The Silent Majority at ASA

[outtahere]

Not only that, but a lot of the scheduling improvements actually DO cost the company money. This isn't being taken at face value by those that argue it's all about the pay rates. There are many forms of compensation outside of direct pay. This has not been communicated well by the union.

Our TOTAL compensation package, which includes the QOL stuff, is already near the top of the industry, even with the rates on the table. All that's missing is scope.

Where are our trip and duty rigs in this so called top of the industry deal you are speaking of? As far as I know those are yet to be determined. Also, have you looked at our latest pay proposal? It is not at the TOP of the industry, close, but not at the top. Besides, if they are going to ditch the 200's then they shouldn't care about how much we are above SKW. Also, without scope we may as well not have a contract. Our CNC are not dummies, and after 4.5 years they should be good at this.

 

[outtahere]

As for the pay difference, it's true that it won't cost Jerry "much" but it misses the point. He doesn't want to pay us MORE. He has said he WILL transfer if our costs rise above Skywest by ANY amount. Why would he want to give up ANY profits if he doesn't HAVE to?


So you would have our hands tied and all future negotiations based on what skywest costs are? I don't care what their costs are, if a seperate company is what they want then they will continue to have seperate costs. You want the same costs across the board then merge the lists. However, I am not willing to throw away 4.5 years of negotiating to achieve this. If they or we want same lists, then after this contract is ratified we will adress that issue. You can only fight one fight at a time.

 

[Tarzan]

So you would have our hands tied and all future negotiations based on what skywest costs are? I don't care what their costs are, if a seperate company is what they want then they will continue to have seperate costs. You want the same costs across the board then merge the lists. However, I am not willing to throw away 4.5 years of negotiating to achieve this. If they or we want same lists, then after this contract is ratified we will adress that issue. You can only fight one fight at a time.

It is hard to fight a fight after the war has been concluded.

 

[outtahere]

Total RevenueNet IncomeNet MarginASA Net Margin1Q 2007$788,968,000.00$34,788,000.004.41%
This was taken off of OurASA, and you frady cats think they can't afford to cough up a little money. Boy you guys are easily led astray. And Tarzan, what war is concluded?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Total RevenueNet IncomeNet MarginASA Net Margin1Q 2007$788,968,000.00$34,788,000.004.41%
This was taken off of OurASA, and you frady cats think they can't afford to cough up a little money. Boy you guys are easily led astray. And Tarzan, what war is concluded?

outtahere,

Those numbers are Skywest Inc. numbers, not ASA numbers. Some things to ponder with your simplistic view on the subject....

1. Skywest Inc. can realize those numbers with or WITHOUT YOU. Have you noticed the 900s in ATL? Do you think Jerry cares whether there is an ASA sticker or a Skywest sticker on the side? He actually prefers the Skywest sticker, and he gets paid by Delta either way.

2. We only make a profit if we win the flying. If we lose the flying, we lose the profit.

3. That net profit margin is less than one third what it was in 1998. The profitablility of RJ feed isn't what it used to be.

4. This battle is more about whether or not ALPA can dictate to Jerry, and Jerry isn't about to let ALPA dictate things.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Where are our trip and duty rigs in this so called top of the industry deal you are speaking of? As far as I know those are yet to be determined. Also, have you looked at our latest pay proposal? It is not at the TOP of the industry, close, but not at the top. Besides, if they are going to ditch the 200's then they shouldn't care about how much we are above SKW. Also, without scope we may as well not have a contract. Our CNC are not dummies, and after 4.5 years they should be good at this.

If you were to talk to JR, or have read the updates we are "very close" on trip & duty rigs, the only holdup is whether it's applied to scheduled or actual time. So that's pretty much done.

You're right. Thr pay is not at the top, it's actually near the top on the -200 and above all but Horizon on the -700. But it's above all of the DCIs, which whom we are competing for flying in Delta's RFP scheme. We must compete with the other DCIs, and we are in danger of pricing ourselves out of the game with the pay rates proposed, when coupled to the other compensation we've already settled. Like it or not that's our reality.

I believe "we're going to ditch the -200s" either way. The question is whether we're going to ditch them and get replacements or ditch them and watch Skywest Airlines get the replacements. If this deal goes through as proposed, Skywest will be getting our replacements. You still don't "get it" do you?

Agreed on scope. How are we going to get it. I propose we take the current book Skywest rates plus COLA, give up on retro pay/signing bonus, and leverage those to get scope. If you have a better plan to get scope (short of hoping for a release), let's hear it.

