To 121 pilots from a dispatcher...

[FracCapt]

Heh... already been done! Except Gulfstream markets it as "training."

That's what I was hinting at....the DIET industry is a whole lot bigger in the US than the AVIATION WHORE industry!

 

[Best on a Camel]

I got this ACARS message from a crew tonight:

HEY DISPATCHERS PUT YOUR THINKING CAPS ON. AH (location) COLD DEICE MAYBE WE SHOULD GIVE EM GAS. LUCKILY THEY OVER FUELED US

My response:

YOU'RE RIGHT. GOOD THING THEY OVERFUELED YOU. IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU HAVE ENOUGH FUEL WHY DON'T YOU CALL ME AND ASK FOR MORE BEFORE YOU SIGN THE RELEASE. JOINT RESPONSIBILITY. REMEMBER?

Am I wrong here? If you, as PIC, don't think you have enough fuel for the intended operation would you call dispatch and request more fuel or would you just b!tch at dispatch as this "captain" did?

If you don't know this already, we can't accurately plan for taxi times. We can't predict taxi and deicing times or delays to the minute.

Yes, you're right. Why should you be expected to do your job and think? The pilots will do it for you. You just sit there and let the computer spit out a generic flight plan. "Yea, they will need to de-ice but I'm gonna give them the standard taxi gas, because otherwise I would have to change the paperwork."

If there's a problem they'll catch it and call. Don't bother me I'm playing online yatzee. I watch people like you on the dispatch floor and realize why so many pilots have a low opinion of dispatchers.

 

[Best on a Camel]

When snow removal/de-icing ops are in progress, I always double whatever the standard taxi time is as calculated by the flight planning system; more if I have a verifiable means to determine what the actual out-to-off delay is. For the Bornemann/SABRE system, you can type either a time value in the TXIO box on the FPCFP screen, preceded by a plus (eg, +30 for 30 minute taxi time), or an actual amount of taxi fuel. If that wasnt covered during your OJI, get with your training department and get it covered! If your system can only do the standard, you need a new system...

What one regional did was require all captains going thru their initial equipment upgrade to spend an ENTIRE shift in with a dispatcher so the captain can see what it all entails, and get the story on the other side of the mic - after all, we're required by law (121.547) to jumpseat and see your side of the ops coin, no reason you cant do the same. Most captains, especially the younger ones, were usually impresed with all the info we have at our fingertips.

After all, when I build a specific reroute for TSRA, you take a center offered direct right into the line of level 5, and then call us asking where's it clear, and by the way were near min fuel now with all the deviating - if the DX is watching, he can see it all taking place beforehand, and start to come up with a plan before he gets that call from Atlanta Radio - and maybe nudge you back on his originally intended route.

Now there's the difference between a guy who knows his job and one who doesn't.

 

[ac_dispatcher]

My question to all Pilots,

What does the term "joint authority" mean to you as PIC?


Frankly to be honest I have had a Cpt. ask (once) to do something that was unsafe in my opinion. Even with his "final responsibility" he got nothing from me. If I don’t get a warm - n- fuzzy, the Cpt. gets nothing from me. That goes both ways - from the Cpt and the Company.

I am the first line of defense from an accident or incident.

Fact of the matter is this: The PIC deals with his one flight at that time. I currently have about 250 aircraft under my release authority. Ill push out as many as 70 releases a shift. There is no defined limit to the amount I can be tasked with. Has anyone had a limit set by their FSDO or Company? Ive never seen it. That being said it DOES NOT let me off. If there is a change to my release conditions I REQUIRE a call. I have a multitude of information at my hands that the PIC may not have.


"joint authority" to me:

I must agree to the conditions set forth in the release and all conditions during the flights "Operational Control". If not take my name off and find another Dispatcher. If the PIC can self release more power to him (her).

-ac

 

[ac_dispatcher]

minitour -

well...the PIC has the final authority over the flight...

If he doesn't have enough fuel, he can me one of two decisions.
1. Do something to get more.
2. Do nothing to get more.

One makes sense, the other doesn't.

Getting more fuel makes sense.

Calling your Dispatcher who is "Jointly Responsible" for the flight to amend the release makes just as much sense.

 

[surplus1]

My answer, Not to all dispatchers but to YOU.

Your post has a general "tone" that will meet with resistance from seasoned captains. I know you didn't ask but I'll tell you anyway; take the chip off your shoulder.

Your "attitude" is best reflected in you last statement on "joint authority". While technically correct, it would get you nowhere with me or any other experienced captain that I know. Perhaps the captain cannot "self release" but guess what buddy, you can't fly. If what you want to do is play some sort of silly game and get yourself on a power trip I guarantee you it will fizzle in a heartbeat and you'll be the one that winds up like a flat beer; useless.

Pump out a "release" that isn't perfect or one that I don't like and I'll just refuse to sign it. In short, you will "require" nothing. Either we work together as a team or you won't work at all. The only "warm-and-fuzzy" you'll get is the requirement that you explain your negative attitude, with ever-increasing frequency. Start that nonsense and in short order every single release that comes from your desk will be challenged. Fuel orders will be changed, routings will be questioned, notams had better be up to date and so will the wx you provide. Remember, we outnumber you at a ratio of about 100:1, often more. When you can't get anybody to accept your original "releases", it won't be too long before you're so bogged down that the only thing you'll have time for is sending out your resume.

Like you said, I must agree to accept your release and also to accept any changes you propose while enroute. Remember that word, "propose". You "direct" nothing and you will "require" nothing. We're not in the military and you don't give "orders". If you won't accept what I ask for guess what; the airplane will NOT fall out of the sky. It will keep right on trucking in the direction that I choose to point it. Want to "take your name off the release, go ahead. You can sit there and twiddle your thumbs all day long if you choose. It won't take too long before the Company figures out which one of us is useless.

