and vacancies. That abrogates your seniority.

The U pilots will have a "minimum wage", regardless of seat, that is higher than the wage of a Mesa pilot for the very same job. That abrogates your seniority and your contract.

The longer they stay (and some think it will be a very long time) the more of them will be promoted ahead of "senior" Mesa pilots. That abrogates your seniority.

Additionally, there are lots of other "details" in the protocol that are not at all clear. Nearly all of them abrogate your seniority in one way or another. Again I remind you, a number on a piece of paper means nothing unless you can use it. The J4J protocol would give USAirways pilots super seniority on your property. There's no two ways about it.

I'm not against the U pilots getting jobs at Mesa or any other airline. I'm totally opposed to giving them "super seniority" for any reason. They would NEVER give you that at their airline. As a matter of record, their entire past efforts have been directed at reducing or eliminating your very exsistence. This sudden change is nothing more that a blatant effort to benefit themselves at your expense. They didn't have to do things this way, they simply chose this opition instead of the others.

I'm sorry they are furloughed, but that does NOT entitle them to super seniority at your airline just becuse you add more jets and more flying. Their company needs that flying and they need it to be performed in regional jets. If the U pilots will not allow those jets to be flown, then they are the one's that should pay the price of the consequences. YOUR GROUP did not cause any of the problems at USAir Group. You should not have to pay any price, let alone abrogating your seniority and your contract in favor of USAirways pilots. J4J forces you to do that and threatens you with "no new jets for U" if you don't. That's wrong!

If they don't want the new jets to fly, then they can go out of business -- which is exactly what will happen. This whole J4J abortion is nothing more than ALPA trying to force regional pilots to give their jobs, promotions, plus special pay and privileges to mainline pilots in preference to the pilots of Mesa airlines, the USAir Group subsidiaries, and anyone else that sings on to that scheme. I'm sorry to have to say it, but J4J is nothing more than blatant discrimination by ALPA against regional pilots that are members (in most cases) of ALPA. It's bad politics, bad representation. bargaining in bad faith, bad business and it DOES abrogate your seniority at Mesa.

Why do you think every other regional pilot group has rejected this absurd protocol? I assure you it is not because they are mean, or greedy or don't care about the furloughed pilots. The only ones that have "accepted" it are the wholly owned subsidiaries and that is only because the were forced, by ALPA, to do so.

I'm sure you know that I am not a Mesa pilot and I have no right to tell you what to do. The decision is yours. However, I will tell you that my pilot group would NEVER accept that idea in any form.

I am yet decided on J4J. I do know one fact, J4J is the brainchild of none other than Andy Hughes, MEC chairman @ Mesa Airlines. This I know, it was designed as a bargaining tool for Mesa pilots to get scope, in exchange for USAir furloughed pilots to get back in the air, and Mesa Air Group to get some multi millions of additional revenue per year. At least this is how it being sold to us.

There is a key word or phrase in your paragraph. It is the last sentence where you say: "this is how it (is) being sold to us."

I have no doubt that's how it's being "sold" to you. That's just how a used car salesman takes you to the cleaners by selling you a junker.

It happens that I know your MEC Chairman personally and have know him for a long time. I think he's a good man and I know that he works very hard for the benefit of Mesa pilots. Andy may support J4J (I'm not sure if he does) but I doubt that the idea was his "brainchild". If it was, then it is his first big mistake as your Chairman.

Andy is faced with an extremely difficult situation at Mesa. Right now he desperately needs the support of ALPA to make anything good happen at Mesa. I'm certain he is under extreme pressure and based on my own experience, I can easily guess where that pressure is coming from.

I really don't know what he thinks about J4J for I have not discussed it with him. However, based on my past knowledge of Captain Hughes, I believe that if he supports this it is because he is being forced to do so, just as the WO's were forced to swallow it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't believe that the man I have known for years would invent such a dangerous idea.

The entire J4J concept stinks to high heaven. I don't know who's "idea" it was originally, maybe Beebe, maybe Muggerditchian, maybe Woerth himself, but until Andy tells me personally that it was his idea, I just can't believe that.

Andy is a politician. His duty is to do the best that he can for Mesa pilots in all circumstances. I believe that he is doing that to the best of his ability. Sometimes a politician has to get in bed with the devil himself in order to survive and protect his people. If Captain Hughes supports J4J, in my opinion, it is because he has been given no choice by the powers that be. Those "powers" run the ALPA, not Mesa Airlines.

Regardless, I still think that Mesa pilots should reject the Jets for Jobs protocol. You will still get the additional aircraft and flying simply because USAir Group has no other choice. They have to get those aircraft flying and soon. They have no money to buy their own. They can't fund Mid Atlantic (at least not right now). The dirty deal with Midway is much too slow. Chautauqa pilots have rejected this mess. TSA hasn't voted, but they don't want it. Who else has access to RJs and can get more in a hurry?

They tried SkyWest --- the pilots voted it down, to their credit especially since they don't even have a union. Who else can produce the aircraft required by U in the quantities required, in a hurry?

You don't have to give in to what you are being "sold". ALPA is just trying to dazzle you with smoke and mirrors. It's a used car with high mileage....... don't buy it.

Please go to Part 2

 

[surplus1]

Part 2 of 2

I am not defending it, just defining it. Like I said I am yet undecided on J4J. I will look into your concerns. I saw a press release yesterday that USAir suddenly wants some of our 70 seaters flown in their system. Us/them not sure really. I dont know what thats all about but this gets more interesting by the minute.

Thanks for defining your thoughts. I appreciate that very much. However, I still think you are very mistaken if you believe this does not affect your seniority. It definitely does and I have tried to point out some of the reasons.

