To 121 pilots from a dispatcher...

[amaineiac]

RVSM,

It isn't that easy here. This place is a classic "us against them" operation. It's a constant p!ssing contest between the PIC's and the dispatchers - they yell, moan and complain constantly. We get to deal with it daily on the phones.

Don't mean to whine about it but this place is a completely different scenario every day.

Let me guess, you work for AMR.

 

[405]

As usual

I am guilty of sending a hot headed response to a hot headed pilot who was disgruntled before he left his hub due to something completely out of my control. The bullet is out of the gun. Nothing can be done now.

This dispatcher is wrong on all counts as determined by the pilots, as usual. Back to the question.

The original question was: If this PIC didn't think he had enough fuel for the intended operation, why didn't PIC call and solve the problem with me?

I don't want to hear a bunch of "I don't trust our dispatchers" and "I have to call Flight Watch" like you've all been posting. That's your company and you need to solve that junk with your management if you have any management.

I respect the pilots at my company. It's a mutual respect scenario though. If I get a cool headed pilot on the phone who's willing to work as a team, things go much better. If I get some lunatic yelling at me about something I have no control over, I lose a whole lot of respect for that individual almost immediately.

What one regional did was require all captains going thru their initial equipment upgrade to spend an ENTIRE shift in with a dispatcher so the captain can see what it all entails, and get the story on the other side of the mic - after all, we're required by law (121.547) to jumpseat and see your side of the ops coin, no reason you cant do the same. Most captains, especially the younger ones, were usually impresed with all the info we have at our fingertips.

I have been screaming for this for five years now. Make it a recurrent training requirement.

 

[minitour]

...The original question was: If this PIC didn't think he had enough fuel for the intended operation, why didn't PIC call and solve the problem with me?

well...the PIC has the final authority over the flight...

If he doesn't have enough fuel, he can me one of two decisions.
1. Do something to get more.
2. Do nothing to get more.

One makes sense, the other doesn't.

I can't imagine looking at the situation and going, "you know, I don't have enough gas for this flight........you ready to go?"

That's just my opinion though...and it's not worth much since I'm still in the 91 world...well...141/61 if you want to split hairs. But you know what I mean.

-mini

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am guilty of sending a hot headed response to a hot headed pilot who was disgruntled before he left his hub due to something completely out of my control.

The original question was: If this PIC didn't think he had enough fuel for the intended operation, why didn't PIC call and solve the problem with me?

Taxi fuel during ground de-icing operations is within your control. Just look at the weather - if the temperature is around 0C and there is precip... If other flights have been taking 1 hour to get off the ground...

Besides the guy wrote and said he was over - fueled. Seems like the problem took care of itself and he did keep you in the loop, as well as providing you advice for the next flight.

But to make you feel better I guess he could have called and got your permission for the fuel already on the airplane. Or, if you need to feel really important, he could have de-fueled, called you, re-fueled, then went to the hotel because everyone would have timed out before de-icing was complete.

Just get over it dude.

 

[CA1900]

What one regional did was require all captains going thru their initial equipment upgrade to spend an ENTIRE shift in with a dispatcher so the captain can see what it all entails, and get the story on the other side of the mic - after all, we're required by law (121.547) to jumpseat and see your side of the ops coin, no reason you cant do the same.

I think that's a great idea.

On those same lines, I'd like to see the dispatchers and crew schedulers at my airline spend MY entire 3-day shift with ME. Not one round-trip on a sunny day once a year. No.

I want them flying 6 legs, pulling into Buffalo at 10:30 at night for our scheduled 9:00 arrival. I want them waking up at 5:15 to get on the 6am van because the 6:30 van will get us there too late for the 6:40 reduced-rest show time, because as I'm sure you know, the 20-minute van rides are part of our "rest." Then sit on a 12-degree airplane for half an hour waiting for a power cart so you can finally do your morning checks.

Then I want them shadowing me for my second 15-hour shift with a 4-hour break in BFE with no food to be found anywhere, no place to rest other than seats in the boarding area, and no pay until we get back to an airplane. Of course they'll get the same generous $5 on per-diem I get for what amount to half of their usual shift. That'll take care of the slim jims from the vending machine that'll have to count as lunch.

