The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[Flopgut]

Lots of great ideas are shot down every day... in all organizations.... does that mean you give up and walk away?

This isn't even my idea, really. It's been run up the flag pole at National before. Besides, it wouldbn't matter if it was a good idea or a bad one. It wasn't going to be something that could keep ALPA National stinking rich so it got no consideration.

This goes to the big picture, deep blue problems we have with ALPA. All the way back to when ALPA took on the Teamsters. A huge philosophical difference exists between ALPA and what is actually a labor union.

Guys like you who think they've got all the answers and the perfect worldview have no real concept of what a union is suppose to be.

 

[pkober]

It needs to become just like AOPA, an advocacy group that provides Aeromedical, Legal and does PAC stuff for airline pilots. It needs to cease being a bargaining agent for groups because it is grossly ineffective - Aloha case really proved it.

I have allot of problems with ALPA, however their medical, legal, insurance and safety services are outstanding.

Hopefully I, and you, never have to use them but I feel very confident they would be worth the dues paid.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Guys like you who think they've got all the answers and the perfect worldview have no real concept of what a union is suppose to be.

All the answers? Ha!

Hardly... All I know is it is unamerican to not vote. And I and not going to pack up my marbles and go home just cause things are NOT going my way.

That is all I advacate the rest of us do.

Honor and repsect those who have died defending our constitution and the right to democractic voting and work to make the profession better.

Isn't that what you want?

 

[Freight Dog]

Strike sympathies went away with the APA sick out, PATCO and the Bush Admin.

So what does ALPA have left to bargain with? With what can it threaten a management that doesn't bargain in good faith?

How would striking a BK carrier saved your job?

It wouldn't, Rez. It would have protected this profession from abuses that Aloha management and the court took upon us. Those abuses are coming your way now because the precedent has been set.

I question the professionalism and self respect of those working for free.. you have no problem with them, but dispize ALPA for trying gain public sympathy. No?

I have a problem with both. How does a union sanction working for free? Don't you question what that union stands for?

In your situation, would the strike be legal or illegal. If legal.. how would your MEC go about it and how long would it take.

If illegal what would be the consequences...

IOW, why did ALPA-N say no.

The strike would have been legal. There was a challenge of course, from the company. But there doesn't appear to have been any legal basis for not striking.

Rez, I'm really curious. How would you have done this? Your choices are to strike and shut down the travesty on your terms, or you beg and plead for the company to honor seniority and the contract it agreed to way back when, let alone pay those working?

Ok... sounds good. What would you use the money for?

Strike pay, public awareness, you name it... whatever our fearless ALPA leaders deemed appropriate.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So what does ALPA have left to bargain with? With what can it threaten a management that doesn't bargain in good faith?

Good point. But what next? the APA, PATCO, etc... really did more damage than most realize. So we have to work harder to get our strike threat back. Is rejecting ALPA as a whole and submitting to managmeent and gov't the solution?

It wouldn't, Rez. It would have protected this profession from abuses that Aloha management and the court took upon us. Those abuses are coming your way now because the precedent has been set.

That has been my arguement when I got screwed in 2001 with out of seniority furloughs.

However, the end result would've been the same? You just want to make a last stand before the same end game?

(which is fine and respectable... I am just asking if that is where you are comong from....)

I have a problem with both. How does a union sanction working for free? Don't you question what that union stands for?

The pilots are already doing it... I just see ALPA tring to gain public support.... not sanctioning.

The strike would have been legal. There was a challenge of course, from the company. But there doesn't appear to have been any legal basis for not striking.

ok... but what would have been the result of striking? How would that have saved your job in the end?

Rez, I'm really curious. How would you have done this? Your choices are to strike and shut down the travesty on your terms, or you beg and plead for the company to honor seniority and the contract it agreed to way back when, let alone pay those working?

So if you strike and shut down, then the operation stops and bsacially ends it for everyone. Everyone loses.

Or not strike and save some of the operation, some jobs with the intent of getting things going again?

Strike pay, public awareness, you name it... whatever our fearless ALPA leaders deemed appropriate.

I'f I were responsbile for that 500K of dues money, I'd like to know that the strike had a good chance of working.... Do you think it would have?

Public awareness is the flyer you hate....

Look, you have valid points... but total rejection of ALPA isn't valid...

 

[Freight Dog]

Good point. But what next? the APA, PATCO, etc... really did more damage than most realize. So we have to work harder to get our strike threat back. Is rejecting ALPA as a whole and submitting to managmeent and gov't the solution?

