The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[Capi_Cafre']

There's a lesson in here somewhere. I can't even come up with a mental image of ALPA flexing its muscles.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You want ALPA to conduct a nationwide strike to protest the Iraq war?

While I am sure there are some critical supplies in those ship containers that will arrive.... what 48 hours later... I am sure the patrons of Toys R Us and Wal Mart can wait 2 more days to get thier Chinese junk.

Are the Dock Workers bound by the RLA?

IOW how do you want ALPA mucsle to flex?


http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/dockmonkeys.jpg

 

[Capi_Cafre']

You want ALPA to conduct a nationwide strike to protest the Iraq war?

I'd like to see ALPA do one thing, any thing, as a union.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

IOW how do you want ALPA mucsle to flex?

How about publishing a strict outline of what ALPA National wants at United States of America unionized carriers as a minimum level of contract while coordinating those standards with SWAPA and the other independents. And ALPA national vows not to approve a TA that violates those minimums in ANY WAY under any circumstances.

Also, how about doing the same at the regional level and coordinating that with the legacy contracts so no one can under cut the other while raising the standards above FAA minimums.

IE. ALPA MESA cannot undercut ALPA Eagle and ALPA DAL cannot undercut ALPA NWA.

But that would require unity and ALPA just doesn't do UNITY or working for the membership!

 

[AC560]

While I am sure there are some critical supplies in those ship containers that will arrive.... what 48 hours later... I am sure the patrons of Toys R Us and Wal Mart can wait 2 more days to get thier Chinese junk.

It will create rolling delays for 2-3 weeks. This is why them taking one day of is such a big deal. The numbers ran at $2B a day when they got locked out in 2002.

Are the Dock Workers bound by the RLA?

They under the NLRA though in 2002 Bush used Taft-Hartley to put them back to work when the PMA locked them out. If they strike in 2008 they will more then likely end up under RLA it has been being kicked around since 2002.

 

[regionaltard]

It will create rolling delays for 2-3 weeks. This is why them taking one day of is such a big deal. The numbers ran at $2B a day when they got locked out in 2002.



They under the NLRA though in 2002 Bush used Taft-Hartley to put them back to work when the PMA locked them out. If they strike in 2008 they will more then likely end up under RLA it has been being kicked around since 2002.

It doesn't matter what "A" they're under. They get it, and that's all that really matters when push comes to shove.

 

[AC560]

It doesn't matter what "A" they're under.

I didn't say it did. I was responding to Rez O. Lewshun's question.

They get it, and that's all that really matters when push comes to shove.

When push comes to shove they will be sent back to work by the President and Congress will bar them from striking in the future.

 

[regionaltard]

I didn't say it did. I was responding to Rez O. Lewshun's question.



When push comes to shove they will be sent back to work by the President and Congress will bar them from striking in the future.

I'd argue that it's not necessary for a well-informed, motivated, and unified group of workers to strike in order to apply economic pressure.

 

[aircowboy]

The unity among longshoremen is awesome. Those guys tatoo their locals on their kids. Why do you think they still have the power to call a national strike? Because Congress and the president are scared shizless of them. I wish we pilots had half the cajonies and brotherhood in that group. Pilots are their own worst enemies.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How about publishing a strict outline of what ALPA National wants at United States of America unionized carriers as a minimum level of contract while coordinating those standards with SWAPA and the other independents. And ALPA national vows not to approve a TA that violates those minimums in ANY WAY under any circumstances.

And what about jetblue? Non union carriers will become over night the sweet darlings of Wall Street.

IOW... (and I don't know)... is there non union labor working the docks?

If there is no non union labor, then how can you blame ALPA because jet blue is non union, and SWA, APA and others are in house??

Also, how about doing the same at the regional level and coordinating that with the legacy contracts so no one can under cut the other while raising the standards above FAA minimums.

Are you kidding? Too many pilots willing to work for chump change. And what about Skywest. They will grow (even more)....

No.. the trick is flatten the gains and losses of the seniority system. A super senior pilot with the best furlough protection AND all the days off, the best pay rates and work rules... doesn't give a shatt about regional airline pilots on first year pay.




Our seniority system mimics our culture:

Up yours I got mine.​

Maybe one day all this can be yours too.​

Sucks to be you.​

I made peanuts when I was new... so can you.​

Everyone whats radical change. Not going to happen. However a moderate shift is workable. The huge problem is ... How do we get the senior guys to give up the pay and work rules so the junior guys can more equal. First year pay at any major should not be less than $60. $30 at a regional.

Getting the senior guys to give some of it up is not an ALPA problem. It is the individualism and selfishness of our culture. LOOK IN THE MIRROR!

IE. ALPA MESA cannot undercut ALPA Eagle and ALPA DAL cannot undercut ALPA NWA.

Have you been paying attention to DAL/NWA merger?

