The Silent Majority at ASA

[Speedtape]

Did you cut and paste this from the latest GW Bush speech about the Iraq war?

"Cut and run"?
"Pu$$ies"?
"Grow some balls"?
"Have faith"?
"TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL!!!"?
"muck sh!t"?
"Selling the farm"?

There isn't even anything in your post to refute. The lack of logic and surplus of profanity and colloquialisms coupled with rhetoric from the MEC supporters speaks volume of the intelligence level of those in charge. You sound like the proverbial jock high school coach giving a locker room pep talk.

If you don't have anything useful to add, then maybe you should abstain. You're just making your side lose credibility.

Will Pennekamp, you got about 5 votes! Who do you speak for?

In regard to F/O comments you and Joey heard and have quoted on this board, You have mischaracterized his words! When you bada bean boys cornerd him, according to sources, he simply cynically parroted something that you said to him once.

According to sources, YOU are the one who once said that the majority of the pilot group was stupid. YOU and only You get the credit for this one! By the way, how many votes did you get? Based on the results, it could be that the majority of the pilot group are not only smarter than stupid, but maybe much smarter than you. They are at least smart enough to not make the same mistake twice.

You do deserve credit for one thing, at least you attended more than one LEC meeting and you did not quit! For that, Thank You for your service! For the record, you got my vote the first time too, but only because you were running on the ticket with Newie!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Will Pennekamp, you got about 5 votes! Who do you speak for?

In regard to F/O comments you and Joey heard and have quoted on this board, You have mischaracterized his words! When you bada bean boys cornerd him, according to sources, he simply cynically parroted something that you said to him once.

According to sources, YOU are the one who once said that the majority of the pilot group was stupid. YOU and only You get the credit for this one! By the way, how many votes did you get? Based on the results, it could be that the majority of the pilot group are not only smarter than stupid, but maybe much smarter than you. They are at least smart enough to not make the same mistake twice.

You do deserve credit for one thing, at least you attended more than one LEC meeting and you did not quit! For that, Thank You for your service! For the record, you got my vote the first time too, but only because you were running on the ticket with Newie!

FR, when you can make a locical, cohesive post not laced with insults, falsehoods you can't prove, heresay, and innuendo, I may respond to you.

But your record speaks volumes of your posts. Enjoy your career, my fellow ASA lifer.

 

[outtahere]

Did you cut and paste this from the latest GW Bush speech about the Iraq war?

"Cut and run"?
"Pu$$ies"?
"Grow some balls"?
"Have faith"?
"TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL!!!"?
"muck sh!t"?
"Selling the farm"?

There isn't even anything in your post to refute. The lack of logic and surplus of profanity and colloquialisms coupled with rhetoric from the MEC supporters speaks volume of the intelligence level of those in charge. You sound like the proverbial jock high school coach giving a locker room pep talk.

If you don't have anything useful to add, then maybe you should abstain. You're just making your side lose credibility.

Useful to add, how about this, when I say I am going to support someone or something I keep my word. When the MEC has taken numerous polls asking the pilot group what they want and then they go after it, that is good. I want them to try and capture my wishes, they are. You, as I recall, were at one time a supporter of the MEC and the general direction they were taking, not to mention a strike if needed. Now you are a scared little b!tch who is afraid of losing your job and just wants the hard part over with so you can go on with your pathetic excuse of a life and not have to work for anything anymore. If I sound like I am giving a pep talk, well I can except that, someone needs to combat the defetism on this board.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Useful to add, how about this, when I say I am going to support someone or something I keep my word. When the MEC has taken numerous polls asking the pilot group what they want and then they go after it, that is good. I want them to try and capture my wishes, they are. You, as I recall, were at one time a supporter of the MEC and the general direction they were taking, not to mention a strike if needed. Now you are a scared little b!tch who is afraid of losing your job and just wants the hard part over with so you can go on with your pathetic excuse of a life and not have to work for anything anymore. If I sound like I am giving a pep talk, well I can except that, someone needs to combat the defetism on this board.

So I'm a "pathetic bitch"? Ok, feel free to put me on your ignore list. But you just proved my point about your intelligence level.

I "switched sides" because I realized that the world has changed around us and our leadership is sticking to a 7 year old plan. The plan needs to change to address the new reality of ASA as a subsidiary of Skywest.

Actually, they aren't even sticking to THEIR plan. Originally this was going to be a QOL contract. They got QOL and suddenly it became all about money. Now they're sticking to their guns on money, and I truly believe that most of our pilots would rather not have "max pay to the last day".

 

[~~~^~~~]

Lets be real. The last election was a touch contest for Captain's Rep. We had a level headed long term incumbant who everyone seems to agree has his head and heart in the right place. Then we had an articulate, smart and very hard working Strike Committee chairman who had visibility and strike contingency funds to help his campaign and a displaced FO Status Rep who had a great track record, also smart and articulate and was the best F.O. Rep I've ever seen. The F.O. Rep. was junior to the other choices and in this time of great risk, pilots voted conservatively. It was a very difficult choice for most of us because each candidate was so good.

