This just in ... merger talks continue with "less generous terms."

[ACL65PILOT]

I am sure that the DC-9's though paid for have a oil price that starts a law of diminishing returns. I am sure that we have passed it. It is great to own an airplane. It makes it easier to deal with crude oil fluctuations, but at a certain point the extra cost to operate it, out weigh the profits of ownership. We are going to have to deal with it one way or another. I would guess that they will be parked by the end of the year causing a bunch of furloughs. I think that is why DAL and NWA may have slammed their doors shut very quickly.
It was less than two weeks ago when DAL was upping their hiring numbers for the year, and it was a 180 overnight. Now NWA is slamming their doors shut. I will give you that something may be up.
On the other hand. If DAL is going to pay a fine to the FAA, the two money boys would be the ones that would be in discussion with them, no one else.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Do not be an idiot.
Money guys deal with money, and the FAA has egg on their face. Guess what they want.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas ACL,

They are certainly free to park all the DC-9s they want. Just as soon as they park all of their large RJs.

Nu

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Many of the reports on the months past were fairly close to how it played out with the MEC's. So for a second and only a second give WSJ credit. Read the article. It says nothing about meeting. It only states that NWA management wants to get this done. Yes, it may be spoken from one side but echoed from both. My guess is if we were all in a locked room once again, someone would be reporting it. No one is, yet. Until then, I would say it is more desire than anything else on managements part.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Heyas ACL,

They are certainly free to park all the DC-9s they want. Just as soon as they park all of their large RJs.

Nu

I agree 110%. RJ's need to be flown by main line pilots. I do not care how we get there, but it needs to happen. With the E series and C series coming on line, we can all kiss the DC-9's, 318, and MD-88 goodbye. Yes, today we have scope, but look back to 93. We starting giving the farm away. Do not think for one second that senior guys will not see the junior guys down the river to keep a little pay. That is what has gotten this industry to where it is today.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Just remember that the deal between the companies is done.
If they were to be involved with something this weekend, it would be them sitting down with two pilot groups from, "unnamed" airlines.

 

[jetflier]

I thought you wanted to give up your DC9 and come on over to Delta? Right? Didn't you ask me for help? You are an idiot.

Anyway, Anderson did state specific things NEEDED for a merger to happen, and that included FAIR INTEGRATION for his employees. If you think he will just laugh that off, I think you are wrong. He will do the right thing or lose all respect of his new employees. Am I naive? No, I think he knows he will get krap if he doesn't live up to what he was stating. Thank Gawd you know him soooo well. At least we know that your guy Steenland is a real fun guy, and can't wait to take his merger bonus and retire on Lake Minnetonka.

As far as the deal going through, well, let's hear what good ole Ray Neidl thinks:


"Basically, unless Delta management has a change a heart, I don't think they're going to do anything without the support of their pilots," said Calyon Securities analyst Ray Neidl.

"It shows that people don't want it to die and they'll keep trying things, but I don't think it puts us any closer."



Bye Bye--General Lee

General, with all do respect, Anderson worked for Northwest first, and while at NWA he said the same things, and would always look out for the employees of NWA first.

And he said that at his mansion on Lake Minnetonka !

You guys let the Trojan Horse into your tent !

 

[Superpilot92]

I am sure that the DC-9's though paid for have a oil price that starts a law of diminishing returns. I am sure that we have passed it. It is great to own an airplane. It makes it easier to deal with crude oil fluctuations, but at a certain point the extra cost to operate it, out weigh the profits of ownership. We are going to have to deal with it one way or another. I would guess that they will be parked by the end of the year causing a bunch of furloughs. I think that is why DAL and NWA may have slammed their doors shut very quickly.
It was less than two weeks ago when DAL was upping their hiring numbers for the year, and it was a 180 overnight. Now NWA is slamming their doors shut. I will give you that something may be up.
On the other hand. If DAL is going to pay a fine to the FAA, the two money boys would be the ones that would be in discussion with them, no one else.

Thats not possible under the current scope clause. They would have to park those pretty new EJETS before that can happen. Scope is a wonderful thing! DAL should try it sometime

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Never flown the 9. Not good enough of a pilot, I prefer glass

I thought you wanted to give up your DC9 and come on over to Delta? Right? Didn't you ask me for help? You are an idiot.

Anyway, Anderson did state specific things NEEDED for a merger to happen, and that included FAIR INTEGRATION for his employees. If you think he will just laugh that off, I think you are wrong. He will do the right thing or lose all respect of his new employees. Am I naive? No, I think he knows he will get krap if he doesn't live up to what he was stating. Thank Gawd you know him soooo well. At least we know that your guy Steenland is a real fun guy, and can't wait to take his merger bonus and retire on Lake Minnetonka.

As far as the deal going through, well, let's hear what good ole Ray Neidl thinks:


"Basically, unless Delta management has a change a heart, I don't think they're going to do anything without the support of their pilots," said Calyon Securities analyst Ray Neidl.