As for the press release, just listen to the USAirways MEC VARS and you'll get some ideas as to their next move.

I have read the J4J protocol, the restructuring agreement, the old LOA 81 and the USAirways PWA. I think I'm pretty familiar with what they say and what they do. My own vote, if I had one, would be not no, but HE!L NO!

I still think they are trying to coerce you into abrogating your seniority and other provisions of your contract. If that were not so, there would be no need to get your agreement, they would just do it. They can't do it unless you agree because it violates your contract. So they are "asking you", and coercing you to give up your rights in favor of them. It is not extortion, but it IS coercion and it sucks.

Since I don't fly for Mesa perhaps I should mind my own business. Well, I am minding my own business. If you folks decide to accept this, it will affect every regional pilot in the business one way or the other. Other airlines will try the same thing and ultimately my group will be faced with some version of the same idea. I don't want to "meddle" in your afairs, but this will affect my group too. Therefore, I oppose it vigorously and I hope it never happens.

Other than J4J, I am 100% with Mesa pilots in your effort to control Freedom and obtain a fair contract. Best wishes!

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Ahh.. that's what you get when you are a junior captain. I was on reserve today, and they were doing captain IOE's, so fat chance I'd get called... so good time to catch up on what's going on in the industry.

HAHA did I hit that nail or what. Reserve HNL, shoot I could think of a bunch of things to do out here. AQ lets my other friend check in every two hours (on his reserve days) so we can surf. Any such program at Island?

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Re: Re: Freedom Fighters Party 1 of 2

If you had all decided to go voluntarily you could have set up a situation that would guarantee that ALL of Freedom would be staffed with Mesa pilots. If not right away, later on you could have easily brought Freedom back into the union simply by voting for union representation or through the NMB.

That idead was thrown around by some line pilots before it got real heated up. Much easier said than done. If comes and If's brother.

The U pilots will come with their U longevity. They will be "junior" on paper, but they will be able to outbid you for schedules and vacancies. That abrogates your seniority.

The U pilots will have a "minimum wage", regardless of seat, that is higher than the wage of a Mesa pilot for the very same job. That abrogates your seniority and your contract.

Additionally, there are lots of other "details" in the protocol that are not at all clear. Nearly all of them abrogate your seniority in one way or another. Again I remind you, a number on a piece of paper means nothing unless you can use it. The J4J protocol would give USAirways pilots super seniority on your property. There's no two ways about it.

Super seniority within their fenced flying, sure, maybe, OK I'll give you that, but it is still supposed to be fenced flying, they can only excercise their "super seniority" within the NEW, ADDITIONAL, EXTRA flying. They can't mooch their way over to any other system. I am fairly certain they cant even fly the current US Air flying. Its only out of the new jobs. I see your point but I think it's a lot of fear of the unknown. I think you're just worried about black helicopters.

If they don't want the new jets to fly, then they can go out of business -- which is exactly what will happen.

And how is that a good thing for mesa pilots? Do you know how much of our flying is in the US Air system? How is losing 40% of our current flying better than making a deal on an EXTRA 20% that we never had before?

Why do you think every other regional pilot group has rejected this absurd protocol? I assure you it is not because they are mean, or greedy or don't care about the furloughed pilots. The only ones that have "accepted" it are the wholly owned subsidiaries and that is only because the were forced, by ALPA, to do so.

This is one point that holds some weight. If it is such a good deal, why didn't somebody else step up to the plate when given the chance?? Then again maybe nobody else sees the value in scope protection. Who ever thought we'd see the day a regional airline
struck over scope? Mesa is about to. Our strike center is up and running with an open house scheduled next Friday.

I have no doubt that's how it's being "sold" to you. That's just how a used car salesman takes you to the cleaners by selling you a junker.

Well thats because I am an ex-metal slinger myself. I think I might know a few things about negotiating and selling.

It happens that I know your MEC Chairman personally and have know him for a long time. I think he's a good man and I know that he works very hard for the benefit of Mesa pilots. Andy may support J4J (I'm not sure if he does) but I doubt that the idea was his "brainchild". If it was, then it is his first big mistake as your Chairman.

It is Andy's idea. Robert Henry was boasting about it to my face. Every time I talk to Andy I forget to ask him. I seem to remember Andy saying it was his idea at a pizza party a few months ago. I'm fairly certain it is his idea.

I really don't know what he thinks about J4J for I have not discussed it with him. However, based on my past knowledge of Captain Hughes, I believe that if he supports this it is because he is being forced to do so, just as the WO's were forced to swallow it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't believe that the man I have known for years would invent such a dangerous idea.

Andy is a politician. His duty is to do the best that he can for Mesa pilots in all circumstances. I believe that he is doing that to the best of his ability. Sometimes a politician has to get in bed with the devil himself in order to survive and protect his people. If Captain Hughes supports J4J, in my opinion, it is because he has been given no choice by the powers that be. Those "powers" run the ALPA, not Mesa Airlines.

You might be right, or J4J might simply be worth it to trade for scope protection from a mgmt that about defines the word whipsaw.

Regardless, I still think that Mesa pilots should reject the Jets for Jobs protocol. You will still get the additional aircraft and flying simply because USAir Group has no other choice.

Unless they die in the desert waiting for the water. Then what do we do? Fly our RJ's under our own colors and compete with Southwest? Riiight. Have you flown on a Mesa RJ to a Mesa staffed base? I get visions monkeys fu**ing footballs every time I fly into one of our bases. As bad as they the HP and U staffed bases are, they are leagues above our own.

I dont have an answer yet on the negative side to J4J, I'll let you know if I make up my mind.