Maybe after the third day of that you'll understand why pilots get a little frustrated on their last leg home after 3 continuous days of nothing but being at work and sleeping at a hotel, finding that not enough fuel was ordered. Yeah, he was a hot head. But you try a schedule like that, week after week, and see if you don't get a little loopy. It may be legal on paper, but it's very taxing on the body and the mind.

Cut us a little slack and let it go; I'm sure most of us will do the same for you guys when you get fried on a bad-weather day. Most of us see this all as a team effort on both sides of the table.

 

[surplus1]

As an "outsider" what I see in this thread is essentially a pi_sing contest betweeen some jDX's (junior dispatchers) and some PIC's.

When there's an experienced DX at the table and a Captain (not a PIC) in the airplane, these pi_sing contests just don't happen.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that and that's OK. The entire discourse strikes me as "amateur hour". Sort of like FOX "News" journalism = junk talk.

 

[405]

Done

Surplus,

You're right. It does seem like an amateur hour now. All I wanted was an answer to a question. I've already admitted that I could have handled the situation in a different way and I sure as he!! know better than to ask a question on here now because I will never be right.

Your junior dispatcher comment may hold true depending on your definition of "junior". No, I didn't work for Eastern or Braniff for 375 years before I got my job now. Also understand, most of the captains I work with are pretty green.

Taxi fuel during ground de-icing operations is within your control. Just look at the weather - if the temperature is around 0C and there is precip... If other flights have been taking 1 hour to get off the ground...

The temp was way low but there was no precip. Crew had 600 lbs extra fuel for any delays with whatever their overfuel was.

I'm done with this thread.

 

[FracCapt]

Then I want them shadowing me for my second 15-hour shift with a 4-hour break in BFE with no food to be found anywhere, no place to rest other than seats in the boarding area, and no pay until we get back to an airplane. Of course they'll get the same generous $5 on per-diem I get for what amount to half of their usual shift. That'll take care of the slim jims from the vending machine that'll have to count as lunch.

I just had a GREAT marketing idea for airline management! You can SELL slots in the right seat of regional aircraft like yours....and market it as a DIET!

 

[English]

Are you the famous clickmaster?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=419&item=6502466237&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

 

[CA1900]

I just had a GREAT marketing idea for airline management! You can SELL slots in the right seat of regional aircraft like yours....and market it as a DIET!

Heh... already been done! Except Gulfstream markets it as "training."

 

[FracCapt]

Heh... already been done! Except Gulfstream markets it as "training."

That's what I was hinting at....the DIET industry is a whole lot bigger in the US than the AVIATION WHORE industry!

 

[Best on a Camel]

I got this ACARS message from a crew tonight:

HEY DISPATCHERS PUT YOUR THINKING CAPS ON. AH (location) COLD DEICE MAYBE WE SHOULD GIVE EM GAS. LUCKILY THEY OVER FUELED US

My response:

YOU'RE RIGHT. GOOD THING THEY OVERFUELED YOU. IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU HAVE ENOUGH FUEL WHY DON'T YOU CALL ME AND ASK FOR MORE BEFORE YOU SIGN THE RELEASE. JOINT RESPONSIBILITY. REMEMBER?

Am I wrong here? If you, as PIC, don't think you have enough fuel for the intended operation would you call dispatch and request more fuel or would you just b!tch at dispatch as this "captain" did?

If you don't know this already, we can't accurately plan for taxi times. We can't predict taxi and deicing times or delays to the minute.

Yes, you're right. Why should you be expected to do your job and think? The pilots will do it for you. You just sit there and let the computer spit out a generic flight plan. "Yea, they will need to de-ice but I'm gonna give them the standard taxi gas, because otherwise I would have to change the paperwork."

If there's a problem they'll catch it and call. Don't bother me I'm playing online yatzee. I watch people like you on the dispatch floor and realize why so many pilots have a low opinion of dispatchers.

 

[Best on a Camel]

When snow removal/de-icing ops are in progress, I always double whatever the standard taxi time is as calculated by the flight planning system; more if I have a verifiable means to determine what the actual out-to-off delay is. For the Bornemann/SABRE system, you can type either a time value in the TXIO box on the FPCFP screen, preceded by a plus (eg, +30 for 30 minute taxi time), or an actual amount of taxi fuel. If that wasnt covered during your OJI, get with your training department and get it covered! If your system can only do the standard, you need a new system...