"It shows that people don't want it to die and they'll keep trying things, but I don't think it puts us any closer."



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[IronCityBlue]

Thats not possible under the current scope clause. They would have to park those pretty new EJETS before that can happen. Scope is a wonderful thing! DAL should try it sometime

When it comes to scope, I'm your guy's biggest fan, but come on. While Delta is not blameless when it comes to poor scope, you guys outsourced the new E170 and now that camel's nose is under the tent. It will require a bloody fight to kick it out and/or to bring that flying in house. The fact that Compass is represented by your MEC is a joke. CoEx was under the CAL MEC briefly, but now are not. That said, CAL pilots are the scope heros right now, with a white knuckle death grip on any jet over 50 seats. AA is at least sabre ratteling for any jet over 36 seats. I doubt they will get that, ever, but the 70's and up MUST be returned to mainline seniority lists by any means necessary. That if WAY more important than any pay raise or B fund bump.

 

[IronCityBlue]

I agree 110%. RJ's need to be flown by main line pilots. I do not care how we get there, but it needs to happen. With the E series and C series coming on line, we can all kiss the DC-9's, 318, and MD-88 goodbye. Yes, today we have scope, but look back to 93. We starting giving the farm away. Do not think for one second that senior guys will not see the junior guys down the river to keep a little pay. That is what has gotten this industry to where it is today.

Absofreakinglutely.

Getting 51 seat and up jets back during THIS round of negotiations (NOT later) will be the defining moment of our careers. Those planes MUST be taken away from outsource providers by ANY means necessary.

 

[jetflier]

Never flown the 9. Not good enough of a pilot, I prefer glass

I've heard that before,...in our training department from the new-hires. Most of these trainees had only flown glass commuter planes and had a very high wash out rate.

 

[dbrownie]

When some one from NWA mgt says

"Northwest proposes retooling" prepare for no one

but mgt to be happy. This is a multi million $ deal

for non pilots! They could give a crap about us.

Welcome to NWA culture......

DB

 

[contrail67]

Please...if a Delta paint job does not end up on NWA planes....I just hope they get the compass pointer on the right side of the NWA aircraft pointing Northwest instead of Northeast...I still cannot believe that plan got all the way to the paint shop before it was caught.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Heyas ACL,

They are certainly free to park all the DC-9s they want. Just as soon as they park all of their large RJs.

Nu

They can still keep 55 of them, it falls to the lower cap. 90 total if it remains wholly-owned.

 

[737 Pylt]

Thats not possible under the current scope clause. They would have to park those pretty new EJETS before that can happen. Scope is a wonderful thing! DAL should try it sometime

Oh, this is precious coming from a nwa FNG!
I guess you conviently forgot about all those wonderful new ejets you outsourced.....Well of course you didn't, after, that's where you just came from a month ago!

737

 

[JoeMerchant]

Absofreakinglutely.

Getting 51 seat and up jets back during THIS round of negotiations (NOT later) will be the defining moment of our careers. Those planes MUST be taken away from outsource providers by ANY means necessary.

....sounds like a huge conflict of interest.....aren't many of those "providers" ALPA also? What do you mean by "ANY means"......"Brother"?

 

[clippyrip]

I never really got the conflict with the DC9....Everybody makes jokes about it, nobody wants to fly it and when there is talk of losing it to scope, now everyone wants it back.

I don't want the ball unless someone else wants to play with it....

If they park the DC9 and we don't lose our jobs, great. Then we'll fly a bigger and better aircraft to better destinations for better pay. I don't see the problem.

IMHO

 

[JoeMerchant]

I never really got the conflict with the DC9....Everybody makes jokes about it, nobody wants to fly it and when there is talk of losing it to scope, now everyone wants it back.

I don't want the ball unless someone else wants to play with it....

If they park the DC9 and we don't lose our jobs, great. Then we'll fly a bigger and better aircraft to better destinations for better pay. I don't see the problem.

IMHO

.....just like an RJ....Only time the mainline folks want to fly it is when the furloughs start....Then it becomes a "real" airplane....

 

[Turtle21]

This means you too ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

NONE of us want a USAIR saga.

As long as ALPA pretends to be a union across carriers, ALPA sagas will be revisited upon the pilots of ALPA.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

You know... as I sit here and sift through all this animosity and all these hard feelings, I nonetheless find myself awash in a sea of contentment. Not once over 6 pages of baseless mudslinging did jke406 rear his ugly head. Was his ban permanent??

On the other hand, I also notice that in jke's absence, 737pylt has gotten increasingly shrill and offensive. Too bad he has to use his Delta screen name now that his flame-baiting trolling screen name has been "grounded".

 

[737 Pylt]

You know... as I sit here and sift through all this animosity and all these hard feelings, I nonetheless find myself awash in a sea of contentment. Not once over 6 pages of baseless mudslinging did jke406 rear his ugly head. Was his ban permanent??