Speedtape, we are in too perilous a position to fight amongst ourselves. We need to focus on the important goals and if someone is heading that same general direction they are our friends, not our foes. I think everyone on this board earnestly wants to improvie this profession and save ASA if it can be saved.

Lets take the simple steps that we know will get us closer to our goals. Lets get a SSL resolution on the books. Then we can discuss how to get it implemented and how to encourage our leadership to lead us in the desired direction.

 

[ohplease!]

Actually, they aren't even sticking to THEIR plan. Originally this was going to be a QOL contract. They got QOL and suddenly it became all about money. Now they're sticking to their guns on money, and I truly believe that most of our pilots would rather not have "max pay to the last day".

Just imagine all the QOL improvements we would already be enjoying right now....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Like what- PBS?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Just imagine all the QOL improvements we would already be enjoying right now....

Not only that, but a lot of the scheduling improvements actually DO cost the company money. This isn't being taken at face value by those that argue it's all about the pay rates. There are many forms of compensation outside of direct pay. This has not been communicated well by the union.

Our TOTAL compensation package, which includes the QOL stuff, is already near the top of the industry, even with the rates on the table. All that's missing is scope.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Like what- PBS?

Please cite where PBS became a part of the discussion. According to every rep I've talked to, PBS is DOA. Red Herring.

 

[ohplease!]

Like what- PBS?

spoken like the complete idiot you are.

 

[outtahere]

Not only that, but a lot of the scheduling improvements actually DO cost the company money. This isn't being taken at face value by those that argue it's all about the pay rates. There are many forms of compensation outside of direct pay. This has not been communicated well by the union.

Our TOTAL compensation package, which includes the QOL stuff, is already near the top of the industry, even with the rates on the table. All that's missing is scope.

Where are our trip and duty rigs in this so called top of the industry deal you are speaking of? As far as I know those are yet to be determined. Also, have you looked at our latest pay proposal? It is not at the TOP of the industry, close, but not at the top. Besides, if they are going to ditch the 200's then they shouldn't care about how much we are above SKW. Also, without scope we may as well not have a contract. Our CNC are not dummies, and after 4.5 years they should be good at this.

 

[outtahere]

As for the pay difference, it's true that it won't cost Jerry "much" but it misses the point. He doesn't want to pay us MORE. He has said he WILL transfer if our costs rise above Skywest by ANY amount. Why would he want to give up ANY profits if he doesn't HAVE to?


So you would have our hands tied and all future negotiations based on what skywest costs are? I don't care what their costs are, if a seperate company is what they want then they will continue to have seperate costs. You want the same costs across the board then merge the lists. However, I am not willing to throw away 4.5 years of negotiating to achieve this. If they or we want same lists, then after this contract is ratified we will adress that issue. You can only fight one fight at a time.

 

[Tarzan]

So you would have our hands tied and all future negotiations based on what skywest costs are? I don't care what their costs are, if a seperate company is what they want then they will continue to have seperate costs. You want the same costs across the board then merge the lists. However, I am not willing to throw away 4.5 years of negotiating to achieve this. If they or we want same lists, then after this contract is ratified we will adress that issue. You can only fight one fight at a time.

It is hard to fight a fight after the war has been concluded.

 

[outtahere]

Total RevenueNet IncomeNet MarginASA Net Margin1Q 2007$788,968,000.00$34,788,000.004.41%
This was taken off of OurASA, and you frady cats think they can't afford to cough up a little money. Boy you guys are easily led astray. And Tarzan, what war is concluded?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Total RevenueNet IncomeNet MarginASA Net Margin1Q 2007$788,968,000.00$34,788,000.004.41%
This was taken off of OurASA, and you frady cats think they can't afford to cough up a little money. Boy you guys are easily led astray. And Tarzan, what war is concluded?

outtahere,

Those numbers are Skywest Inc. numbers, not ASA numbers. Some things to ponder with your simplistic view on the subject....

1. Skywest Inc. can realize those numbers with or WITHOUT YOU. Have you noticed the 900s in ATL? Do you think Jerry cares whether there is an ASA sticker or a Skywest sticker on the side? He actually prefers the Skywest sticker, and he gets paid by Delta either way.

2. We only make a profit if we win the flying. If we lose the flying, we lose the profit.

3. That net profit margin is less than one third what it was in 1998. The profitablility of RJ feed isn't what it used to be.