But that would require unity and ALPA just doesn't do UNITY or working for the membership!

Sure.. your career would be allot better if ALPA...

ALPA, ALPA, ALPA...

if only ALPA would do this for me...

If ALPA didn't do that, then I could....


It sucks being a victim.....

I thought real professionals reject victim status and get off the union tit and fight to protect, defend and promote the profession...


There are so many forces working against ALPA. ALPA is just a little bench warmer amongts the major league players in WashDC.. but you want a home run hit every week.

The membership isn't willing to fight. They don't care to shed individual demands for collective unity. They don't care to learn how the process works and where effectiveness is maximized...

The membership loves to look at other unions in different industries that operate under different (read easier) laws and then claim ALPA is a lame duck because "THEY" at ALPA won't be like dock workers, electricians, plumbers and carpenters.

If you want snake toilets then go be a plumber!

If you want to fly jets and be an effective Air Line Pilot, then quit your whinning, climb out of the foxhole and beat the leadership to the front lines.

When push comes to shove they will be sent back to work by the President and Congress will bar them from striking in the future.

Go back 25+ years.

PATCO did a real good job putting a sour taste in the mouth of gov't and the public. Combined with the perception of the APA sick out... there is little tolerance for organized action.

Consider if we pilots were incredibly effective and did a massive industry shut down.....

What do you think the gov't and managment response would be? There would be tougher laws (treid) passed to prevent strikes again.. just as AC560 suggests.


We are a service economy. It will shut down for no one. Everyone wants thier stuff and they want it NOW. No one else cares about Air Line Pilots.

The only way we are going to be more effective is when we quit claiming victim status for ourselves, start playing smart politics (yes that means NOT voting for McCain), and stop waiting for 'THEY' in ALPA to do something for us...

ALPA pilots act like inner city welfare recipients.... 56,000 independant contractors. You can't blame ALPA for a lack of unity if 56,000 pilots chant the Mantra "up yours I got mine!" Throw in the in house union pilots and the non union pilots and sure... its ALPA's fault.... you gotta blame someone right!

Man up and start taking ownership for your own career. After all...its your career!!

 

[aircowboy]

I agree the blame lies with us pilots. Change will come when each individual does all they can to make it happen. We can sTart by getting junior guys into the MEC and balance out the power controlled by the "I got mine" baby boomers that have repeatedly sold this industry down the road for their gains.

 

[Lear70]

I'd like to see ALPA do one thing, any thing, as a union.

You got age 65, what more do you want?

(hint, that's sarcasm)

 

[AA717driver]

Rez must be on vacation, Prater's shoes don't have their usual mirror-like sheen...

On topic: We as union airline pilots are at the most critical juncture since the founding of the airlines, IMO.

Normal methods are not working--the companies are making the rules and leaving us less and less recourse as time goes on.

We still have the power--'the hand that moves the throttle, rules the airline'. (Appologies to William Ross Wallace...) Management knows this but, they know just as surely, that we won't use our leverage because we're afraid to cross the boundary into 'what we MUST do' rather than 'what we are ALLOWED to do'.

It's up to us. The normal channels won't allow us to gain back what is ours. TC

 

[CopilotDoug]

First, AA717, great post. And ALPA, through normal channels, has led the pilot groups down this path to preserve its sacred credibility.

Until ALPA steps outside the bounds of the RLA...not much is going to change.

 

[ultrarunner]

How about publishing a strict outline of what ALPA National wants at United States of America unionized carriers as a minimum level of contract while coordinating those standards with SWAPA and the other independents. And ALPA national vows not to approve a TA that violates those minimums in ANY WAY under any circumstances.......

......But that would require unity and ALPA just doesn't do UNITY or working for the membership!

No kidding.

ALPA should take some notes from the UAW. And while that union is still faced with more and more of their work going off shore, the union, in general, has it's 'collective crapola' together with respect to representing their membership.

 

[PCL_128]

First, AA717, great post. And ALPA, through normal channels, has led the pilot groups down this path to preserve its sacred credibility.

Until ALPA steps outside the bounds of the RLA...not much is going to change.

It's not about ALPA stepping outside the bounds of the RLA, it's about the membership stepping outside the bounds of the RLA. It would be a huge mistake for the Association itself to advocate illegal actions, but pilots starting up job actions as a grass-roots effort can produce massive dividends without much risk to the union itself. The pilots at ASA, UAL, and now PCL are showing us the way: widespread work-to-rule and slowdown campaigns that start at the grass-roots. I talked to a Pinnacle Captain yesterday that had a 40% on-time record last month. Another had 43%. Many others were around 50%. This is what needs to be done. It can't come from the union, it has to come from the members. If members are willing to stand up for themselves and fight the fight in the trenches, then they can improve the profession. If they want to sit around and wait for Prater to call for an illegal job action that would put himself in jail and bankrupt the Association, then don't hold your breath. That would be a monumentally stupid move. It's up to you, the line pilot, to improve your own leverage. Don't count on someone else to do it for you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez must be on vacation, Prater's shoes don't have their usual mirror-like sheen...

