To All Major Airline Pilots

[K.I.S.S.]

FlyingFarmer,

Well, someone finally said it! A NATIONAL PROFESSIONAL AIRLINE PILOTS UNION. I have been waiting to hear that. Before I go any further let me say this is just a pet theory that I have developed while I camp out at as "commuter". Also, I am not pro-union nor am I against unions. When you need one, you need one, and when you don't you don't!

I think we need ONE. We, being ALL us pilots who are watching our pay, lifestyle and benefits crumble. My pop is not a pilot but happened to retire reciently from a unionized profession. There is only ONE UNION there. When you start (WITH ANYBODY!) on to the list you go. If (when) you get laid off (that is the term the "stupid blue collar types" use) you get the NEXT job opportunity in the industry to come back. AT YOUR CURRENT LEVEL OF SEINORITY AND PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, I said "stupid blue collar types" sarcastically because all of us smart ass pilots run around congratulating ourselves on our success on a regular basis. Face it we are a pretty "proud" group. But! We continually compete with one another for better this and more that. Not to pick on anyone but in my brief time as a professional pilot I had the pleasure of watching United and Delta pilots go head to head to see who was going to be TOP GUN (er DOG). Not even a thought to getting together to form a more cohesive labor party.

And this problem of regionals "taking" the mainline flying away would eaisly be addressed if it was one MASSIVE list. More safety for us and more fair options for all. Just imigaine it...... Oh CRAP! I've been "furloughed". Well as soon as ANY airline hires again, I'm back at my previous pay and seinority.......

Sorry, I was dreaming there. Dreaming because we are naturally competitive (to our own demise at times). Great on the flight deck, BAD from a COLLECTIVE bargaining standpoint. Lets face it we are all a bunch of greedy, cry -baby, spoiled, over-paid (especially me at a regional) under-worked loud mouths.


Or maybe not................

ONE List!

Lord, help us if we don't do it. They are smarter and meaner than we are.

 

[mach none]

One seniority list would be tough. How would you propose doing it?

Grandfather those at the airlines? What if you got furloughed, would keep your recall rights to that airline while the new seniority list shakes itself out? Or would you go to where ever your seniority could hold. Tough deal to sell. I also believe management would not go for that either. How would they hire and fire. Each airline has their own personality and they would lose that.

These are just a few of the questions I could think of while mowing my grass

Mach

 

[Ty Webb]

Actually, what I have said on here several times already, is that we need a "Guild".

Your seat/pay would be tied to years of industry service, and the wages set by the Guild of Professional Pilots would be what you are paid, regardless of which airline you were flying for.

The airline calls the Guild, and says "Hey, we ned 170 B717 FO this year and 170 PIC's. That's it. No discussion about pay, benefits, etc. . . . . . . it's already set by the Guild.

If a company downsizes, you get the next open seat that you qualify for . . . . . you make your bid based upon where you want to live and work.

For example:


Year of service:

1-2) CFI.CFII
3 ) MEI or 135 SIC
4-6 ) 135 PIC/ 121 SIC
7-8) 121 T-prop PIC/ 121 Jet RJ FO
9-10) RJ PIC or narrow body FO
11-13) Narrowbody PIC or widebody FO
25-+ widebody PIC

 

[DAL737FO]

So in this world it would benefit the person to bypass college and accept the first flying job they could get that would get them on the national list. Don't get me wrong it took me 11 years to get my college degree and I really don't put as much stock in that block on the application as some people do but the block is still there. What about military guys? Do they get a number when they graduate flight school?

 

[ivauir]

hmm nice pipe dream

Where would military pilots fit into this "onelist".

 

[pilotyip]

What about guild fees?

Most guilds or closed labor unions have an fee to join, something like 10K, or you are the offspring of a guild member and gets to assume the rights of your father without paying the fee. The members of the guild are trained to do thier job by the guild members, not the company using thier services. So the airlines might go for a guild, get rid of all of the training costs. Hire you as a MD-80 F/O at the going rate, now an opening comes up for an MD-80 Capt, the airline goes back to the guild and gets a Capt assigned to the position. Business slows down, the airlines gets rid of all of its DC-9's all the DC-9 guild members go back to the guild including the Capt who has been there 15 years, repalced by the son of senior guild member who's dad paid for his A-320 training, he is 23 years old. Read the history of guilds. So you can see guilds will not solve all of the pilots employment problems.

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: What about guild fees?

Most guilds or closed labor unions have an fee to join, something like 10K, or you are the offspring of a guild member and gets to assume the rights of your father without paying the fee.

I don't know about you, but I would assume that you would already have to have your ratings to join. I currently pay $800. a year to my union (as an FO).

The members of the guild are trained to do thier job by the guild members, not the company using thier services. So the airlines might go for a guild, get rid of all of the training costs.

It might work that way, might not. Lots of different ways to go with that. Whatever the members of the guild decide- what a concept!

Hire you as a MD-80 F/O at the going rate, now an opening comes up for an MD-80 Capt, the airline goes back to the guild and gets a Capt assigned to the position.

Uh, huh. And you still are the FO, until your seniority in the guild and availabale opening allows you to move up.

Business slows down, the airlines gets rid of all of its DC-9's all the DC-9 guild members go back to the guild including the Capt who has been there 15 years, repalced by the son of senior guild member who's dad paid for his A-320 training, he is 23 years old.

Nope, because the A320-trained kid doesn;t have the seniority in the Guild to get the slot. Doens't matter what training he bought. That's the beauty of the thing. Those DC9 pilots get to bid whatever their seniority in the guild allows them to hold.

