To 121 pilots from a dispatcher...

[rvsm410]

Well you got to start somewhere, if you have coordinators, or your managers, etc...it needs to be kept in house and fixed....its a conditioning th pilots need to go through...depends on the operational age of the pilots...if they are young and have been flying 91 and 135 stuff all their life, this being there first 121 gig means alot of changes...we do the work they once did...now we can be perceived as a threat to their ego, or seem insulting to them....the facts are what they are, the REGs are clear and the management must fix the problem...if anything happens a full investigation occurs and this problem could be listed as a main problem in the reports, which could include fines and actions against the certificate.....

Again, I would stress that you are there to take the load off the crews and there to help make there flights safe and provide them assitance from A- to Z they should use all their resources....especially dispatch....

Chip away little at a time, make your releases special and the crews confident in your abilities to help and be ahead of the game....

RVSM,

It isn't that easy here. This place is a classic "us against them" operation. It's a constant p!ssing contest between the PIC's and the dispatchers - they yell, moan and complain constantly. We get to deal with it daily on the phones.

Don't mean to whine about it but this place is a completely different scenario every day.

 

[DX Rick]

Get your own scores. And don't call me to find your sh!t you've left on your last airplane. I'm not ESPN and I'm not Lost and Found. You shaddup, biotch.

And don't call me because you forgot your ankle bracelet in the hotel room, and HAVE to have it back.

Last night I got a this call:

f/a : I'm in the crew lot, and my car is stuck in the snow. I need someone to dig me out.

Me: Did you try rocking your car back and forth to get it out?

f/a: No, I'll try it and give you a call back in 5 minutes.

Never heard back.

 

[Simon Says]

No offense 405 but I have had enough with our dispatchers at Mesaba. When I need wx enroute, I call flightwatch. When I need fuel burn, I figure it out myself, and when I need to divert I turn the airplane where I need to go, get the airplane in order, and last of all TELL dispatch where I am going.

I dont know if it is their fault for not being trained or understaffed, but they just are of no help at all. I have had many instances where I needed them in time critical situations (mostly running out of gas and need a diversion airport) and they just don't, won't, or can't make a decision. Sorry dude.

By the way if I want extra gas (and in our airplane weight is never an issue) I walk out to the fueler and tell him how much gas I want. Dispatch never knows that I just stepped on their toes. So it is all good.

 

[~~~^~~~]

405...

IMHO, your message was out of line. Yes, we know you have joint dispatch authority and many of us really are not impressed.

There is a difference between "joint authority" and "final responsibility."

You were not out on the ramp at age 16 washing airplanes for the opportunity to type in a release, you did not run out of money and sell your car at age 18 to buy a new computer, you did not d@mn near kill yourself a couple of times in some junky Cessna checking weather, you did not load boxes in a Baron flying through the ice to get more dispatch experience under your belt - all so you could get your dream job of Dispatching in Pt. 121 operations someday.

A good dispatcher, the ones I respect, actually check the NOTAMS and put in a comment for something that affects our operations. As for the others - I've been sent to airports with NO weather reporting capability ( illegal under our ops specs at the time ), I've been filed over out of service navaids, I've seen the wrong airplane number on an airplane which was already loaded ( no thank you, I will not pencil in that change ) and of course the usual litany of lost MEL's that never got in the system.

A dispatcher is an important tool ( just as a pilot is ) to keep an airline operating safely and on time. A dispatch release is a flight planning tool, someone to run the numbers so that I don't have to. But that is about it. Let the computers go down and lets see how many flights get dispatched.... - Yet somehow with my phone and armed with a mastery of third grade match I can come up with a "verbal release" that I can read ( or fax ) to a Dispatcher so they can go " Ah Huh, OK." I get myself and my crew home

Any Captain worth the title knows not to rely on his Dispatcher. When an airline gets caught breaking a regulation and the FAA must do something - the airline will always offer the Captain as the sacrifice to keep the airline's certificate clean. That is the reason the Captain exists, the reason they get paid about 1/3 more money is because they shoulder the real responsibility - not just for safety, but to provide the airline with someone to pin the Certification responsibility on.