My guess is you've been "spoiled" because you're dealing with a bunch of kids that you think you can intimidate. I suggest you don't try that crap with a group of seasoned captains for if you do, your "operational control" will cease to exist. Every good Captain needs ONE good Dispatcher. Every good Dispatcher needs 100 good Captains. Get the message?

Does that mean you should agree to something you think is unsafe? Of course NOT! No professional Dispatcher should ever do that, and no professional Captain will ever ask you to.

A wise man picks the fights he can win. Get off the power trip and we'll both do our jobs. It's a lot easier.

My question to all Pilots,

What does the term "joint authority" mean to you as PIC?


Frankly to be honest I have had a Cpt. ask (once) to do something that was unsafe in my opinion. Even with his "final responsibility" he got nothing from me. If I don’t get a warm - n- fuzzy, the Cpt. gets nothing from me. That goes both ways - from the Cpt and the Company.

I am the first line of defense from an accident or incident.

Fact of the matter is this: The PIC deals with his one flight at that time. I currently have about 250 aircraft under my release authority. Ill push out as many as 70 releases a shift. There is no defined limit to the amount I can be tasked with. Has anyone had a limit set by their FSDO or Company? Ive never seen it. That being said it DOES NOT let me off. If there is a change to my release conditions I REQUIRE a call. I have a multitude of information at my hands that the PIC may not have.


"joint authority" to me:

I must agree to the conditions set forth in the release and all conditions during the flights "Operational Control". If not take my name off and find another Dispatcher. If the PIC can self release more power to him (her).

-ac

 

[ac_dispatcher]

Im sorry you think Im on some sort of power trip here. Im not.

To quote myself:

"Even with his "final responsibility" he got nothing from me. If I don’t get a warm - n- fuzzy, the Cpt. gets nothing from me. That goes both ways - from the Cpt and the Company."

I aggree that I failed to add that in most cases its from the company. If I dont aggree with what the company wants "The Cpt get nothing from me" still goes.

I dont think Im on a power trip I just take my job very seriously. as stated:

" I am the first line of defense from an accident or incident."

>>>>>
Pump out a "release" that isn't perfect or one that I don't like and I'll just refuse to sign it.
I dont expect you to. Its called an amendment

"If there is a change to my release conditions I REQUIRE a call"
Your right I do require a call. Why - because if my paperwork doesnt match yours and the FAA checks it out we BOTH could be in trouble.

Start that nonsense and in short order every single release that comes from your desk will be challenged. Fuel orders will be changed, routings will be questioned, notams had better be up to date and so will the wx you provide. Remember, we outnumber you at a ratio of about 100:1, often more. When you can't get anybody to accept your original "releases", it won't be too long before you're so bogged down that the only thing you'll have time for is sending out your resume.

When the chief Pilot, DO, and Director of Dispatch checks over all data to wonder why the flight was late what will they find? If the release is within the standard of the Regs and company SOP the dispatcher will not need his resume sent out. Not saying the Captain will as well.

>>>>>>>
The common appearance is Dispatch vrs Captain.

In a lot of cases the company will come out with a "Policy" and expect the DXR to enforce it. Thus adding flames to that fire.

Maybe this thread has fired me up a bit. Ill admit that.


Honestly can you please answer my question:

What does the term "joint authority" mean to you as CPT?

 

[Best on a Camel]

" I am the first line of defense from an accident or incident."

Can you elaborate? Not being a smart@ss just curious what you think would be included in this.

 

[ac_dispatcher]

No problem.

I start a flight up to 4-6 hours prior to departure. I’m looking for anything that would put my flight at risk - weather, weight, airport conditions, aircraft condition.

I’m usually the first to look at the flight for irregularities. I point out or stop things before the Cpt needs to get involved.

 

[ac_dispatcher]

Let me grab my soapbox here:



I take MY flights to a personal level. Captains refer to the aircraft as “their aircraft”



Well I call it “My Flight”



I call it my flight because I take personal responsibility for my flight. I am accountable for my flight. It is a reflection of my work.



Is it my flight? Is it your aircraft – NO not really it’s the companies, but during that moment in time of “operational control” it is in a sense ours.



>>>>>>



2 quotes from the Dispatcher Job Description:

“He/She has joint responsibility with the captain for the safety and operational control of flights under his/her guidance. “

“He/She authorizes, regulates and controls commercial airline flights according to government and company regulations to expedite and ensure safety of flight.”

http://www.dispatcher.org/cmt.php?id=100015

>>>>>>

If I do a flight plan and release sign off on it and send it out it reflects my work ethic. So when the Cpt. calls up and asks for a fuel load of 60.0 instead of my 58.0 Ill ask why. I have taken all data available to me and come up with what I considered a safe fuel load. I ask why because I want to know what I missed.

At times Ill get the answer “Because I want it”. – Frankly that burns me up. Reminds me of when you are a kid and your parents say “because I said so”. I don’t need nor want excuses I just want to know why. Are my forecast winds off today? Did I miss a gauge MEL? Did ATC say anything about gate holds, ground stops? In the end the Cpt. will get the fuel so long as it doesn’t bust the weights.

>>>>>>>

Have I ever messed up? Dam right I have. I made a mistake on an international flight once that the Captain wrote me up on. I was shown what I did and admitted I was wrong. Frankly I still know the Captain to this day and respect him for it.

>>>>>>>

surplus1 –

What is your thoughts of CRM/DRM ?