What one regional did was require all captains going thru their initial equipment upgrade to spend an ENTIRE shift in with a dispatcher so the captain can see what it all entails, and get the story on the other side of the mic - after all, we're required by law (121.547) to jumpseat and see your side of the ops coin, no reason you cant do the same. Most captains, especially the younger ones, were usually impresed with all the info we have at our fingertips.

After all, when I build a specific reroute for TSRA, you take a center offered direct right into the line of level 5, and then call us asking where's it clear, and by the way were near min fuel now with all the deviating - if the DX is watching, he can see it all taking place beforehand, and start to come up with a plan before he gets that call from Atlanta Radio - and maybe nudge you back on his originally intended route.

Now there's the difference between a guy who knows his job and one who doesn't.

 

[ac_dispatcher]

My question to all Pilots,

What does the term "joint authority" mean to you as PIC?


Frankly to be honest I have had a Cpt. ask (once) to do something that was unsafe in my opinion. Even with his "final responsibility" he got nothing from me. If I don’t get a warm - n- fuzzy, the Cpt. gets nothing from me. That goes both ways - from the Cpt and the Company.

I am the first line of defense from an accident or incident.

Fact of the matter is this: The PIC deals with his one flight at that time. I currently have about 250 aircraft under my release authority. Ill push out as many as 70 releases a shift. There is no defined limit to the amount I can be tasked with. Has anyone had a limit set by their FSDO or Company? Ive never seen it. That being said it DOES NOT let me off. If there is a change to my release conditions I REQUIRE a call. I have a multitude of information at my hands that the PIC may not have.


"joint authority" to me:

I must agree to the conditions set forth in the release and all conditions during the flights "Operational Control". If not take my name off and find another Dispatcher. If the PIC can self release more power to him (her).

-ac

 

[ac_dispatcher]

minitour -

well...the PIC has the final authority over the flight...

If he doesn't have enough fuel, he can me one of two decisions.
1. Do something to get more.
2. Do nothing to get more.

One makes sense, the other doesn't.

Getting more fuel makes sense.

Calling your Dispatcher who is "Jointly Responsible" for the flight to amend the release makes just as much sense.

 

[surplus1]

My answer, Not to all dispatchers but to YOU.

Your post has a general "tone" that will meet with resistance from seasoned captains. I know you didn't ask but I'll tell you anyway; take the chip off your shoulder.

Your "attitude" is best reflected in you last statement on "joint authority". While technically correct, it would get you nowhere with me or any other experienced captain that I know. Perhaps the captain cannot "self release" but guess what buddy, you can't fly. If what you want to do is play some sort of silly game and get yourself on a power trip I guarantee you it will fizzle in a heartbeat and you'll be the one that winds up like a flat beer; useless.

Pump out a "release" that isn't perfect or one that I don't like and I'll just refuse to sign it. In short, you will "require" nothing. Either we work together as a team or you won't work at all. The only "warm-and-fuzzy" you'll get is the requirement that you explain your negative attitude, with ever-increasing frequency. Start that nonsense and in short order every single release that comes from your desk will be challenged. Fuel orders will be changed, routings will be questioned, notams had better be up to date and so will the wx you provide. Remember, we outnumber you at a ratio of about 100:1, often more. When you can't get anybody to accept your original "releases", it won't be too long before you're so bogged down that the only thing you'll have time for is sending out your resume.

Like you said, I must agree to accept your release and also to accept any changes you propose while enroute. Remember that word, "propose". You "direct" nothing and you will "require" nothing. We're not in the military and you don't give "orders". If you won't accept what I ask for guess what; the airplane will NOT fall out of the sky. It will keep right on trucking in the direction that I choose to point it. Want to "take your name off the release, go ahead. You can sit there and twiddle your thumbs all day long if you choose. It won't take too long before the Company figures out which one of us is useless.

My guess is you've been "spoiled" because you're dealing with a bunch of kids that you think you can intimidate. I suggest you don't try that crap with a group of seasoned captains for if you do, your "operational control" will cease to exist. Every good Captain needs ONE good Dispatcher. Every good Dispatcher needs 100 good Captains. Get the message?