Our CNC are not dummies. Unfortunately, they have some out of touch politicians with ridiculously high expectations, and a lot of external pressures tying their hands. The CNC is not now, and never has been autonomous!

 

[~~~^~~~]

3. That net profit margin is less than one third what it was in 1998. The profitablility of RJ feed isn't what it used to be.

Joe you are right on this one. A 4% margin is nothing, the difference between good weather and bad weather can eat that up in a weekend (ask JetBlue) However, the effect of pilot wages on that margin are very small - probably < .0025 The difference between fuel burns at .74 and .76 are enough to pay my wages. I think you are correct that this is as much about ego and power as anything else.

 

[GeekMaster]

Outtahere-

It wouldn't matter if that margin was 1 penny or 1 billion dollars. The problem is that under our current ALPA demands WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE RELEASED! When that ruling comes down in the next few weeks, please open your mind to what it really means. Here's a recap:

The new game in town is "retire and award". That's not an A/C transfer. It gets our airplanes to the SKW side w/o the astronomical transfer costs. Jerry loses no net income at all and brush stroke by brush stroke, paints ALPA out of the picture.

While this is all happening, you get to continue working under your current wage and work rules, which is quite the bargain for SKW. If this entire issue is about retro pay and teaching them a lesson, as much as I'd like to do that too, WE LOST THAT GAME. If this is about One List Scope, the Mona Lisa isn't for sell. Don't be surprised if Mesa settles before we do and WE end up being the new bottom feeder in town.

 

[John Pennekamp]

So you would have our hands tied and all future negotiations based on what skywest costs are? I don't care what their costs are, if a seperate company is what they want then they will continue to have seperate costs. You want the same costs across the board then merge the lists. However, I am not willing to throw away 4.5 years of negotiating to achieve this. If they or we want same lists, then after this contract is ratified we will adress that issue. You can only fight one fight at a time.

Perhaps you can explain in greater detail how we would be "tying our hands in future negotiations". Your post doesn't make sense, and seems to contradict your previous assertions that we can negotiate whatever we want, regardless of what the rest of the industry is doing. So now you're agreeing that we're bound by what Skywest has?

As for not caring what their costs are, you should. Jerry has stated that he WILL transfer our assets if our costs rise above Skywest Airlines'. If you want to believe he's bluffing, feel free, but that's really not in his character. And they are no more a separate company to us then we were under Delta. Were you even here during the PID attempt after Delta bought us? Did you support it?

Kindly quote where I said I "want the same costs across the board then merge the lists". You may be confusing me with Joe Merchant who has said we need to "buy" a merger. I don't necessarily aree with that, but I will say that the two fights are intermingled, since ALPA is using us as a tool to woo the Skywest pilots into voting in ALPA. I have very vocally advocated that we need to buy scope.

Glad we agree that you can only fight one fight at a time. Unfortunately, our local and national reps are fighting several fights at once on the Skywest Inc properties and really doing justice to neither.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Total RevenueNet IncomeNet MarginASA Net Margin1Q 2007$788,968,000.00$34,788,000.004.41%
This was taken off of OurASA, and you frady cats think they can't afford to cough up a little money. Boy you guys are easily led astray. And Tarzan, what war is concluded?

You just don't get it. It's not that they can't AFFORD to, it's that they don't WANT to, and we lack the leverage or 800 pound gorilla to MAKE them.

And even if we did MAKE them, it would be the emd of ASA because Jerry has promised he will transfer our assets. This is not "cutting & running" it's fighting smart and living to fight another day.

What good is "winning" if you die from the battle wounds?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Agreed on scope. How are we going to get it. I propose we take the current book Skywest rates plus COLA, give up on retro pay/signing bonus, and leverage those to get scope. If you have a better plan to get scope (short of hoping for a release), let's hear it.

Agreed, but wouldn't that be a cut from the already agreed on 700 rates? How much of a cut would that be?

I'm trying to figure out if the pilots would accept that. The IP's in particular are going to get cut around 40%. When Jerry Atkin came into the crew lounge and said our IP's were over paid by $70,000 each I thought he lost his lucidity. However, it is working out pretty much the way he had planned. Pretty amazing.

On another note, can anyone say for sure if ASA is waiving the 2 weeks notice for captains with more than 5 years of longevity? I had heard that rumor, but looking at open time, it is hard to believe.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Agreed, but wouldn't that be a cut from the already agreed on 700 rates? How much of a cut would that be?