So, it is the Captain's a$$ on the line. Realize your role. All the employees in an airline serve a supporting role to the customer. Captains get cranky when the heat gets turned up, like bad weather.

HEY DISPATCHERS PUT YOUR THINKING CAPS ON. AH (location) COLD DEICE MAYBE WE SHOULD GIVE EM GAS. LUCKILY THEY OVER FUELED US

This Captain might be a smarty pants, but you know, he is right. An experienced dispatcher does realize that de-ice operations require extra taxi fuel. Take your lesson and go on. All your smart reply did is degrade the Captains already diminished opinion of a particular dispatcher. It is harsh, but I guy who can not take a lesson and learn from his errors only illustrates his stupidity when he gets mad about it. Hey, I've been there and after all of these years I now at least know to keep my mouth shut and learn.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you don't know this already, we can't accurately plan for taxi times. We can't predict taxi and deicing times or delays to the minute.

Well, yes, you can. Our airline looks at the results of past operations and the flow of the airport at certain times of day. When you see precip and temps from 02/M05, SN, DZ, RA, SN, SP, or PWINO, throw an extra 500 lbs on board, especially if it does not bump revenue. If it is an airport south of Kentucky where they don't know how to deal with winter weather, double it.

Problem solved

 

[NJA Capt]

I got this ACARS message from a crew tonight:

Am I wrong here? If you, as PIC, don't think you have enough fuel for the intended operation would you call dispatch and request more fuel or would you just b!tch at dispatch as this "captain" did?

If you don't know this already, we can't accurately plan for taxi times. We can't predict taxi and deicing times or delays to the minute.

405,
I think you missed the point entirely and then sent a smart-mouthed reply. I would iterpret it to mean the outstation did not have "hot" deicing ability. Cold deicing fluid is next to worthless and would take a considerable amount of time to accomplish. Which in turn would burn more fuel either waiting for his turn in line, or waiting for the fluid to heat up.

If your not sure what he meant, try asking him to clarify.

 

[rvsm410]

Many of us DX are pilots as well!

405...

IMHO, your message was out of line. Yes, we know you have joint dispatch authority and many of us really are not impressed.


There is a difference between "joint authority" and "final responsibility."

You were not out on the ramp at age 16 washing airplanes for the opportunity to type in a release, you did not run out of money and sell your car at age 18 to buy a new computer, you did not d@mn near kill yourself a couple of times in some junky Cessna checking weather, you did not load boxes in a Baron flying through the ice to get more dispatch experience under your belt - all so you could get your dream job of Dispatching in Pt. 121 operations someday.

Maybe you can take the tunnel vision glasses off for a minute and be reminded that many of us in dispatch are pilots ourselves, some are former 121 pilots that lost medicals...not everyone in dispatch offices are zero time pilots/aviators...

I for one did my time on the ramps, freezing my A$$ offloading airplanes etc...just like you did! My dreams of professional flying did not materialize like yours did. But I have enough SEL IFR flying to know what your faced with, trust me, been there done that!


“A good dispatcher, the ones I respect, actually check the NOTAMS and put in a comment for something that affects our operations. As for the others - I've been sent to airports with NO weather reporting capability ( illegal under our ops specs at the time ), I've been filed over out of service navaids, I've seen the wrong airplane number on an airplane which was already loaded ( no thank you, I will not pencil in that change ) and of course the usual litany of lost MEL's that never got in the system.”


It sounds like your airline needs a shift in thinking and training.....though some DX desks are overloaded with banks of releases to do, time crunch causes them to use the canned flight routing in the system, not an excuse for not looking at the Notams and fixing the flt plan...

