Thunderstorm Flying Altitude

[Dustin H]

Flying through level 5 and 6 thunderstorms can not be done safely, period. You may think you are safe the first 100 times, but 101 might kill you. On the other hand, number 1 might be the one that gets you.

I use to think the exact same way until I had a few seasons of doing it myself. Most pilots go around it so they don't have any experience with it. I had no choice because I was flying night IFR without radar, and if you've ever flown for a shoe string cargo company, you know what kind of pressure you are under to make the flight. If it's just yourself on board, fine. If you have passengers, go around or wait it out.

I agree 100% going around or waiting it out is the better alternative. But if someone is going to do it, I'd rather have them armed with the basics.

 

[enigma]

If you can get on top that is the best because you will see those monsters poking thru the tops. If not then I agree that down low is better but the best thing is to know how to use the tilt feature on your radar system.

Unless you can obtain a SR71/U2/Mig29/space shuttle, you will not get on top. I have a significant amount of time in a Lear certified to FL510 and I can tell you that thunderheads can top any altitude I could reach. I once tried to top one on the old J86 between LEV and SRQ (over the Gulf of Mexico) by going to FL450, I topped the visible cloud by a couple of thousand feet, but still came close (pucker factor level 9) to suffering an upset. Quite simply, the downdraft adjacent to the core updraft was much stronger that the old Lear could overcome. It hit hard and fast, I initially hoped that max power would suffice, after about 1/2 of a second I bailed and pitched over. That stopped the airspeed loss, but we then went into an updraft. It was an interesting ride. The boss, who never buckled up, put his belt on after that one. It is NOT a good feeling to be seven and a half miles up, sideways and falling.

If you can't reliably circumnavigate a CB, go back. The advice to go low is not advice to go under. Going low allows you to see the clouds and rainshafts so as to allow you to circumnavigate.

Good Luck, and I hope that you don't need it.

enigma

PS, the cell I attempted to overfly was the ONLY cell for fifty miles. It just happened to be on the route and I was in a hurry. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. I could have deviated and not lost more than sixty seconds. That's what we call a "learning experience". Unfortunately, the Maddog I fly currently has a hard time getting over 330, so I now almost never get to use my knowledge. I have no choice but to deviate.

 

[Axel]

Just a matter of time

Where should we send the flowers, Dustin?

 

[prpjt]

I use to fly through squall lines every night when I flew cargo in a Barron. I'd fly though level 5 and 6 with out any problems so it can be done with a certain level of safety.

Layman's terminology: I drive drunk all the time without any problems, so it can be done with a certain level of safety"

The above quote is just so wrong.... on so many levels, it's difficult to know where to start. But here it goes.... just humor me.


Eastern Flight 66 - JFK - Reported weather: 4000 broken, 5 in HZ

Perhaps this excerpt from the NTSB report will have some meaning: ....described EAL 66's approach as normal--there was little or no turbulence. According to one of the attendants, the aircraft rolled to the left, and she heard engine power increase significantly. The aircraft then rolled upright and rocked back and forth. She was thrown forward then upright. Several seconds later she saw the cabin emergency lights illuminate and O2 masks drop from their retainers. Her next recollection was her escape from the wreckage.

This aircraft flew under a Level 5 cell at the OM....never made it to the runway. Must have not been at Va, huh?


Another example:
Delta flight 191 - DFW - Reported Weather:6000 BKN, 10 mi

At 1804 a radar specialist reported the presence of a cell at DFW and was described as (paraphrased) "reflectivity NOT equal to or greater than level 4"

At 1805 Delta 191, a Lockheed L1011 entered that cell at an altitude of about 2500'. Never made it to the runway.

Delta 191 was third to land behind a 727 and a LR25. The lear went through 2 minutes earlier, and reported after the crash that he had experienced "light to moderate turbulence"

Level 5 and 6 returns have rainfall rates of 4.5 to 7.1 inches(5) and +7.1 inches(6) per hour. These rates can flame out engines. Examples can be found courtesy of the NTSB.

As to Dustins savvy advice to ask for a 1000 foot block, it really makes me believe this guy got lucky and never penetrated the worst of it. The reason is that a bad thunderstorm will laugh at a 1000' block altitude. You can easily ride 2500' feet and not be able to do a damb thing about it. As to manipulating the power while in an actual bad cell (in a Baron) I just can't see it. I have been in a Baron in a situation I didn't want to be in, after a radar failure. Gear down, slow speed, Keeping the plane upright was purely luck.