Does that mean you should agree to something you think is unsafe? Of course NOT! No professional Dispatcher should ever do that, and no professional Captain will ever ask you to.

A wise man picks the fights he can win. Get off the power trip and we'll both do our jobs. It's a lot easier.

My question to all Pilots,

What does the term "joint authority" mean to you as PIC?


Frankly to be honest I have had a Cpt. ask (once) to do something that was unsafe in my opinion. Even with his "final responsibility" he got nothing from me. If I don’t get a warm - n- fuzzy, the Cpt. gets nothing from me. That goes both ways - from the Cpt and the Company.

I am the first line of defense from an accident or incident.

Fact of the matter is this: The PIC deals with his one flight at that time. I currently have about 250 aircraft under my release authority. Ill push out as many as 70 releases a shift. There is no defined limit to the amount I can be tasked with. Has anyone had a limit set by their FSDO or Company? Ive never seen it. That being said it DOES NOT let me off. If there is a change to my release conditions I REQUIRE a call. I have a multitude of information at my hands that the PIC may not have.


"joint authority" to me:

I must agree to the conditions set forth in the release and all conditions during the flights "Operational Control". If not take my name off and find another Dispatcher. If the PIC can self release more power to him (her).

-ac

 

[ac_dispatcher]

Im sorry you think Im on some sort of power trip here. Im not.

To quote myself:

"Even with his "final responsibility" he got nothing from me. If I don’t get a warm - n- fuzzy, the Cpt. gets nothing from me. That goes both ways - from the Cpt and the Company."

I aggree that I failed to add that in most cases its from the company. If I dont aggree with what the company wants "The Cpt get nothing from me" still goes.

I dont think Im on a power trip I just take my job very seriously. as stated:

" I am the first line of defense from an accident or incident."

>>>>>
Pump out a "release" that isn't perfect or one that I don't like and I'll just refuse to sign it.
I dont expect you to. Its called an amendment

"If there is a change to my release conditions I REQUIRE a call"
Your right I do require a call. Why - because if my paperwork doesnt match yours and the FAA checks it out we BOTH could be in trouble.

Start that nonsense and in short order every single release that comes from your desk will be challenged. Fuel orders will be changed, routings will be questioned, notams had better be up to date and so will the wx you provide. Remember, we outnumber you at a ratio of about 100:1, often more. When you can't get anybody to accept your original "releases", it won't be too long before you're so bogged down that the only thing you'll have time for is sending out your resume.

When the chief Pilot, DO, and Director of Dispatch checks over all data to wonder why the flight was late what will they find? If the release is within the standard of the Regs and company SOP the dispatcher will not need his resume sent out. Not saying the Captain will as well.

>>>>>>>
The common appearance is Dispatch vrs Captain.

In a lot of cases the company will come out with a "Policy" and expect the DXR to enforce it. Thus adding flames to that fire.

Maybe this thread has fired me up a bit. Ill admit that.


Honestly can you please answer my question:

What does the term "joint authority" mean to you as CPT?

 

[Best on a Camel]

" I am the first line of defense from an accident or incident."

Can you elaborate? Not being a smart@ss just curious what you think would be included in this.

 

[ac_dispatcher]

No problem.

I start a flight up to 4-6 hours prior to departure. I’m looking for anything that would put my flight at risk - weather, weight, airport conditions, aircraft condition.

I’m usually the first to look at the flight for irregularities. I point out or stop things before the Cpt needs to get involved.

 

[ac_dispatcher]

Let me grab my soapbox here:



I take MY flights to a personal level. Captains refer to the aircraft as “their aircraft”



Well I call it “My Flight”



I call it my flight because I take personal responsibility for my flight. I am accountable for my flight. It is a reflection of my work.



Is it my flight? Is it your aircraft – NO not really it’s the companies, but during that moment in time of “operational control” it is in a sense ours.



>>>>>>



2 quotes from the Dispatcher Job Description:

“He/She has joint responsibility with the captain for the safety and operational control of flights under his/her guidance. “

“He/She authorizes, regulates and controls commercial airline flights according to government and company regulations to expedite and ensure safety of flight.”

http://www.dispatcher.org/cmt.php?id=100015

>>>>>>

If I do a flight plan and release sign off on it and send it out it reflects my work ethic. So when the Cpt. calls up and asks for a fuel load of 60.0 instead of my 58.0 Ill ask why. I have taken all data available to me and come up with what I considered a safe fuel load. I ask why because I want to know what I missed.

