The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[saabservant]

delete

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Did you vote in your last LEC election? I say no. Hows that draft resolution coming to slash compensation at the 2008BOD? No but you do meet the requirement for citizen...but you can't even be successful at that...And getting this thing back on track...I submit that pilot groups would be more effective in negotiating their own contracts through seperate inhouse Unions.

fractional pilots are not airline pilots...Fair enough, but can't you learn from them?

So if this is how pilots are.... how you are.... then why do expect the leaders to be different? I'm just giving you the big picture. The different airline pilot groups have their own interests in mind.

I'd rather go down trying to help my fellow pilot...And if I help vote in a contract which benefits me, doesn't that help the other pilots in my group?

Did you vote in your last or any LEC election?

Yes or No?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:
Good job avoiding the question (like I should be suprised).

Of course the individuals should NOT be working for free. I assumed that went without saying, and most people would see that. Obviously I was wrong.

So is there any responsbility there?

YOU, however, asked what we "expect alpa to do." I answered that question. They should, at the very least, have written an article AGAINST working for free. The Aloha pilots are doing it, and alpa should be against it. Do I need to rephrase it a couple of more times for you??

No, your idea was so "off the map" that I didn't bother...

How can an organization write an article AGAINST working for free.... when thier members ARE WORKING FOR FREE!

How about you re-read my response and answer the question.

How about you try and understand what is going on instead of trying to insist that everyone do what you think we should do...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

MR.PRATER, MR. DONATELLI(alpa strike chairman), How about it? How about doing something, anything?

And if the Aloha pilots still work for free?

I am only discussing the possible realities..

 

[CopilotDoug]

Did you vote in your last or any LEC election?

Yes or No?

No Rez (Not under ALPA representation)

 

[saabservant]

I guess I'd hope that our six-figure national officers would have enough influence over an Mec or local council to persuade their members that this is a bad idea...or that they might be able to "order" a halt to this activity. There must be some endorsement by the LEC/MEC involved for this flying, especially if alpa communications is using it....

If they have no such pull, with our own councils/members, how can they have influence over management, congress, TSA, etc?

Again, go to the creditors committee and demand payment, or immediately shut down.

 

[JohnDoe]

How can an organization write an article AGAINST working for free.... when thier members ARE WORKING FOR FREE!

Ummm...pretty darn easy. They come out and say they do not support the notion of members working for no pay. Or, here's a shocker, how about NOT writing an article in support of it!! How is that so difficult? If a few members are doing it how does that mean national cannot come out against it?

And drop the whole aloha pilots "responsibility" arguement. As stated numerous times before, they should not be doing it. But because they are, national should step in and do something.

I am talking about ALPA's responsibility here, not the aloha pilots. To say that alpa has no responsibility here and that it entirely rests on the pilots is absurd. Especially when alpa comes out with an article basically supporting them. What about alpa's responisbility to not write that article supporting them??

Quit deflecting the arguement away from alpa's responsibility. They most certainly have one.

They sure were quick in replacing members of US air's mec. It is sad and unfortunate they sit back, and actually write an article in support of union members working for no pay.

And now they want to increase their dues money by "taxing" their member's 401k contributions. How about they institute pay and job cuts at national like a large majority of their constituents have been taking over the last 7 years.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No Rez (Not under ALPA representation)

Then why all the passion for ALPA issues if you are not a member?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I guess I'd hope that our six-figure national officers would have enough influence over an Mec or local council to persuade their members that this is a bad idea...or that they might be able to "order" a halt to this activity. There must be some endorsement by the LEC/MEC involved for this flying, especially if alpa communications is using it....

Recall that "ALPA National" is not four Officers. It is all the MEC chairmen and EVPs. Everyone gets vote...

If they have no such pull, with our own councils/members, how can they have influence over management, congress, TSA, etc?

External issues are easier at times to deal with than internal issues...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ummm...pretty darn easy. They come out and say they do not support the notion of members working for no pay. Or, here's a shocker, how about NOT writing an article in support of it!! How is that so difficult? If a few members are doing it how does that mean national cannot come out against it?

Are you nuts?

If ALPA says "we don't support it" and ALPA members do it anyway then ALPA loses all creditibility...

And drop the whole aloha pilots "responsibility" arguement. As stated numerous times before, they should not be doing it. But because they are, national should step in and do something.

Unbelievable.... so ALPA national sould be responsible for Aloha pilots but Aloha pilots should not be for Aloha pilots....

Is that right?

I am talking about ALPA's responsibility here, not the aloha pilots. To say that alpa has no responsibility here and that it entirely rests on the pilots is absurd. Especially when alpa comes out with an article basically supporting them. What about alpa's responisbility to not write that article supporting them??

Unreal.... here is the reason why we are so ineffective.

Quit deflecting the arguement away from alpa's responsibility. They most certainly have one.

Aloha pilots have no responsibility?

They sure were quick in replacing members of US air's mec. It is sad and unfortunate they sit back, and actually write an article in support of union members working for no pay.

And yet Aloha piots do it....

And now they want to increase their dues money by "taxing" their member's 401k contributions. How about they institute pay and job cuts at national like a large majority of their constituents have been taking over the last 7 years.

the 401k issue has been on going since last year...

I think it is really a poor time to proceed with the 401k issue.


ALPA National compensation... if cuts were to be made... how does it happen? Does the President say..."In order to share the pain, I am going to take a pay cut... therefore on my next check subtract X%."

IOW, can the President unilaterally make it so?