I'm trying to figure out if the pilots would accept that. The IP's in particular are going to get cut around 40%. When Jerry Atkin came into the crew lounge and said our IP's were over paid by $70,000 each I thought he lost his lucidity. However, it is working out pretty much the way he had planned. Pretty amazing.

On another note, can anyone say for sure if ASA is waiving the 2 weeks notice for captains with more than 5 years of longevity? I had heard that rumor, but looking at open time, it is hard to believe.

That's a good point. I don't have the number of what the so-called "overide" on the -700 is at Skywest. Truly, I was referring to the -200 when I said that. I feel we should go for the present -700 rate plus COLA, not a raise, and the present Skywest rate on the -200 plus COLA. And as I said, sell the $25 million or more we are asking in retro for scope.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe you are right on this one. A 4% margin is nothing, the difference between good weather and bad weather can eat that up in a weekend (ask JetBlue) However, the effect of pilot wages on that margin are very small - probably < .0025 The difference between fuel burns at .74 and .76 are enough to pay my wages. I think you are correct that this is as much about ego and power as anything else.

Fins,
Pilot wages are very small in the scheme of things, but labor costs as a whole are the single largest controllable cost. From a management standpoint, it isn't wise to just give labor what it wants. While management tends to over reach in one direction, labor tends to do the same in the opposite direction. The fact remains that margins are decreasing and as the competition heats up for regional jet providers, margins will continue to get squeezed.

We agree that this is about control, but sadly ALPA has already given up the control. ALPA isn't in a position any longer to call the shots. It is time to circle the wagons and regroup.... we are hardly in a position to charge the hill at this point.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

The IP's in particular are going to get cut around 40%. When Jerry Atkin came into the crew lounge and said our IP's were over paid by $70,000 each I thought he lost his lucidity. However, it is working out pretty much the way he had planned. Pretty amazing.

Regarding the IPs, I don't have much sympathy. At Skywest, they are "Line pilots assigned to the training department". At ASA they are career instructors who think they are better than the line pilots.

Personally, I think it would do the training department good to get some of the "lifers" out. We need new blood over there, and if the pay cut cleans the training department out, so be it. They will never have a problem finding new ASA line pilots to staff the training department. Being an instructor is more than just the pay, it's also about the resume material and job satisfaction of being able to mold our pilots.

If they're only in it for the money, then maybe they don't need to be there.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Were the instructor's "left behind"? I thought the campaign promise was "no pilot left behind".... Please say it ain't so.... a broken campaign promise...

The next one to be broken will be "full retro pay"... that too will go by the wayside.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Were the instructor's "left behind"? I thought the campaign promise was "no pilot left behind".... Please say it ain't so.... a broken campaign promise...

The next one to be broken will be "full retro pay"... that too will go by the wayside.....

Let's stay on the issue...

I am fine if they break the retro pay promise as long as we get something useful in lieu of it... like SCOPE.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Let's stay on the issue...

I am fine if they break the retro pay promise as long as we get something useful in lieu of it... like SCOPE.

In a way it is staying on the issue.... The silent majority should have voted for the other coalition... The current administration is simply trying to deliver on it's promises.... They promised the moon...

I appreciate the "buyers remorse" that is now setting in, but what did everyone expect when they elected the "hardliners"?

Either people have changed there mind since the election, or they didn't really understand the issues involved, or the majority still wants the moon.... Which one is it?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Either people have changed there mind since the election, or they didn't really understand the issues involved, or the majority still wants the moon.... Which one is it?

That really is the question we've been trying to answer here, isn't it?

 

[ohplease!]

Either people have changed there mind since the election, or they didn't really understand the issues involved, or the majority still wants the moon.... Which one is it?

I vote for this answer....and they didn't care enough to get involved. They still don't. Just wait and see how few of them show up on the 21st.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That really is the question we've been trying to answer here, isn't it?

It is, and it is the one I am trying to figure out.

Fins and I agree on many things, and we mostly agree on what happened from a national level. You and I have disagreed on most things in the past, but now we are singing from the same hymnal in terms of the contract.
Yet all 3 of us have a different opinion on how to procede.

I advocate threatening ALPA decertification because ALPA national is controlling our negotiations to prove a point to Skywest.

You seem to be leaning towards a recall effort.

Fins wants us to hold hands at the local level and sing kumbaya.