How does what you say above help us as you've said just below?

On topic: We as union airline pilots are at the most critical juncture since the founding of the airlines, IMO.

Normal methods are not working--the companies are making the rules and leaving us less and less recourse as time goes on.

Normal methods? You are right. Take last year for example, the May Rally on the Mall in WasDC. 100 pilots showed up and most of them were elected reps.

The normal method which is pilots doing nothing is not working.

We still have the power--'the hand that moves the throttle, rules the airline'. (Appologies to William Ross Wallace...) Management knows this but, they know just as surely, that we won't use our leverage because we're afraid to cross the boundary into 'what we MUST do' rather than 'what we are ALLOWED to do'.

Right. So if 10,000 pilots showed up last May instead of 100 do we think we would've gotten noticed?

ALPA is not our problem. It is your fellow pilot.

During the BK era your fellow pilots voted democratcially to gut pensions, pay and work rules. All they had to do was vote no.

It's up to us. The normal channels won't allow us to gain back what is ours. TC

If it is up to us, then why blame ALPA?

First, AA717, great post. And ALPA, through normal channels, has led the pilot groups down this path to preserve its sacred credibility.

So you associate and deal with people and organizations that don't have creditability?

Then why would you expect others to do so with ALPA if it had zero creditibility?

Until ALPA steps outside the bounds of the RLA...not much is going to change.

So wrong. ALPA needs creditibility. What has worked at UAL and ASA is a grassroots movement. A safety slow down, HOT (honest on Time) departures etc...

Once the grassroots movement brings management to terms then they deal with the Collective Bargaining Agent, whether it is ALPA, APA, whoever..


It is your fellow pilot... not your union.

No kidding.

ALPA should take some notes from the UAW. And while that union is still faced with more and more of their work going off shore, the union, in general, has it's 'collective crapola' together with respect to representing their membership.

You want ALPA to be more like the UAW.

Other pilots want ALPA to be like longshoreman.

Others want ALPA to be like NYC tranist workers.

Others want ALPA to be like plumbers, electricians and carpenters.


If you want some examples then look at the NJA union. Those guys are effective. But keep in mind NJA has leverage with the company in terms of owner customers.


Instead of wishing we were like subway drivers, longshoremen, plumbers, etc.. why don't we be who we are. Air Line Pilots.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I have said in the past, "most airline pilots are pusseys", these posts explain that opinion nicely.
PBR

 

[BOOZENEWS]

It's not about ALPA stepping outside the bounds of the RLA, it's about the membership stepping outside the bounds of the RLA. It would be a huge mistake for the Association itself to advocate illegal actions, but pilots starting up job actions as a grass-roots effort can produce massive dividends without much risk to the union itself. The pilots at ASA, UAL, and now PCL are showing us the way: widespread work-to-rule and slowdown campaigns that start at the grass-roots. I talked to a Pinnacle Captain yesterday that had a 40% on-time record last month. Another had 43%. Many others were around 50%. This is what needs to be done. It can't come from the union, it has to come from the members. If members are willing to stand up for themselves and fight the fight in the trenches, then they can improve the profession. If they want to sit around and wait for Prater to call for an illegal job action that would put himself in jail and bankrupt the Association, then don't hold your breath. That would be a monumentally stupid move. It's up to you, the line pilot, to improve your own leverage. Don't count on someone else to do it for you.

Or how about ALPA hiring someone under the table (maybe even outside the industry) to do the dirty work and call for a job action. Then they'd keep they're hands clean and something could get done.

 

[CopilotDoug]

It's not about ALPA stepping outside the bounds of the RLA, it's about the membership stepping outside the bounds of the RLA. It would be a huge mistake for the Association itself to advocate illegal actions, but pilots starting up job actions as a grass-roots effort can produce massive dividends without much risk to the union itself. The pilots at ASA, UAL, and now PCL are showing us the way: widespread work-to-rule and slowdown campaigns that start at the grass-roots. I talked to a Pinnacle Captain yesterday that had a 40% on-time record last month. Another had 43%. Many others were around 50%. This is what needs to be done. It can't come from the union, it has to come from the members. If members are willing to stand up for themselves and fight the fight in the trenches, then they can improve the profession. If they want to sit around and wait for Prater to call for an illegal job action that would put himself in jail and bankrupt the Association, then don't hold your breath. That would be a monumentally stupid move. It's up to you, the line pilot, to improve your own leverage. Don't count on someone else to do it for you.

PCL, for once I agree with most of what you're saying here. Would you agree that most pilots are followers when it comes to their profession? There are ways for ALPA to educate the pilot group without doing it publicly.