At times Ill get the answer “Because I want it”. – Frankly that burns me up. Reminds me of when you are a kid and your parents say “because I said so”. I don’t need nor want excuses I just want to know why. Are my forecast winds off today? Did I miss a gauge MEL? Did ATC say anything about gate holds, ground stops? In the end the Cpt. will get the fuel so long as it doesn’t bust the weights.

>>>>>>>

Have I ever messed up? Dam right I have. I made a mistake on an international flight once that the Captain wrote me up on. I was shown what I did and admitted I was wrong. Frankly I still know the Captain to this day and respect him for it.

>>>>>>>

surplus1 –

What is your thoughts of CRM/DRM ?

 

[surplus1]

Honestly can you please answer my question:

What does the term "joint authority" mean to you as CPT?

I will try with sincerity.

Simply put it means we share the responsibility for the safe operation of the flight and must agree on the relevant decisions.

It does NOT mean that I "control" you or that you control me (which is what you appear to be saying). We work together based on the concept that "two heads are better than one." (A concept that is not always correct).

There are lots of blacks-and-whites in the rule books. In the real world things are mostly gray. It just happens that a dispatcher's world has a much more limited scope than a pilot's world. That's just reality and has nothing to do with superiority. This should not be a struggle to see who will be "king of the hill".

In the example of fuel load that you chose to select, your scope is limited to agreement on minimum fuel. If I feel I need more fuel, for whatever reason, it is not logical for you to deny it merely because it does match your min fuel calculations or your computer generated flight plan. I know what my maximum weights are and will not exceed them. Of course I will "tell" you that I'm taking on more fuel and most probably why but I won't be asking for your permission. If you attempt to refuse it merely because it doesn't match your idea of what you think I need, that's nonsense. If it turns out that the fuel I think I should have would exceed weight limits, then I will off-load cargo or passengers to get the fuel I need and remain within the limits. That is not your decision nor is it your authority. Your "authority" is limited to "agreeing" that I don't leave with less than the minimum, which it is our joint responsibility to see that I have.

Another example you gave relates to MEL items (or CDL). Again, you have no real "authority" in this area. You have a responsibility to include those known items so that I am informed of what you know but, it is both my responsibility and my authority to reject the aircraft if I don't feel it should be operated today with that MEL item. That is so regardless of whether or not you think its OK or you don't. I do not require or need your "approval" to make that decision, nor will I ask for it.

In the event of a diversion, as another example, when you see what you feel is a need for me to divert, you inform me. If I agree, I will divert to the location that you recommend. If I don't feel I can agree with your recommendation, I won't be arguing with you, I'll just inform you where we are going and when we expect to get there. When I see a need to divert, I will chose the location and inform you of my intent. If you agree, fine. If you do not agree, you recommend a different alternate. I might go along with that or I might not. If I don't, the aircraft will go to the destination of my choice, regardless of your "authority" or "agreement". You will be informed of the decision I have made, after which you may do whatever you think best.

If you are a "good" dispatcher you're worth your weight in gold. I will recognize that in short order and you will be thanked for your much needed assistance. At the same time you must understand that I will never relinquish command of the aircraft to any dispatcher, or for that matter to any CP or DO. Your scope does not include the authority to overrule my decisions. If and when the CP or the DO decides to overrule my decisions as captain, if the aircraft is on the ground, they will be invited to exercise the privilege of their own certificate and assume command. I will exit stage left. If the aircraft is already in flight, they can punt and we'll deal with it when I get back to base. If they want to discuss it (on the ground) and convince me, I will listen respectfully but the decision will be mine alone. There is no case that I can think of in which your "rules" automaticall surpercede my rules. In most cases our "rules" (regs.) are the same.