Read the history of guilds. So you can see guilds will not solve all of the pilots employment problems.

It would solve the problem of senior pilots having to start over at $35K because their management pissed the company away. It would solve the problem of "the race to the bottom" that is occurring at the regionals right now- all trying to become the lowest bidder. It would solve the problem of whipsawing that is plaguing the DCI guys.

It's not perfect, but it's a starting point.

 

[JimNtexas]

Actually, what I have said on here several times already, is that we need a "Guild".

Ah yes, a guild. Everyone knows that the middle ages were a period of great economic prosperity and happiness. Let's look to 1066 for economic models that work.

While we're at it, lets have a King who awards routes to his noblemen. Just sit down and divide the country into zones (lets call them Baronies and fifedoms). A Nobleman gets all the routes for his fifedom. If anyone tries to compete, off with their heads! Everything will pass from father to son of course. Wouldn't want individual ablity to be a factor, that would be unfair.

What total horseS***.

Here's a radical idea. Start your own airline with your own money. Pay the pilots a zillion dollars for working one day a month. Use neopotisim as your primary HR policy. If you can make a buck that way, more power to you.

 

[pilotyip]

now now Jim

Jim your are showing an attitude, don't you those these are professional pilots you are talking about, why they carry a great burden of responsibility for the safety of our traveling public and should be recognized by pay that makes they feel that the burden of responsibility is being recognized. How dare you challenge any of them to come up with a business plan to run an airline, why it would detract from that awesome burden of responsibility. Besides I think the history of pilot run airlines is pretty dismal. Legend with 727's out of EWR is remembered as the last. 50K PFT for a job, but it was run by professional pilots. These pilots all have great ideas on how to pay themselves more, but nothing to give to management on how to make more money to pay themselves. At our company if all the management was eliminated in operations the pilots would get about a 3% raise

 

[Ty Webb]

Hmmnnn, why am I not surprised that you two brain surgeons have missed the whole point?

On one hand, we have PilotYIP who has risen to the level of King Turd over at a crummy company who expects their pilots to have uniform hanging by the door and make it to the airport in 20 minutes for an assignment that could keep them gone for weeks. No wonder he thinks all pilots are over-paid primadonnas. He calls himself the Chief Pilot, but it sounds to me like he's the Den Mother of a Shelter for Battered Pilots.

Then, on the other hand, we have Jimmy Boy, who hails from Texas, who has zippo industry experience and has spent most of his adult life sucking at the gummint titty, but feels qualified to insult others who are actually out here working in the trenches.

You guys are a perfect pair. Why don;t you spend some time down at PilotYIP's Home for Wayward Pilots and you guys can talk about what a dummy I am for wanting to make sure the rest of us don't end up in YIP, too, sitting around with you clowns, happy to take whatever bones they'll throw your way, because "... at least we're not sleeping in tents, and no one's shooting at us".

No offense to other freight pilots/veterans, who are probably embarassed to learn that you have these two door prizes among your colleagues.

 

[pilotyip]

see this is a one way

See someone's posts does not agree with the general tread posted by a pilot who defines his position by what he wants it to be and it results in a personal attack, this board is open for comments, you post an option and I post a response, that is the way it works. I have never attacked you personally. You Mr. Ty Webb are extremely lucky to be where you are and alot of this has nothing to do with your skill or desire. I have friends far more qualified than you will ever be, combat veterans of Viet Nam, int'l experienced wide body Capt.'s who worked for airlines that did not make it, EAL, PanAm, Braniff. There is an element of luck involved in everyone's career, and because someone ends up at YIP in the on-demand business does not mark them as a looser, you by a couple turns of events could be looking at a job at YIP as the best you could find. You work for a great place and I would love to be 15 years younger and jerking gear for you, but it is not to be.

 

[FL717]

Actually JimNTexas was the first to start with the bashing. Ty Webb put forth an opinion, and followed up with ideas to back them up. Then someone comes along and offers nothing but sarcasm and spite. I also have my doubts about a Guild and don't care for the idea... YET, but whether I agree with a Guild or not is irrelevant, I'm with Ty Webb and his response on this one.

 

[Dennis Miller]

Actually, what I have said on here several times already, is that we need a "Guild".

Like the freakin' Screen Actors Guild where 8% of the members work. Sounds too much like the airline biz. And lay off pilotyip, you're starten' to sound like that brooding New Kid on The Block. You know the one, the one with the hat on sideways givin' ya that rebel without a clue look. Just lettin' ya know he's a motorcycle man, in a mo-ped band.

 

[JimNtexas]

Then, on the other hand, we have Jimmy Boy, who hails from Texas, who has zippo industry experience and has spent most of his adult life sucking at the gummint titty, but feels qualified to insult others who are actually out here working in the trenches.

Even if that were true, the idea of a "guild" controlling all pilots is still absurd.

But for what its worth since I got out of the USAF I've worked entirely in the private sector and have started a company that employs 4 full time and about 40 part time people. Ty, Have you ever signed the FRONT side of a paycheck?

I'm sorry if I was too sacrastic, but gee whiz what planet are you guys on? We will never have a system in which you get hired because your Daddy was a pilot, and once hired, you slide up and down a senority pole without worry.

 

[crosscut]

...Just lettin' ya know he's a motorcycle man, in a mo-ped band.

Wait a min - Motorcycle man in a mo-ped band? I thought pilotyip was a DA-20 Ck Capt. Now - which is it?