Thunderstorm Flying Altitude

[7B2]

Dustin.

If you "have" to fly into a T-storm by your boss, maybe you "have" to go work somewhere else, before you're family has to attend .... you know!!

With a baron you cannot fly safely through a storm.
I won't even argue over this drunk.

 

[CaSyndrm]

I no longer have anything nice to say on this subject so I'll say nothing at all.

 

[Checks]

I never said to fly OVER a T-Storm. I meant get on top of the cloud layer so you will see the T-Storms which to most pilots implies that you deviate around them.

Please, dont mis-quote me.

 

[surplus1]

Thanks to all
I never thought about lower being better. Obviously, higher than anything is great, but a normally aspirated airplane is only going to go so high.

I do know how to use the tilt feature, and the only time I have seen really heavy stuff, we deviated around it. So was everyone else that day.

The advise to stay on the ground is sound, but not always possible. Comfort factor is a big thing, and I have lots of things yet to do, so no hari kari on this trip. I normally disconnect the A/P as soon as it gets choppy, for the reasons mentioned, but also most will disconnect on their own at some point, and I don't want that to happen when it decides, rather when I decide.

What else? Great info here as always.

Sky37d,

It was wise of you to ask for advice. You got some that is very good and some that is very bad. As always, the problem is knowing the difference. Hopefully, I can join with those who gave the good advice.

Before we get into the "flying" aspect consider this: A doctor buries his mistakes. A pilot is buried with his mistakes.

1. Regardless of your knowledge of how to use your radar or the quality of your equipment, remember always - radar is NOT a penetration aid, it is an avoidance tool.

2. Do not, under any circumstance, intentionally penetrate a thunderstorm. [You are not a research pilot or a hurricane hunter]

3. Do not, attempt to use your radar to penetrate a squall line. That means that you must have a clear path, that you are certain will remain clear and permit you to pass with at least 20 miles from any cell on both sides of your track. Has it been done successfuly? Yes, it has. It has also been done unsucessfully.

4. The concept of the "lower" altitude being best is based on your ability to remain visual and circumnavigate cells while in VMC. It does NOT mean that you can fly safely through or under any storm. This "technique" has produced safe passage. It has also produced disaster (Braniff)

5. As enigma correctly pointed out, do NOT fly over the "top" of a cell even though you are "in the clear". Fly around it.

6. Avoid flying under anvil heads (in the clear) especially at higher altitudes. Hail is not kind to the airframe.

7. Your radar can "see" cells, but it cannot reliably see through cells. Don't get "suckerd" into believing that it can. [Southern][ValueJet]

8. Never ever be too proud to land at a suitable airport and wait it out or to deviate to your alternate when necessary.

9. No schedule, whether private or commercial, is ever important enough to cause you to take chances or ignore safety. [Some calculated risk is always necessary if we fly. On the other hand "chances" are the roll of the dice. Gambling and flying are incompatible].

10. "Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect." — Captain A. G. Lamplugh

With respect to your autopilot - IF your equipment has that capability consider this > when you anticipate moderate turbulence, disengage the altitude hold but leave the wing leveling and heading functions engaged. Not all autopilots can do that, but it does work if the unit can and it's easier than hand flying.

Finally, keep in mind that "manuevering speed" is not always the same as "turbulence penetration speed". Consult your AFM (POH) for the correct numbers.

Enjoy your trip, it sounds like fun. Just remember that good judgement is always superior to flying skill.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

A doctor buries his mistakes. A pilot is buried with his mistakes.

Good one.
I liked everything else in that post, too. Read it twice.

 

[sky37d]

me too. Thanks
I always use radar for avoidance. I'm not comfortable with trying to snake my way through a storm. I know there are people who do, but this is for fun, and fun shouldn't be excessively dangerous.

I always look out as far as possible when on the ground, and then plan accordingly.

On this trip, which starts Wednesday, I am planning to go to TBN, on my first leg, but the forecast for the area says T-Storms. If the forecast comes true while I am in the area, a different route will have to be chosen.