On the other hand, I also notice that in jke's absence, 737pylt has gotten increasingly shrill and offensive. Too bad he has to use his Delta screen name now that his flame-baiting trolling screen name has been "grounded".

Lemme guess, detoilet320, is that you? Don't you get tired of signing in and out of your other screen names?
Welcome back from the pen....Does the sunlight hurt your eyes?

737

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Lemme guess, detoilet320, is that you? Don't you get tired of signing in and out of your other screen names?
Welcome back from the pen....Does the sunlight hurt your eyes?

737

Nope, try again. Sorry you got banned though, jke406.

 

[Superpilot92]

Oh, this is precious coming from a nwa FNG! Wow, i guess i didnt realize information about scope changed depending on how long your with a company. Weird!!!
I guess you conviently forgot about all those wonderful new ejets you outsourced.....Well of course you didn't, after, that's where you just came from a month ago! Wrong longer, thanks for trying to keep track of my career progression though. Thats cute :blush:

737

jke406 you should really find a new hobby, your antics are getting pretty lame and you dont want to get this screen name banned next do you?

 

[IronCityBlue]

....sounds like a huge conflict of interest.....aren't many of those "providers" ALPA also? What do you mean by "ANY means"......"Brother"?

If mainlines were to force their pilots to the top of your seniority lists and bump you down, that would be unacceptable. But they have the right to reclaim their airline's flying at any time. Will it be expensive for them? Of course, because that's the bed they made and must deal with. But it can and should be done.

If you go Independence Air, you will be 100% entitled to all EV/OO flying, and no DL or UA pilot will have a claim to one seat of that flying, be it RJ, 737 or 747-800.

Just because an ALPA group gets an ACMI outsource contract does not mean it forever owns claim to that flying. In fact, it never owns any claim to that flying for another company, by definition.

In any case, despite the AA saber rattling, there is no way they are going to reclaim 37 seats and up all at once. But 51 seats and up is an awesome start. Hopefully CAL will hold on to that, and AA will get that, followed by DL and UA and NW in each upcoming contract.

To get that, serious negotiating capital will have to be spent, but I believe its worth it. There is no other long term viable option. All airline pilots have 100% right to negotiate for 100% of all pilot jobs for their airline. UA and DL pilots are not entitled to EV/OO flying, and EV and OO pilots are not entitled to UA/DL flying. Ever.

 

[IronCityBlue]

.....just like an RJ....Only time the mainline folks want to fly it is when the furloughs start....Then it becomes a "real" airplane....

If its your contention that mainline pilot groups were shortsighted and even downright arrogant with regards to the previous and current wave of outsourced RJ lift, you will get no argument from me. You can even make the case that some mainline pilots have treated RJ flying with condescension and contempt. You can then cry hypocrisy when those same pilots want that flying back. All of that may be intellectually sound on some level. But you can't then take those valid points and lay claim to any of the outsourced flying that you do for other airlines.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If its your contention that mainline pilot groups were shortsighted and even downright arrogant with regards to the previous and current wave of outsourced RJ lift, you will get no argument from me. You can even make the case that some mainline pilots have treated RJ flying with condescension and contempt. You can then cry hypocrisy when those same pilots want that flying back. All of that may be intellectually sound on some level. But you can't then take those valid points and lay claim to any of the outsourced flying that you do for other airlines.

I most certainly can lay claim to my job.....If my union tries to destroy my job....I will try to destroy my union....The best solution would be to work together.....but don't tell me my job belongs to someone else.....that dog won't hunt....and that could get very ugly.....

 

[IronCityBlue]

I most certainly can lay claim to my job.....If my union tries to destroy my job....I will try to destroy my union....The best solution would be to work together.....but don't tell me my job belongs to someone else.....that dog won't hunt....and that could get very ugly.....

I agree working together is always best, but you have to accept that, in the context of DL and UA flying (and any other outsource flying you may do) that you have zero leverage with regards to that flying.

One of many different ways flying could be brought back in house may be to add your pilot group to the bottom of the list if (and only if) your list is used as a conduit towards bringing that flying back to mainline. It is not the only way, but it is one possible way. One that was made infinitely more complicated by your acquisition by a large non pilot union company, but no matter. There are numerous other ways. If you don't like that you can sue again if you want, but I suspect that suit would be about as effective as the last one, which was as effective as a lawsuit against Pinnacle or Mesa would be for underbidding you. Its not your flying and you have no leverage to keep it.

If its ever to be brought back to the mainline seniority list, that will only happen if the mainline pilot groups pay dearly for it. They have the right to do so if they chose. So far they have chosen not to, but CAL is holding strong at 50 seat jets and AA is talking about 100% scope, which IMO just may mean getting the 70 back, and that's a great start.

Pilot groups shouldn't do other airline's flying, particularly 70 and 90 seat jets. That's gone way, way too far.

 

[jmreii]

if labor is not on board the reflection in the mirror will not be of U.S. airways but of yourselves. U.S. air is still in the test tube stage, we don't know if they are going to make it or not.