PATCO? Wasn't that back in the 80's and how many strikes did we have since then? CAL, UAL, EAL, NWA, CMR? Come on, Rez. APA might have done some damage TO THEMSELVES, and I believe they settled it with the company. But hey look.... they weren't dragged through the BK mud. They're not just trolling BS lines like "Takin' it Back" they are actually talking specifics of what they want to take back and actual numbers. When has ALPA done that?

Also, how long are we going to cling on to PATCO and APA? I just don't see it as a relevant defense for knocking out the last of ALPA's teeth.

That has been my arguement when I got screwed in 2001 with out of seniority furloughs.

However, the end result would've been the same? You just want to make a last stand before the same end game?

(which is fine and respectable... I am just asking if that is where you are comong from....)

Rez, you know precedent setting. You and your union allowed this to happen. In a way, yes, it is making a last stand. Let me put it this way... if all it takes is company going in front of a bankruptcy judge, or claim some force majeur, and watch ALPA fold without a fight, you'll see the pattern continue until ALPA puts an end to it. You put an end to it by striking that bankrupt carrier and nailing the coffin shut.

ok... but what would have been the result of striking? How would that have saved your job in the end?

Walking away with dignity for starters, Rez. Think of it in terms of being mortally wounded, and you cover a grenade blast with your own body to protect your fellow pilots. In other words, you strike to stop this sh*t from happening to you, and every other union pilot out there, ALPA or not. Instead, we got this...

Remember Flying the Line II, where an EAL pilot says - I may not have a job, but Lorenzo doesn't have an airline!

That was the ALPA I want, and it was after PATCO. Instead, we got this abortion of a union.

So if you strike and shut down, then the operation stops and bsacially ends it for everyone. Everyone loses.

Rez, in our case, everyone already lost. The issue at hand was only HOW do we lose? We lost in a modern-day ALPA fashion - we got b*tch-slapped upside down and sideways.

Here's one thing that still gets me pissed. Some of our pilots who flew for free, including some of our union leaders, would say.... what about 300+ other employees who stand to lose jobs if pilots take action? My answer to that is.... have they paid a red penny to ALPA? If they didn't, my concern is not their job. It's my job, my union, and my profession. Are we willing to sacrifice all that for what $8/hour bag-smashers think? I'm not... but apparently ALPA is.

Or not strike and save some of the operation, some jobs with the intent of getting things going again?

So disregard the will of the majority yet again; put up with blatant disrespect and disregard for our contract all in hopes of starting over when the huge part of the company was gutted? I don't know, Rez. I have more dignity, pride and self-respect than that.

I'f I were responsbile for that 500K of dues money, I'd like to know that the strike had a good chance of working.... Do you think it would have?

It would set a precedent that the kind of abuse that you suffered in 2001 and we were suffering won't happen again to another ALPA group. Think it's worth it?

Look, you have valid points... but total rejection of ALPA isn't valid...

I don't totally reject ALPA. I think it's outdated, and over the years, grown irrelevant. It has its purpose, but bargaining is not its forte. It's become worse than a paper tiger.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

PATCO? Wasn't that back in the 80's and how many strikes did we have since then? CAL, UAL, EAL, NWA, CMR? Come on, Rez. APA might have done some damage TO THEMSELVES, and I believe they settled it with the company. But hey look.... they weren't dragged through the BK mud. They're not just trolling BS lines like "Takin' it Back" they are actually talking specifics of what they want to take back and actual numbers. When has ALPA done that?

Also, how long are we going to cling on to PATCO and APA? I just don't see it as a relevant defense for knocking out the last of ALPA's teeth.

What do you mean "we". We are not clinging to PATCO and APA.

However, the gov't, industry and public don't have desire to support us.. that is the point... PATCO and APA blew forthe rest of us...

It is not what we thing.. it is what they think.

Rez, you know precedent setting. You and your union allowed this to happen. In a way, yes, it is making a last stand. Let me put it this way... if all it takes is company going in front of a bankruptcy judge, or claim some force majeur, and watch ALPA fold without a fight, you'll see the pattern continue until ALPA puts an end to it. You put an end to it by striking that bankrupt carrier and nailing the coffin shut.

Me and my union? Once again you blame ALPA. I've told you before.. we live in American, not France.

Nobody cares about their neighbor when he loses his job.

All of a suddent his has happened to you and you want everyone to stop what they are doing and help you out.

Did you join the Aloha SPC committee and prepare for this contigency. What stopped you from going to your MEC and saying 5 years ago.. I want to prepare for Aloha going into BK..

Walking away with dignity for starters, Rez. Think of it in terms of being mortally wounded, and you cover a grenade blast with your own body to protect your fellow pilots. In other words, you strike to stop this sh*t from happening to you, and every other union pilot out there, ALPA or not. Instead, we got this...