 

[TurboS7]

Flying TRW's out west---Just stay below the bases. You will find that the bases will run about 10000 to 12000 feet. They are usually dry Thundersotrms. Look out for virga with a CB above it, that usually is a full blown thunderstorm with all the assocaited turbulence. Once you go above 10000 even this time of year you will run into ice, a big no no, in the mountains. The big thing to remember is that there are a billziiion airports and places to land. If you don't like what you see land and check out the last WSI radar, internet or whatever they have avialiable at the FBO.If you are flying at night look for the lightning, out west you will see the lightning for a cell hundreds of miles away. As for our friend that is a TRW penetration expert, you are crazy. I have flown a bunch of freight and I ran a 135. I never expected my pilot's to penetrate any line or weather, we stopped or we flew around the stuff, the Fed or the banks could just all stuff it, I told them that and we kept the contract. Your employer did not deserve to be in aviation. BTW at night the TRW's loose a bunch of convection due to loosing heating from the the sun, so even though you had a precitation levels of 4 and 5 your you were flying in a dissipating line. You are right about flying low, and keeping the airspeed around VA. Just be careful, one of these days you will not be so lucky.

 

[CaSyndrm]

For all those posts above that say stay or fly low or below the bases. Isn't that where a plane is likely to encounter Microbursts? If so then why all the advise? If not then nevermind.

 

[mar]

Low and outside?

I was thinking the same thing.

I came to my own conclusion: Stay below the bases *outside* of the lateral dimensions of the cell.



I never thought the whole subject of TRW avoidance was so complicated. And yeah, I've experienced Arizona monsoon in single engine recips.

 

[CaSyndrm]

I was thinking the same thing.

I came to my own conclusion: Stay below the bases *outside* of the lateral dimensions of the cell.




LIKE ANOTHER STATE

 

[sky37d]

I was thinking the same thing.


LIKE ANOTHER STATE

As long as it isn't the state of confusion, I agree

 

[TurboS7]

Since our Baron friend is talking about penetration I guess I better clarifly myself. We are talking about thunderstorm avoidance, going around them. By staying below the bases you can see to avoid and to navigate and you are well within the performance of a normally aspirated engine.

 

[Kingairrick]

The only way to stay safe around thunderstorms is to stay out of them. VMC works the best.

Dustin has fallen into the same trap I did when I flew night freight. (2000 hours of it.) A sense of pride comes from beating the odds and going through. Some of these companies have a corporate culture that rewards the pilot that takes risks to complete flights. At the company I worked for, this translated into MANY accidents, and a couple of dead friends. (Although this company tells their new pilots today that they have only had 2 fatal accidents.) It took me several scary incidents to learn that it was male cowpoop. As posted above, it could be the 1st one or the 1001st one that gets you, but if you cheat the odds enough, one WILL get you.

Now, 10 years later, in a relatively large, safe airplane, I stay as far away as possible from cells. My boss tells me the only pilot he ever fired was after he went through a cell. So he has no problem getting a hotel and waiting until tomorrow.

Bottom line is: the risk of any one flight is not worth your life. Go tomorrow. You'll be sure to get there.

 

[Rook]

Great topic guys. Enjoyed reading all the opinions on TRW avoidance. As an F/O we we're taxiing for takeoff when a storm was approaching from the southwest. When lined up for takeoff the CA scanned the area and we found a spot that was 'clear'. After being cleared for Takeoff we heard a couple of 'good luck's' from the guys waiting for the storm to pass. It ended up being a smooth flight with just a few minor deviations. But seeing all that red didn't make me feel any more comfortable. Now as a new captain I have to be the judge on going or not going. This topic was very informative. Keep it up.

Rook
600' AGL. Autopilot on.
'WHEW!'

 

[7B2]

Dustin, how's the baron holding up?

Just look at the following link about stuff commonly found in the vicinit of T-storms.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=402670&WxsIERv=Qm9laW5nIDczNy0zM1Y%3D&WdsYXMg=RWFzeUpldCBBaXJsaW5l&QtODMg=R2VuZXZhIC0gSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbCAoQ29pbnRyaW4pIChHVkEgLyBMU0dHKQ%3D%3D&ERDLTkt=U3dpdHplcmxhbmQ%3D&ktODMp=QXVndXN0IDE1LCAyMDAz&BP=0&WNEb25u=S2VuamkgU2F0b2g%3D&xsIERvdWdsY=SEItSUlJ&MgTUQtODMgKE=RmxpZ2h0IEVaUyA5MDMgZnJvbSBHZW5ldmEgdG8gTG9uZG9uIEx1dG9uIGVtZXJnZW5jeSByZXR1cm4gdG8gR2VuZXZhIGR1ZSB0byBzZXJpb3VzIGRhbWFnZXMgYnkgaGFpbC4gTm90ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSB0d28gY29ja3BpdCB3aW5kb3cgY3JhY2tlZC4%3D&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=NzA1Nzg%3D&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwMy0wOC0xNg%3D%3D&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=MjkzMzgvMzExNA%3D%3D&static=yes