4. This battle is more about whether or not ALPA can dictate to Jerry, and Jerry isn't about to let ALPA dictate things.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Where are our trip and duty rigs in this so called top of the industry deal you are speaking of? As far as I know those are yet to be determined. Also, have you looked at our latest pay proposal? It is not at the TOP of the industry, close, but not at the top. Besides, if they are going to ditch the 200's then they shouldn't care about how much we are above SKW. Also, without scope we may as well not have a contract. Our CNC are not dummies, and after 4.5 years they should be good at this.

If you were to talk to JR, or have read the updates we are "very close" on trip & duty rigs, the only holdup is whether it's applied to scheduled or actual time. So that's pretty much done.

You're right. Thr pay is not at the top, it's actually near the top on the -200 and above all but Horizon on the -700. But it's above all of the DCIs, which whom we are competing for flying in Delta's RFP scheme. We must compete with the other DCIs, and we are in danger of pricing ourselves out of the game with the pay rates proposed, when coupled to the other compensation we've already settled. Like it or not that's our reality.

I believe "we're going to ditch the -200s" either way. The question is whether we're going to ditch them and get replacements or ditch them and watch Skywest Airlines get the replacements. If this deal goes through as proposed, Skywest will be getting our replacements. You still don't "get it" do you?

Agreed on scope. How are we going to get it. I propose we take the current book Skywest rates plus COLA, give up on retro pay/signing bonus, and leverage those to get scope. If you have a better plan to get scope (short of hoping for a release), let's hear it.

Our CNC are not dummies. Unfortunately, they have some out of touch politicians with ridiculously high expectations, and a lot of external pressures tying their hands. The CNC is not now, and never has been autonomous!

 

[~~~^~~~]

3. That net profit margin is less than one third what it was in 1998. The profitablility of RJ feed isn't what it used to be.

Joe you are right on this one. A 4% margin is nothing, the difference between good weather and bad weather can eat that up in a weekend (ask JetBlue) However, the effect of pilot wages on that margin are very small - probably < .0025 The difference between fuel burns at .74 and .76 are enough to pay my wages. I think you are correct that this is as much about ego and power as anything else.

 

[GeekMaster]

Outtahere-

It wouldn't matter if that margin was 1 penny or 1 billion dollars. The problem is that under our current ALPA demands WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE RELEASED! When that ruling comes down in the next few weeks, please open your mind to what it really means. Here's a recap:

The new game in town is "retire and award". That's not an A/C transfer. It gets our airplanes to the SKW side w/o the astronomical transfer costs. Jerry loses no net income at all and brush stroke by brush stroke, paints ALPA out of the picture.

While this is all happening, you get to continue working under your current wage and work rules, which is quite the bargain for SKW. If this entire issue is about retro pay and teaching them a lesson, as much as I'd like to do that too, WE LOST THAT GAME. If this is about One List Scope, the Mona Lisa isn't for sell. Don't be surprised if Mesa settles before we do and WE end up being the new bottom feeder in town.

 

[John Pennekamp]

So you would have our hands tied and all future negotiations based on what skywest costs are? I don't care what their costs are, if a seperate company is what they want then they will continue to have seperate costs. You want the same costs across the board then merge the lists. However, I am not willing to throw away 4.5 years of negotiating to achieve this. If they or we want same lists, then after this contract is ratified we will adress that issue. You can only fight one fight at a time.

Perhaps you can explain in greater detail how we would be "tying our hands in future negotiations". Your post doesn't make sense, and seems to contradict your previous assertions that we can negotiate whatever we want, regardless of what the rest of the industry is doing. So now you're agreeing that we're bound by what Skywest has?

As for not caring what their costs are, you should. Jerry has stated that he WILL transfer our assets if our costs rise above Skywest Airlines'. If you want to believe he's bluffing, feel free, but that's really not in his character. And they are no more a separate company to us then we were under Delta. Were you even here during the PID attempt after Delta bought us? Did you support it?

Kindly quote where I said I "want the same costs across the board then merge the lists". You may be confusing me with Joe Merchant who has said we need to "buy" a merger. I don't necessarily aree with that, but I will say that the two fights are intermingled, since ALPA is using us as a tool to woo the Skywest pilots into voting in ALPA. I have very vocally advocated that we need to buy scope.

Glad we agree that you can only fight one fight at a time. Unfortunately, our local and national reps are fighting several fights at once on the Skywest Inc properties and really doing justice to neither.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Total RevenueNet IncomeNet MarginASA Net Margin1Q 2007$788,968,000.00$34,788,000.004.41%
This was taken off of OurASA, and you frady cats think they can't afford to cough up a little money. Boy you guys are easily led astray. And Tarzan, what war is concluded?

You just don't get it. It's not that they can't AFFORD to, it's that they don't WANT to, and we lack the leverage or 800 pound gorilla to MAKE them.

And even if we did MAKE them, it would be the emd of ASA because Jerry has promised he will transfer our assets. This is not "cutting & running" it's fighting smart and living to fight another day.

What good is "winning" if you die from the battle wounds?