The fact is, the current administration is a hard line administration, with only DU being a moderate. He really doesn't fit in with the other 3. In addition, the current administration has already broken it's "no pilot left behind" promise, and will likely break it's "full retro" promise. They are also taking their marching orders from ALPA national.

If these are what the majority wants, then this will continue. If it isn't, then there has to be a change on the local level.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I vote for this answer....and they didn't care enough to get involved. They still don't. Just wait and see how few of them show up on the 21st.

I agree that this is the most likely culprit...

 

[Tarzan]

Outahere...

The fight you want to keep fightingis conclude badly. The current political climate and business models have already predicted it. The way the union is trying to do this is a losing effort. Ecspecially when the parent company will be able to move a good portion of our airplanes with no financial repercussions.

Fighting one battle at a time sounds good but which one to fight first? Sell the pay rates and retirement for scope. Without, the war has already finished and the hardliners refuse to admit it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Outahere...

The fight you want to keep fightingis conclude badly. The current political climate and business models have already predicted it. The way the union is trying to do this is a losing effort. Ecspecially when the parent company will be able to move a good portion of our airplanes with no financial repercussions.

Fighting one battle at a time sounds good but which one to fight first? Sell the pay rates and retirement for scope. Without, the war has already finished and the hardliners refuse to admit it.

Well said Tarzan. We (ASA and ALPA national) need to address this scope/fee for departure/portfolio issue first. Then and ONLY THEN, can we move forward with meaningful improvements to the rest of the contract. If ALPA can't do it or refuses to it, then ALPA needs to be replaced with someone who can.

Too many people are putting the "cart before the horse"..... The "cart" is our
contract, and the horse is control of the flying thru scope. Without the horse, the cart will not move.....

 

[outtahere]

First of all you all have taken my words out of context. Joe M. Those numbers that I posted were ASA numbers taken from the Performance Plus parameters and were ASA's 1Q numbers. Secondly, John P. as I recall, YOU said that we should only expect Skywest pay, implying that from now till the end of time our rates would have to be a direct reflection of Skywests or we would lose A/C. I call Bullsh!t. If Jerry wants to start replacing our 200's with 700's thinking he can just slide all new A/C to Skywest, well fine, thats when you throw out the single carrier petition. Let us also not forget that thanks to Frank Lorenzo there are laws on the books now prohibiting union busting. In other words if Jack A$$ Jerry starts replacing our aircraft to Skywest then we file a lawsuit and I am pretty sure we could win that. Let us also not forget that all of this whipsaw material gets REALLY expensive!!! How far will Jerry be willing to take it to save a few bucks on pilot pay? As fins mentioned pilot pay is a VERY small portion of the bottom line, personally I think Jerry is bluffing! This really all boils down to a big game of chicken, and you guys are blinking!

One last thing, let us not forget that ASA, that is ASA, must operate 80% of the DCI flying out of ATL. Granted if we are still doing 80% it is very close to being less. But, as far as I know we are still entitled to the 80%.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins wants us to hold hands at the local level and sing kumbaya.

Here are the chords for your easy review:
A A A D A
Kumbaya My lord, kumbaya

A A A A D E
Kumbaya My lord, kumbaya

A A A D A
Kumbaya My lord, kumbaya

D A E A
Oh Lord, Kumbaya

The G,C,D, Am version sounds better if you use suspended chords and falls right into your favorite Buffet tunes which are all G,C,D,Am variations. (Easier to remember when the crowd is buying the drinks)

I think the last election went the way most elections do when there is a huge external threat - CONSERVATIVE. How else do you explain Bush being in the White House? But the conservatives at ASA were smart enough to see and adopt much of the platform the outside coalition developed.

I think a decertification drive, or a recall, will be blood in the water for Atkin and crew. The effect will be to undermine the legitimacy of whatever representive structure ends up negotiaing the contract. If Atkin wanted to get rid of ALPA he knows a merger would trigger a representational vote. If Atkin wanted to horse trade, he would show up in the crew lounge and talk to the pilots about SkyWest rates for OneList.

But that is not what he has done. In fact, he told me that a combined contract could not cherry pick and would have to offer an economic incentive to join the lists. He also told us that SkyWest was removing any overlap in management structures so that the remaining management would be the size of what would have to be in Atlanta anyway. Then there is the huge variable of whether ASA has to be kept separate for a potential sale, or return to Delta. Everyone says no, the objective signs are yes and flip if I can figure it out. My crystal ball was worked on by James and hasn't worked right since he cleared the deferral.