 

[TurboS7]

That is just a European TRW nothing compared to the PaPa Bears we have in the midwest. For those that haven't read the book you need to read Weather Flying by Buck followed by Severe Weather Flying by the same author. When I had my 135 I bought each of my pilot's that book and told them they had to read it.

 

[enigma]

I’d get on the ground and see the radar had a thick line of red about two to three states long. Going through that stuff really wasn’t that bad, at least not with my experience. I will think twice about posting advice based on my experience though. You guys are brutal.

Dustin, I think I just figured out your problem. You are relating FBO w/x radar red to airborn w/x radar RED.

Back when I flew corporate, the FBO I used changed from an old radar repeater display, to a new DTN machine that showed doppler radar. Being very familiar with the local w/x patterns, I immediately noticed that the new doppler showed much more red than did the older display. At the time, Iworked for a man who didn't mind burning up all 6300#s of fuel in the Lear just to get 150 miles, so we would top off and take off in the wrong direction if need be. With that kind of operational latitude (part 91 has it's advantages ) we would take off and then find that the actual w/x conditions were not nearly as severe as the DTN doppler made it out to be. So, I called flight service one afternoon and inquired about the doppler, I was told that they (montgomery county) had also just upgraded their w/x radar to doppler, and they had come to the same conclusion.That conclusion being: doppler was showing w/x that wasn't really there. Doppler shows every bit of moisture in the atmosphere, and starts painting red a long time before the precip reaches the levels associated with a full blown TS. Doppler shows a scary amount of red, red that is not always justified by actual conditions. Doppler is great, but it's almost too much information.

You had to have been flying around in CU's and rain that showed doppler red, if you had been flying through real RED you'd have long since shed your wings.

Does anyone remember the poor dude flying night freight in a 400 series Cessna that lost the wings over Arkansas about 15 years ago. The man actually made a radio call saying that he had lost the wings, and asked the controller to tell his wife/gf goodby.
That still sucks, just thinking about it.


enigma

 

[TurboS7]

I would like to know who was the hairbrained idiot that invented flying right through the stuff. I had one of my pilots had just flown all the way to Colombia, S.A on a mission trip. He was coming back from PIT going to DPA. There was a solid line that went all the way to STL. I just figured that he would fly around the line then come up to DPA. (We had no radar on the PA-31)His wife called and I gave her the info. About 2 minutes later he shows up outside the hangar. He had flown right through the level 5 line of TRW's so he could make a dinner date with his wife. I found all the cowling buttons popped and gone on the cowlings. I was in STL flying freight to MKC. A guy in a 310 took off went to 3000 feet and plowed right through a hugh line. I had radar in my Aztec flew the same route and deviated to the south about 50 miles and found a nice hole. I arrived 15 minutes after he did. Some of you guys are crazy, smoking weed or something. Even our 402 friend that lost his wings had no business being there. Level 5's put out unbelieable amounts of lightning, you know where they are even without radar. If I have seen in this industry it is one thing a total disrespect for weather, by the operators and by the pilots, especially in freight operations. You only get to loose your wings once.

 

[7B2]

You only get to loose your wings once.

Very well said.

 

[sky37d]

update

I listened, and learned.
Good, IFR, weather to TBN. Turn to PWA, radar is good. Got close, radar filled up

about 12 miles out, OKC approach says, there is a level 5 storm 5 miles west of the runway. You are cleared for the visual, or you can wait and do the ILS.

Like I said, I listened. In the 337, gear extension speed is 140, but once it is down and locked, that limitation disappears. So, slow way down, gear down, drop the nose. I was doing 160 on short final. I was getting splotches of rain on the windshield, slowed down, flaps down, land.

Taxi to parking, they throw ropes on, chocks on, head for the terminal. Then the rain moved in, and about 5 minutes later, the hail showed up. We all got to watch hail bouncing off our birds. Not a pretty sight. About that time, ATIs changed to include the hail. Other people held out, waiting for it to pass.