As a dispatcher, while the aircraft is on the ground, the only "enforcement" available to you is denial of a release. That is the limit of your authority, period. Think long and hard as to the reasons for which you make that decision. The fact that you don't think I need more fuel, ain't good enough. You're more than welcome to ask me why I want more and if its me personally, you won't have to ask because I'll tell you. If you respond with "NO", I guarantee you that the extra fuel will be on board before that airplane departs with me in the cockpit. You're welcome to call the CP if you wish but that will change absolutely nothing. Professionals do not make such decisions arbitrarily. If you got an answer of "Because I wan't it" that's immature, but there's probably another side to that story.

As I tried to tell you in the previous post, this is not a game. I respect your position, I think it's necessary, and I will always treat you like the professional you are supposed to be until you prove that you aren't. The instant you attempt to take command of the flight your switch will be moved to the OFF position. If you deny a release arbitrarily then you'll have to deal with the outcome as you see fit.

These are all extreme situations and they will not occur unless one of us is exercising his a$$hole factor on that day. I expect you to take pride in your work and to do a good job. I don't mind if you're assertive as long as your give the same respect that you expect in return. However, your "authority" ends where mine begins, and that's the aircraft's entrance door. Respect is not something that either one of us is "entitled" to, it must be earned. You begin by respecting yourself and follow up by treating others as you would like to be treated.

You give me the impression that you're a relatively "new" dispatcher recently out of school. If that is the case, I understand your concerns even if I'm not happy about how you write them down. If that is not the case and you are seasoned, then I do think you're on a power trip that you can't possibly win.

Now all that long winded explanation is the CRM/DRM. Unfortunately in the real world, I seldom have the time to go over all of that. In the final analysis you must come to understand that, in the real world, no respectable airline is going to undermine the authority of its Captains in favor of the authority of its Dispatchers. IF you decide to force push to shove you may win one or two battles but, you will lose the war.

I hope that meets your approval and we can each avoid the emphasis on our respective "authority" or lack thereof. That's better CRM/DRM than a contest.

Your willingness to discuss the issues is much appreciated.

 

[ac_dispatcher]

surplus1 -​

your post had great effort and thought into it. Thank You. I will attempt to respond likewise.
​

From reading your postings you first come across to me as a Captain with a GOD complex.​

--Let it be known that is NOT meant as a flame its just a comment based off how your postings came across to me.​

​

You give me the impression that you're a relatively "new" dispatcher recently out of school.

​

​

No sir - my DXR license is dated in the 1990's and my ATC is dated in the 80's.

Simply put it means we share the responsibility for the safe operation of the flight and must agree on the relevant decisions.​

​

But for the rest of the post attitude is “you have no real "authority" in this area.” and fail to include anything about agreement.

The end of your post I caught this:​

we can each avoid the emphasis on our respective "authority" or lack thereof.​

Is it authority we are talking about or is it better to say concurrence?​

​

There are lots of blacks-and-whites in the rule books. In the real world things are mostly gray. It just happens that a dispatcher's world has a much more limited scope than a pilot's world.

​

​

You know I agree with you. I live in a box at work. I have every manual and terminal access you could imagine. The stream of data at my fingertips is staggering. But for the most part Dispatch is black-n-white. It takes a good Captain to take the time to explain what is going on to make a great Dispatcher.
​

​

In the example of fuel load that you chose to select, your scope is limited to agreement on minimum fuel. ..... Of course I will "tell" you that I'm taking on more fuel and most probably why but I won't be asking for your permission

​

​

Actually the fuel load I gave was based off current and forecast conditions, and holding time table charts for that airport. I "REQUIRED" him to advise me of the fact for paperwork and performance concerns. I will admit the term "REQUIRED" may have been harsh. You know the maximum weights and will not exceed them - Sorry that has not been the case in the past with me with some Captains Ive dealt with. If you "Tell" me you are taking more fuel and don't state why I will ask you why. If I don't agree with the reason I will tell you so and why.
​

Another example you gave relates to MEL items (or CDL). Again, you have no real "authority" in this area. .... I do not require or need your "approval" to make that decision, nor will I ask for it.​

I must disagree with you here. It is my responsibility to include MEL/CDL items but it is also my responsibility to stop all nogo items prior to releasing the flight. That is one of the items that is REQUIRED to be checked by the DXR. Frankly you may never know I hit the nogo button. It is my responsibility to catch the nogo item a require it to be fixed or the plane swapped for a capable one. The MEL/CDL list IS part of the "Joint Authority".
​