Dustin, you got lucky - realize that.

 

[CaSyndrm]

Dustin H says
"I had no choice"


I say "Bull **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**"

 

[CaSyndrm]

Wow, I've never been censored before. I thought this was an adult website and am very surprised to see what happened to my last post.

Maybe there should be a thread on censorship and the website will see that most reply's will be against censorship. I think.

 

[dmspilot00]

Wow, I've never been censored before. I thought this was an adult website and am very surprised to see what happened to my last post.

It's automatic and probably something that came as part of the software we're using. Don't take it personally.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

If it's just yourself on board, fine. If you have passengers, go around or wait it out.

So dying's okay as long as you don't have an audience?

 

[Dustin H]

Prpjt –

You are listing large turbine aircraft on final approach. A little different than a twin-engine light aircraft in the enrought portion of the flight. Airplanes crash because of crosswinds, but is that any reason not to fly when they exist. Airplanes have crashed in all situations, so listing them doesn’t prove anything. I’ll agree flying into a t-storm is just as dangerous as driving drunk if the right precautions are not taken.

CaSyndrm –

Yes, of course I had a choice, but can you remember when you had no flight time and you would do just about anything to build multi time and living paycheck to paycheck? I saw guys who refused a few flights and later got canned over something very minor, or had their schedules rearranged. After awhile I got comfortable flying through bad weather, so it didn’t bother me.

Hugh Jorgan –

I guess I didn’t make myself clear. You wouldn’t want to bring passengers into a heavy t-storm because most people don’t handle turbulence the same way we do. They can get nauseous and scared and it’s just not comfortable. Thanks for trying to understand what I was saying though.


Did any of you have a bad experience with flying in bad weather? You all seem very gun-shy on the subject. In all the bad weather I’ve ever flown in, I’ve always been able to maintain positive control of the aircraft and never felt like I was pushing the limit. Maybe I was just lucky. I think you could say the same thing about someone’s parachute always opening. They are just always lucky the chute opens.


I had a run from Memphis to Kansas City where there would always be a thick line of t-storms that I would have to go though. I’d get on the ground and see the radar had a thick line of red about two to three states long. Going through that stuff really wasn’t that bad, at least not with my experience. I will think twice about posting advice based on my experience though. You guys are brutal.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Did any of you have a bad experience with flying in bad weather?
Yes.

You all seem very gun-shy on the subject.
We are.

In all the bad weather I’ve ever flown in, I’ve always been able to maintain positive control of the aircraft and never felt like I was pushing the limit.

If only stupidity hurt, you might have then felt it.

Maybe I was just lucky.

You were.

I think you could say the same thing about someone’s parachute always opening. They are just always lucky the chute opens.
With that reasoning, we are always just lucky when we get three down and locked.



there would always be a thick line of t-storms that I would have to go though.

Why would you "have" to go through it?

Going through that stuff really wasn’t that bad, at least not with my experience.

Well, all that experience must make you immune to basic physics.

I will think twice about posting advice based on my experience though. You guys are brutal.

If only you would think twice about flying through T-storms.

 

[7B2]

Dustin.

If you "have" to fly into a T-storm by your boss, maybe you "have" to go work somewhere else, before you're family has to attend .... you know!!

With a baron you cannot fly safely through a storm.
I won't even argue over this drunk.

 

[CaSyndrm]

I no longer have anything nice to say on this subject so I'll say nothing at all.

 

[Checks]

I never said to fly OVER a T-Storm. I meant get on top of the cloud layer so you will see the T-Storms which to most pilots implies that you deviate around them.

Please, dont mis-quote me.

 

[surplus1]

Thanks to all
I never thought about lower being better. Obviously, higher than anything is great, but a normally aspirated airplane is only going to go so high.

I do know how to use the tilt feature, and the only time I have seen really heavy stuff, we deviated around it. So was everyone else that day.

The advise to stay on the ground is sound, but not always possible. Comfort factor is a big thing, and I have lots of things yet to do, so no hari kari on this trip. I normally disconnect the A/P as soon as it gets choppy, for the reasons mentioned, but also most will disconnect on their own at some point, and I don't want that to happen when it decides, rather when I decide.

What else? Great info here as always.

Sky37d,

It was wise of you to ask for advice. You got some that is very good and some that is very bad. As always, the problem is knowing the difference. Hopefully, I can join with those who gave the good advice.