I was there, in 2001... taking hits for my fellow pilots... While the company furloughed out of seniority I was doing what I could to help pilots get back on thier feet, even though I was knocked down too and needed a job.

Remember Flying the Line II, where an EAL pilot says - I may not have a job, but Lorenzo doesn't have an airline!

ok...

That was the ALPA I want, and it was after PATCO. Instead, we got this abortion of a union.

So you want a union that gives the middle finger as the entire company goes BK.

Rez, in our case, everyone already lost. The issue at hand was only HOW do we lose? We lost in a modern-day ALPA fashion - we got b*tch-slapped upside down and sideways.

Again... everyone lost... you just want to go down with your middle finger extended...

Here's one thing that still gets me pissed. Some of our pilots who flew for free, including some of our union leaders, would say.... what about 300+ other employees who stand to lose jobs if pilots take action? My answer to that is.... have they paid a red penny to ALPA? If they didn't, my concern is not their job. It's my job, my union, and my profession. Are we willing to sacrifice all that for what $8/hour bag-smashers think? I'm not... but apparently ALPA is.

So ALPA stinks cause they had concern for others over your concern to say "screw you" as the company was shut down?

So disregard the will of the majority yet again; put up with blatant disrespect and disregard for our contract all in hopes of starting over when the huge part of the company was gutted? I don't know, Rez. I have more dignity, pride and self-respect than that.

You haven't shown that striking would have been pragmatic. Only that it would have been emotionally satisfying... and not needed becuase you said you have dignity, pride and self-repsect.. which is good. All of those traits come from within... you certianly weren't dependent on ALPA for those qualities?

It would set a precedent that the kind of abuse that you suffered in 2001 and we were suffering won't happen again to another ALPA group. Think it's worth it?

I don't. I didn't expect ALPA to do wonders with market forces, american culture and BK laws

I don't totally reject ALPA. I think it's outdated, and over the years, grown irrelevant. It has its purpose, but bargaining is not its forte. It's become worse than a paper tiger.

I agree. But I am willing to work with my fellow volunteers to make it better.. to fix it.

 

[Freight Dog]

What do you mean "we". We are not clinging to PATCO and APA.

However, the gov't, industry and public don't have desire to support us.. that is the point... PATCO and APA blew forthe rest of us...

It is not what we thing.. it is what they think.

You keep using PATCO and APA as a reason the public won't support us. Do you honestly think your average Joe Blow would support us even if it wasn't for PATCO or APA? If you do, I have some beach front condos to sell you in Yuma.

Nobody cares about their neighbor when he loses his job.

All of a suddent his has happened to you and you want everyone to stop what they are doing and help you out.

Help me out? I'm done with the airline industry. But help the PROFESSION out and quit being a hypocrite. Why is it necessary for an American airline pilot to leave the U.S. to maintain the same standard of living if his/her airline goes under?

Did you join the Aloha SPC committee and prepare for this contigency. What stopped you from going to your MEC and saying 5 years ago.. I want to prepare for Aloha going into BK..

Ask my MEC. I've been offering to help, but they don't like any outside the box thinking.

I was there, in 2001... taking hits for my fellow pilots... While the company furloughed out of seniority I was doing what I could to help pilots get back on thier feet, even though I was knocked down too and needed a job.

Yessir, I did the same thing in 2003 and 2005. I helped furloughed folks get hired at different places, including Aloha in 2003.

So you want a union that gives the middle finger as the entire company goes BK.

Again... everyone lost... you just want to go down with your middle finger extended...

Nope... unlike my predecessors, I want to protect the guy next to me so this thing doesn't happen to him.

So ALPA stinks cause they had concern for others over your concern to say "screw you" as the company was shut down?

No Rez... ALPA has a duty to line pilots who pay dues. It does NOT have any duty or obligation to bag-smashers. It has the duty to protect this profession, just as they claim. Only pussies who are afraid of making difficult and potentially unpopular decisions hide behind "obligations" to nonmembers and other employee groups.

You haven't shown that striking would have been pragmatic. Only that it would have been emotionally satisfying... and not needed becuase you said you have dignity, pride and self-repsect.. which is good. All of those traits come from within... you certianly weren't dependent on ALPA for those qualities?

Well Rez... you claim that ALPA is a democratic organization. If the majority said... we want to strike because this is wrong, and we have a triggering event, ALPA says no. Pragmatic? What happened to membership will and involvement? Members got involved BY HUGE numbers, only to get negated by ALPA.

You know the definition of stupidity, Rez? Stupidity is repeating the same process and expecting a different result. I guess you could say we were all stupid for believing in ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

FreightDog....

Sounds like you are ready for a DFR lawsuit.... Call the TWA guys....