Not a good thing to see the town you are voluntarily visiting to be featured on the weather channel.

Thanks, good advise, I listened, I think others should too.

 

[freightdogfred]

What a crazy thread.....Guys discussing the do's and dont's of penetrating level 4 and 5 cells.... I've flown thru a few as well, but only when the radar quit or lied to me. Flying thru a cell scares the dogpoop out of me, and that's in a four engine jet.

 

[Dustin H]

enigma--

Thanks for posting that. What I thought to be level 5-6 could have been more in the neighborhood of 3-4. I hadn't thought of that before.

Sad story about the guy in the Cessna. I'm glad I don't have to fly in that crap anymore. The company I fly for now backs me 100% if I feel the flight is not safe. Plus we have radar equipment to deviate around the small stuff if need be.

 

[Ty Webb]

My only encounter with a microburst was in visual conditions.

I was approaching the runway at a 90 degree angle, to do the overhead circling approach, and I could see the entire 6600' runway laid out in front of me. Both the approach and departure ends of the runway had cells a few miles out, but the whole airport area seemed to be in the clear.

How bad was it? Let's just say that even with the recommended "Max Power, Pitch to 20 degrees" it was still like a giant hand was pushing me down toward the ground, and the GPWS Squawking like crazy. Not good.

Needless to say, I made it, but if I can get through the next 23 years without doing that again, I will retire a happy man.

 

[Boeingman]

Got caught by a microburst on a PAR approach in an F-4 many moons ago. Almost the same type weather as EAL 66, just low vis due to haze and a broken layer of clouds being reported with scattered TRW's in the vicinity of the field.

I nearly lost control of the airplane and was in full burner on the miss for what seemed like an eternity. I probably was around 10 feet from slamming into the ground. To this day I still don't know how I didn't hit the approach lights. They sure looked odd looking down at them from the side of the canopy.

I'm glad that my exposure to thunderstorms happened early in my flying career. I don't think my heart would autoreboot now as quick as it did back then. I still shake my head listening to some of you GA guys flirting with these things. Your life is not worth the risk.

 

[Axel]

If you're not scared, it's because you do not understand the danger.

 

[C-12Bubba]

One he11 of a post!

I cut and pasted the best of the posts on this thread into a word document for training a bunch of Navy C-12 pilots. Most of us learn best from stories. There were some good ones here.

Thanks to all who posted.



This weather encounter happened to me during an afternoon flight in October of 1999, from Diego Garcia (an island in the Indian Ocean) to Bahrain (in the gulf). The weird part of it was, we had NO RADAR. The whole premice of the mission was to deliver it to Bahrain where it could get fixed (had a part we needed up there). So we were told to try and fly it up there, but if the T-storms got in the way, to come home.

We went to the weather guessers, and had satellite printouts and forecasts for our trip. Off we went, and all was well, until we encountered an innocent enough looking cloud, with "blue sky" on the other side. It looked blue until we got real close, then it became gray/black-- a wall of water, the noise alone was so bad it was hard to communicate in the cockpit (sound of rain hitting the aircraft). We had put our heading bugs 180 out, just in case, before we entered the cloud. The turbulence was throwing us around, we just flew attitude, not really worrying about altitude. When we 180'd, and emerged from the cloud, we went home (Diego) with our tail between our legs, not wanting to repeat that again.

The 180 turn is debateable, but we figured if we didn't pop out of the cloud with blue sky all around, we were going to turn around (lest we run into a thunderstorm). So that's what we did.

I've had to fly attitude for real, twice so far. Both times, the turbulence was good enough to make the panel a little blurry. At night, putting the flight instrument lights up bright helped illuminate the Attitude Indicator so I could fly attitude easier, until I could get out the turbulence..

If I expect turbulence, I kick off the autopilot (so it doesn't try to maintain altitude and over-g the airplane). I get to Turbulent air penetration speed (170 KIAS in the C-12) with a power reduction before I enter the clouds (usually get some turbulence in clouds). I think passengers appreciate that, it makes for a smoother ride. The King Air (C-12) has a tendency to wobble about the yaw axis in turbulence, so we leave yaw damp on, and it works like a champ to keep the nose in one spot. If below 5 deg., then the anti-ice equipment comes on as well.

This post is too long, I'm stopping right here!