Before we get into the "flying" aspect consider this: A doctor buries his mistakes. A pilot is buried with his mistakes.

1. Regardless of your knowledge of how to use your radar or the quality of your equipment, remember always - radar is NOT a penetration aid, it is an avoidance tool.

2. Do not, under any circumstance, intentionally penetrate a thunderstorm. [You are not a research pilot or a hurricane hunter]

3. Do not, attempt to use your radar to penetrate a squall line. That means that you must have a clear path, that you are certain will remain clear and permit you to pass with at least 20 miles from any cell on both sides of your track. Has it been done successfuly? Yes, it has. It has also been done unsucessfully.

4. The concept of the "lower" altitude being best is based on your ability to remain visual and circumnavigate cells while in VMC. It does NOT mean that you can fly safely through or under any storm. This "technique" has produced safe passage. It has also produced disaster (Braniff)

5. As enigma correctly pointed out, do NOT fly over the "top" of a cell even though you are "in the clear". Fly around it.

6. Avoid flying under anvil heads (in the clear) especially at higher altitudes. Hail is not kind to the airframe.

7. Your radar can "see" cells, but it cannot reliably see through cells. Don't get "suckerd" into believing that it can. [Southern][ValueJet]

8. Never ever be too proud to land at a suitable airport and wait it out or to deviate to your alternate when necessary.

9. No schedule, whether private or commercial, is ever important enough to cause you to take chances or ignore safety. [Some calculated risk is always necessary if we fly. On the other hand "chances" are the roll of the dice. Gambling and flying are incompatible].

10. "Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect." — Captain A. G. Lamplugh

With respect to your autopilot - IF your equipment has that capability consider this > when you anticipate moderate turbulence, disengage the altitude hold but leave the wing leveling and heading functions engaged. Not all autopilots can do that, but it does work if the unit can and it's easier than hand flying.

Finally, keep in mind that "manuevering speed" is not always the same as "turbulence penetration speed". Consult your AFM (POH) for the correct numbers.

Enjoy your trip, it sounds like fun. Just remember that good judgement is always superior to flying skill.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

A doctor buries his mistakes. A pilot is buried with his mistakes.

Good one.
I liked everything else in that post, too. Read it twice.

 

[sky37d]

me too. Thanks
I always use radar for avoidance. I'm not comfortable with trying to snake my way through a storm. I know there are people who do, but this is for fun, and fun shouldn't be excessively dangerous.

I always look out as far as possible when on the ground, and then plan accordingly.

On this trip, which starts Wednesday, I am planning to go to TBN, on my first leg, but the forecast for the area says T-Storms. If the forecast comes true while I am in the area, a different route will have to be chosen.

 

[TurboS7]

Flying TRW's out west---Just stay below the bases. You will find that the bases will run about 10000 to 12000 feet. They are usually dry Thundersotrms. Look out for virga with a CB above it, that usually is a full blown thunderstorm with all the assocaited turbulence. Once you go above 10000 even this time of year you will run into ice, a big no no, in the mountains. The big thing to remember is that there are a billziiion airports and places to land. If you don't like what you see land and check out the last WSI radar, internet or whatever they have avialiable at the FBO.If you are flying at night look for the lightning, out west you will see the lightning for a cell hundreds of miles away. As for our friend that is a TRW penetration expert, you are crazy. I have flown a bunch of freight and I ran a 135. I never expected my pilot's to penetrate any line or weather, we stopped or we flew around the stuff, the Fed or the banks could just all stuff it, I told them that and we kept the contract. Your employer did not deserve to be in aviation. BTW at night the TRW's loose a bunch of convection due to loosing heating from the the sun, so even though you had a precitation levels of 4 and 5 your you were flying in a dissipating line. You are right about flying low, and keeping the airspeed around VA. Just be careful, one of these days you will not be so lucky.

 

[CaSyndrm]

For all those posts above that say stay or fly low or below the bases. Isn't that where a plane is likely to encounter Microbursts? If so then why all the advise? If not then nevermind.

 

[mar]

Low and outside?

I was thinking the same thing.

I came to my own conclusion: Stay below the bases *outside* of the lateral dimensions of the cell.



I never thought the whole subject of TRW avoidance was so complicated. And yeah, I've experienced Arizona monsoon in single engine recips.

 

[CaSyndrm]

I was thinking the same thing.

I came to my own conclusion: Stay below the bases *outside* of the lateral dimensions of the cell.




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