So, I'm with Joe that force during section 6 negotiations is the only way to achieve what is needed to save ASA. The current team is the most "force" we can muster. It is our job to ensure they properly represent us.

Lets get the resolution going to get our request on the record and someone let me sign a Proxy since I can not be there.

 

[JoeMerchant]

First of all you all have taken my words out of context. Joe M. Those numbers that I posted were ASA numbers taken from the Performance Plus parameters and were ASA's 1Q numbers.

Outtahere,

Go back to where you got those numbers. Just above the numbers you quoted, you will see the following statement:

The total revenue and net income numbers are for SkyWest, Inc. and include the combined results for both ASA and SkyWest Airlines.

 

[outtahere]

To all naysayers! Our contract is not a bargaining tool to rid the world of RFP injustice. Granted the portfolio package is crap for labor, but business is still business and I can't see Jerry spending several million to replace ASA just to save a couple million!! You guys are truly scared of a myth. The myth of Jerry Atkin!!!! BOOOOOOH!!!! Run for your lives!!!!! If Jerry wants to bring down ASA then so be it, but I will not sell out as you have done. And as far as a silent MAJORITY!! HA HA HA HA! I think not!!! The majority of the people I speak with are as pissed as I am and are willing to sacrafice a little pain and anguish to get all things need to make this a good contract. That means Scope, Rigs, Retirement, Pay, and let us not forget RETRO, LOTS OF IT!!!! How come none of you guys are on the ALPA board spreading your vile. Is it because you are afraid of the real majority? If you would like to carry on this debate as men and not on an anonymous board PM me and I will give you my name and phone number and we will continue.

Joe M I know you are on the ALPA boards and as much as what you say pi$$es me off, atleast you have the balls to put your name on it. As for the rest of you, Pathetic.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think the last election went the way most elections do when there is a huge external threat - CONSERVATIVE. How else do you explain Bush being in the White House? But the conservatives at ASA were smart enough to see and adopt much of the platform the outside coalition developed.

The pilots elected a largely hardcore radical group that favors the status quo. You can't want the platform of one party and elect the other party. That isn't how it works.

I think a decertification drive, or a recall, will be blood in the water for Atkin and crew. The effect will be to undermine the legitimacy of whatever representive structure ends up negotiaing the contract. If Atkin wanted to get rid of ALPA he knows a merger would trigger a representational vote. If Atkin wanted to horse trade, he would show up in the crew lounge and talk to the pilots about SkyWest rates for OneList.


So, I'm with Joe that force during section 6 negotiations is the only way to achieve what is needed to save ASA. The current team is the most "force" we can muster. It is our job to ensure they properly represent us.

Lets get the resolution going to get our request on the record and someone let me sign a Proxy since I can not be there.

From the last P2P call, this CNC is holding out for a trophy contract to show the Skywest pilots that ALPA has value. They also do not believe a single list is legal, and the CNC Chairman stated on the record that he didn't even know how MESA, CHQ, and EGL did it. Either JR is lying, or he is unqualified for the job... there is no other answer. Other than Danny, the current group isn't going to do what you want Fins, and no resolution will change that UNLESS it has some teeth. Either recall or decertification, or BOTH, but status quo will remain in effect until some pressure is applied....

 

[~~~^~~~]

The pilots elected a largely hardcore radical group that favors the status quo. You can't want the platform of one party and elect the other party. That isn't how it works.....

The population of the US re-elected Bush despite every objective reason not to. They elected his father and he signed the Americans With Disabilities Act and the Family Medical Leave Act. Heck, Nixon gave us the National Endowment for the Arts. So yes, I would say that is in fact how it has worked in the past. Guess they needed a reason to put the word "irony" in the dictionary.

The MEC and CNC know that management analyzes their public releases as much as we analyze and read into what management tells the pilots. As a result you will never hear a concession in a public release. However, when I speak with our Representatives one on one, they seem to have good situational awareness. I can not explain JR's comment - he impressed me as being smarter than that when he did safety work. Fatigue maybe?

Instead of a decert, why don't we give our CNC some relief. No team runs their players for the entire game and management changes players keeping our CNC off balance. So why not use management's tricks and change up our CNC? They have done a great job, let them rest for an inning and get ready for the seventh inning stretch.

 

[outtahere]

Joe, you were right about the performance numbers, I stand corrected. However, both companies are making plenty of money.