​

In the event of a diversion, as another example, when you see what you feel is a need for me to divert, you inform me. If I agree, I will divert to the location that you recommend. If I don't feel I can agree with your recommendation, I won't be arguing with you, I'll just inform you where we are going and when we expect to get there.....regardless of your "authority" or "agreement". You will be informed of the decision I have made, after which you may do whatever you think best.​

​

​

I have never told a Captain where to go (location on a map that is). If a flight is requested by the powers that be for you to divert I am the first stop. I don't need to call you up so you can tell me that the only runway is closed or that you are WAY overweight for that runway. If I agree that the request meets all Regs and guidelines I will THEN call you up and ask you your concurrence. If you say no I will have options at the ready. I will ask why, not because I doubt the Captain - it goes back to the concept of "what have I missed." The concurrence is not "authority" or "agreement" - it is because if an amendment or Re-Release is needed "concurrence" (Joint Authority) must occur.​

​

If you are a "good" dispatcher you're worth your weight in gold. I will recognize that in short order and you will be thanked for your much needed assistance.
​

​

​

You guys never know how much a "Thank You" means to the Dispatcher. Even more a letter to your CP or DO. As of command - Its all yours I'm scared to death of flying (remember I was an ATC). My scope does not have the ability to "overrule" just non concurrence.​

​

As a dispatcher, while the aircraft is on the ground, the only "enforcement" available to you is denial of a release.​

​

​

True. If I dont agree the flight is legal and safe the release will not have my name on it.​

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You're more than welcome to ask me why I want more and if its me personally, you won't have to ask because I'll tell you.​

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I would thank you for telling me. To by very frank you would be shocked at the number of times the answer is "Because I want more" or "Its not MY money thats being wasted"​

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If you respond with "NO", I guarantee you that the extra fuel will be on board before that airplane departs with me in the cockpit​

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Thats your call. If my numbers said no and you rolled down the runway - Good Luck.
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As I tried to tell you in the previous post, this is not a game. I respect your position, I think it's necessary, and I will always treat you like the professional you are supposed to be until you prove that you aren't.
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I tried to convey that I take my work personally. I call them "My Flights" because I have a responsibility to conduct myself with due diligence. Im sorry based from what Ive read I don't agree that you respect my position. Seems the common thought on the Dispatcher is its a "Necessary Evil". You give the appearance to me that a good dispatcher does not question you. Hence my CRM question.​

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These are all extreme situations and they will not occur unless one of us is exercising his a$$hole factor on that day.​

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Been there, done that ​

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Now all that long winded explanation is the CRM/DRM. Unfortunately in the real world,....​

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True about the Company. I asked about the CRM because I want to know what your response would be if a Dispatcher told you he/she thought you were wrong. Are you able to take a step back and reevaluate your decision? Are you able to admit you could be wrong?​

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However, your "authority" ends where mine begins, and that's the aircraft's entrance door.

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Was that the only time in your thread you talked about my authority?
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Let me get your take on this if I may:​

The Captain and Dispatcher must concur on all aspects of the Release. That is one of the major parts of "Operational Control".

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Once the "Joint Authority" concurrence has taken place its the Captains final authority on all the phases off the flight conducted under his command that are not covered by the release. If an event takes place that requires the release to be amended then "Joint Authority" concurrence must again take place.​

When you land your release and mine should look identical. If something changed you have the time and my initials to prove that concurrence was completed.​

When you hit VR - I then go into Flight Follow mode. Until the need for an amendment arises.

Again my reply is NOT ment as a flame. So please no not take it as such.

General comment:
The Dispatcher is NOT in place to serve the Captain. He/She works TOGETHER with the Captain under their Joint Authrity (Operational Control) for a safe operation.
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I got this ACARS message from a crew tonight:
Am I wrong here? If you, as PIC, don't think you have enough fuel for the intended operation would you call dispatch and request more fuel or would you just b!tch at dispatch as this "captain" did?

If you don't know this already, we can't accurately plan for taxi times. We can't predict taxi and deicing times or delays to the minute.

"Request more fuel?" As PIC, you put on the fiuel you need and then tell dispatch. It's your a$$ on the line.