 

[saabservant]

It is a fact, that alpa representation will always prefer a negotiated settlement over a strike. Period.
I've talked to enough contract administrators(lawyers), mec chairs, and the head of alpa representation to know. And believe me, they have a LOT of influence over an mec and it's chair.
Why?
They do not like the unknown, and they are afraid they(and we) could lose. "live to negotiate another day".
That one sentence is responsible for a great deal of the raping of our contracts and our profession.

Whether this attitude is self-preservation or cowardice, is one's own opinion, and on whose behalf?
Theirs, or ours?

At Mesaba in Jan. of 04' 99% voted to strike if our basic goals were not satisfied at deadline.
At 5 min. prior, the deadline was put on hold because there was "word" that the company was asking about proposals.
This delay went on for over about 24 hours, until a deal was struck.
Some felt we lost leverage, some felt we came out ahead, and did not have to strike. We even got paid for the 2 -3 days the airline was shut down...which was meaningless if we lost leverage.

But it was clear to me who was calling the shots, and who has he most influence, and it is not the rank and file. But that is what we elect reps for, isn't it? To make some tough calls on our behalf.
They just need the courage of our convictions, and the knowledge that management won't shoot their cash cow....

 

[pilotyip]

Mercy Rule

They just need the courage of our convictions, and the knowledge that management won't shoot their cash cow....

They might elect to kill the cow as a mercy rule, as opposed to seeing it strave to death and bleed to death over a longer period of time. After all it is their job to protect the cow from those who do not care about the cow. Those who would like to barbque it right now with no thought about what to eat in the future. BTW This is a cow story not a bull story.

 

[PCL_128]

It is a fact, that alpa representation will always prefer a negotiated settlement over a strike. Period.

True, and there's a reason for that: strikes usually don't work. Time and again, throughout our profession's history, it has been demonstrated that strikes just don't produce dividends in an overwhelming majority of the cases. A strike is a last resort.

 

[Freight Dog]

True, and there's a reason for that: strikes usually don't work. Time and again, throughout our profession's history, it has been demonstrated that strikes just don't produce dividends in an overwhelming majority of the cases. A strike is a last resort.

That really depends on what you're measuring. You see, if the strike threat is real, then you can negotiate from a position of power. Our contracts got raped and pillaged since 9/11, and we all stood idly by and watched.

So what credibility do we have if we don't use it to truly draw the line in the sand, and especially if ALPA demonstrates that they're willing to fly for free like they did at Aloha?

 

[pilotyip]

The 90-day UAW strike did wonders for the American Axel workers in Detroit. 40% pay cut and a reduction in benefits. Agreed to 50% out sourcing of their present production. It was the best they could get, you can not make a silk purse out of the Pig’s ear.

 

[PCL_128]

That really depends on what you're measuring. You see, if the strike threat is real, then you can negotiate from a position of power. Our contracts got raped and pillaged since 9/11, and we all stood idly by and watched.

We stood idly by because the strikes were deemed illegal, for starters. We ended up with better agreements than the BK judges would have forced on us, also. This is called pragmatism rather than foolhardy dick measuring just to make yourself feel better. You have to know when to fold your cards. When the industry is doing well, you can use the threat of a strike to make huge gains, but while languishing in bankruptcy, there's not much you can do under the current system. Contribute to ALPA-PAC to get the BK laws changed, and maybe we'll have some power again.

So what credibility do we have if we don't use it to truly draw the line in the sand, and especially if ALPA demonstrates that they're willing to fly for free like they did at Aloha?

I haven't talked to any Aloha reps or any National reps about the Aloha situation, so I won't make a judgement about the decisions in that case. I don't have the facts. I trust that your reps and the National reps made a smart and pragmatic choice until I learn otherwise.

 

[CopilotDoug]

We stood idly by because the strikes were deemed illegal, for starters. We ended up with better agreements than the BK judges would have forced on us, also. This is called pragmatism rather than foolhardy dick measuring just to make yourself feel better. You have to know when to fold your cards. When the industry is doing well, you can use the threat of a strike to make huge gains, but while languishing in bankruptcy, there's not much you can do under the current system. Contribute to ALPA-PAC to get the BK laws changed, and maybe we'll have some power again.

Right or wrong, this will only assist in lowering pilot pay. There is always going to be another pilot to do it for less (eg Skybus). If pilots are continually willing to throw their hands up if the face of pay cuts and benefits reduction and say, "It beats real work" then
they'll just have to change their style of living to meet their lower income. How many of those ALPA contracts stuck after 9/11?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Was there a pilot strike in US history that was overly successful? A clear win for pilots and a clear loss for management?