“A dispatcher is an important tool ( just as a pilot is ) to keep an airline operating safely and on time. A dispatch release is a flight planning tool, someone to run the numbers so that I don't have to. But that is about it. Let the computers go down and lets see how many flights get dispatched.... - Yet somehow with my phone and armed with a mastery of third grade match I can come up with a "verbal release" that I can read ( or fax ) to a Dispatcher so they can go " Ah Huh, OK." I get myself and my crew home ”


Now in all fairness here most dispatch office don’t have approval to use anything more than the normal flt planning systems, if they go down...then oh well, we cant do a thing in most cases...sure I could call DUATS and file a IFR plan for you, program the performance numbers in the system, plan the route, and file with ATC....but its not legal per the ops spec.....This has happened at many regional airlines...I believe Dx offices should have a backup plan to cut releases in this event and it should be practiced as part of recurrent training...but that’s just me....


“Any Captain worth the title knows not to rely on his Dispatcher. When an airline gets caught breaking a regulation and the FAA must do something - the airline will always offer the Captain as the sacrifice to keep the airline's certificate clean. That is the reason the Captain exists, the reason they get paid about 1/3 more money is because they shoulder the real responsibility - not just for safety, but to provide the airline with someone to pin the Certification responsibility on.”


No argument here, you are the final say in what happens to that aircraft once it leave the ground!....BUT, don’t think your licenses is the only one to be sacrificed in the end.....not true!


“This Captain might be a smarty pants, but you know, he is right. An experienced dispatcher does realize that de-ice operations require extra taxi fuel. Take your lesson and go on. All your smart reply did is degrade the Captains already diminished opinion of a particular dispatcher. It is harsh, but I guy who can not take a lesson and learn from his errors only illustrates his stupidity when he gets mad about it. Hey, I've been there and after all of these years I now at least know to keep my mouth shut and learn.”


I would agree once again with you, the DX should add extra fuel for know taxi delays outside of the "canned" taxi times...more training and attention to detail may be needed here...but lets try to respect each other a little bit more here, make suggestions to each other, or through channels....its all about safety and the company bottom line.....


Our "Role" is quite well written in the regs....Dispatchers are Airmen just like you, and many of us are Pilots too!

On a side note, I have spent allot of time Cockpit J/S'ing, much more than the 5 hours required, asking our flt crews questions that will make me a better and more effective dispatcher for THEM...I would like to see the crews do the same with us and spend a day by our side and see what we are asked to do....everyday. Just a thought...have a good day!

 

[saabcaptain]

And don't call me because you forgot your ankle bracelet in the hotel room, and HAVE to have it back.

Last night I got a this call:

f/a : I'm in the crew lot, and my car is stuck in the snow. I need someone to dig me out.

Me: Did you try rocking your car back and forth to get it out?

f/a: No, I'll try it and give you a call back in 5 minutes.

Never heard back.

brillant.

 

[dispatchguy]

When snow removal/de-icing ops are in progress, I always double whatever the standard taxi time is as calculated by the flight planning system; more if I have a verifiable means to determine what the actual out-to-off delay is. For the Bornemann/SABRE system, you can type either a time value in the TXIO box on the FPCFP screen, preceded by a plus (eg, +30 for 30 minute taxi time), or an actual amount of taxi fuel. If that wasnt covered during your OJI, get with your training department and get it covered! If your system can only do the standard, you need a new system...

What one regional did was require all captains going thru their initial equipment upgrade to spend an ENTIRE shift in with a dispatcher so the captain can see what it all entails, and get the story on the other side of the mic - after all, we're required by law (121.547) to jumpseat and see your side of the ops coin, no reason you cant do the same. Most captains, especially the younger ones, were usually impresed with all the info we have at our fingertips.

After all, when I build a specific reroute for TSRA, you take a center offered direct right into the line of level 5, and then call us asking where's it clear, and by the way were near min fuel now with all the deviating - if the DX is watching, he can see it all taking place beforehand, and start to come up with a plan before he gets that call from Atlanta Radio - and maybe nudge you back on his originally intended route.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Before you guys start sniping at each other over ACARS, remember that it isn't exactly a private conversation.

Ham radio enthusiasts can and do listen and decode the ACARS data links. There are whole websites devoted this this, and your petty remarks are on the web for all to see, right along with the flight number, aircraft number date and time.

http://www.airnavsystems.com/ANAD/

Do a search on ACARS and see for yourself...

Nu