 

[JohnDoe]

Unbelievable.... so ALPA national sould be responsible for Aloha pilots but Aloha pilots should not be for Aloha pilots....

Is that right??

Man you speak like a true politician. And no that is not a compliment.

Are you actually reading my posts? Why do you keep saying I believe the pilots have no responsibility?

NO!! That is NOT right, and I have stated numerous times that they (the pilots) should not be doing it. YES, they (the pilots) do have responsibilty. BUT SO DOES NATIONAL.

Alpa losing credibility by coming out against members woking for no pay after they are doing it?: You mean like they did for supporting it.....!?! Do you actually think alpa gains any credibility for supporting it's union members working for no pay?

As for the rest of your post (where you continually sugggest I say the pilots have no responsibility), again: yes the aloha pilots have responsibilty. So does alpa. Care to actually talk about alpa's responsibilty? Are you actually saying national has no responsibility in this case?


Paycuts at national: how about the "management" of alpa (the board) institute the cuts just like any other management in the country would. Are you trying to say that the board (or whatever group that is in "charge") has no say in compensation of officers and office staff? Or no say in the staffing levels? Is there nobody at alpa national that can institute employee cuts?? They can come out with a resolution to increase dues, but not one to make cuts??

If times are that lean with regards to dues, then perhaps cuts need to be made. Whoever gets that done, then start doing it. Going to the members for more dues before making cuts is irresponsible. But most are not suprised in this behavior from alpa. You mentioned losing credibility........

 

[Bad-Andy]

is there non union labor working the docks?

Rez,

To answer your question from page 1, no. There are two unions in the US representing all of the longshoremen. One West Coast (Int'l Longshore and Warehouse Union) and one East Coast (Int'l Longshoremen's Association). The ILA operates under one master contract (found here on their website: http://www.ilaunion.org/pdf/MasterContract.pdf ). They also have a veeeeery interesting code of ethics (see part 7: http://www.ilaunion.org/codeofethics.html ).
The ILWU is structured in much the same way, they just happen to be left wing loonies about a lot of things (Marxist in their founding days).

They were able to prevent non-union workers from doing any of their labor from day one. And, anyone that would dare to work for them as non-union could count on a goon squad visiting them (google "longshoremen" and "organized crime" -- some interesting article come up...). Unfortunately, the horse has already left the barn in regards to pilots in the US all coming under one union with one contract. That would have been the answer 50 years ago, but even then we were all too greedy to go for it (as it would have meant gains for some but cuts for others...).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Man you speak like a true politician. And no that is not a compliment.

Are you actually reading my posts? Why do you keep saying I believe the pilots have no responsibility?

NO!! That is NOT right, and I have stated numerous times that they (the pilots) should not be doing it. YES, they (the pilots) do have responsibilty. BUT SO DOES NATIONAL.

Alpa losing credibility by coming out against members woking for no pay after they are doing it?: You mean like they did for supporting it.....!?! Do you actually think alpa gains any credibility for supporting it's union members working for no pay?

As for the rest of your post (where you continually sugggest I say the pilots have no responsibility), again: yes the aloha pilots have responsibilty. So does alpa. Care to actually talk about alpa's responsibilty? Are you actually saying national has no responsibility in this case?

What do you expect ALPA to do? So you are against the effort to gain public sympathy. Got it.

What would you have ALPA do? Let's hear a pragmatic game plan.

Paycuts at national: how about the "management" of alpa (the board) institute the cuts just like any other management in the country would. Are you trying to say that the board (or whatever group that is in "charge") has no say in compensation of officers and office staff? Or no say in the staffing levels? Is there nobody at alpa national that can institute employee cuts?? They can come out with a resolution to increase dues, but not one to make cuts??

IF you really want cuts... it should be in ALPA management. Not the officers. Keep in mind the only officer that is an employee of ALPA is the President. The other three are still on "flight pay loss" so to speak.

So cutting the Presidents pay is really fultile. It may emotionally feel good... but that's it...

You might want to look at the general manager of ALPA. His pay is high IMHO. That is the employee types that you should be looking at...

If times are that lean with regards to dues, then perhaps cuts need to be made. Whoever gets that done, then start doing it. Going to the members for more dues before making cuts is irresponsible. But most are not suprised in this behavior from alpa. You mentioned losing credibility........

Let's stay realistic here....

First of all... Who is Whoever? That you need to know.


Going to the members for dues is not irresponsible. In fact the 401k effort is a push by the EB not the EC. In addition the 401k effort is from last year and its intent is level the playing field. I don't agree with it, but the support is from the EB. The EB as you know is made up mostly of MEC Chairmen... The MEC chairs are volunteers who get no ALPA salary, work more than they would than flying the line...

The problem with the ALPA budget is concessionary CBA's over the last 7 years brought on and mostly responsible by individuals who voted in favor of these cuts.

In addition, the loss of ALPA carriers such as ACA/Indy, ATA, to name only two of many due to market forces has also impacted the ALPA budget.

Finally the USAPA effort. Your fellow USAIR pilots have really made a poor situation worst. The blame on that can go around... from USIR pilots, to ALPA staff and officers to you and me.


Got any pragmatic solutions...??

 

[pilotyip]

yea I will do the job for 1/2 of what is being paid right now, I am a former ALPA member should do just fine. But remember you get what you pay for.

 

[CopilotDoug]

yea I will do the job for 1/2 of what is being paid right now, I am a former ALPA member should do just fine. But remember you get what you pay for.

YIP, you couldn't do much less than what is going on now.