The Silent Majority at ASA

[MELIT]

MELIT: No one flew any struck work. Your continued posting of a allegation everyone knows is not true reduces your already low credibility to below Hello Newman levels.

ASA and Comair were not merged because ALPA thought management could be whipsawed and the Delta MEC did not want a large, powerful, force owned by the same employer making waves for them.

You flew their airplanes with their passangers.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Pennekamp and all-

Be careful on the single carrier petition. It doesn't necassarily force a single pilot list. If successful, it would simply force Skywest Inc. to recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent for Skywest Air. If the Skywest pilots wanted, they could simply negotiate their own CBA between Skywest and ALPA at their own rates and work rules; not so different than the way ASA and Comair operated when we were both Delta owned.

If a single carrier petition was successful, the Skywest Air pilots would have to collectively "want" a single list too. It's not so different than the PID we did before with ASA, Comair, and Delta. When it came down to it, it was the Delta "pilots" who didn't want a single list and therein secured the votes from the rest of the Master Counsel to "kill it". (yes I was here for that)

Unfortunately, from a legal standpoint, Joemerchant is right about a single list. (no matter how bad you hate him) Outside of section 6 negotiations, NO ONE has been successful in forcing anybody into a single list.

Since I personally don't think me, ALPA, this pilot group or the skywest pilot group wants to pay the cost of a single list in Section 6, we're going to need to seriously consider other methods of job protection.

I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO SETTLE FOR SUBSTANDARD PAY THOUGH. If we don't acheive CHQ scale on the CR2, that doesn't mean we've taken a concession. SKW CR2 rate "IS" in the average range....and it's a pretty considerable raise for what the 50 seat guys are making. Tag on top of that, the current "slim pickins" in the pilot market, it's not bad job security either.

Here's one last thing to consider. This contract, whatever it ends up being is probably going to have a duration of about 3 years. The market forecast looks REALLY GOOD for pilots three years down the road. If we drag this out another year or two, that may change. Getting it done now will posture us for our next section 6 down the road.

Well said Geekmaster. You are correct about a single carrier petition, it only requires all pilots at Skywest Inc. to be represented by a single bargaining agent.... it doesn't even have to be ALPA. There would be a representational election if the petition is successful and all ASA and Skywest pilots would vote on the new agent. It could be ALPA, Teamsters, or SAPA. A whole new round of negotiation would start, and it would take quite some time to settle...

 

[GeekMaster]

Ok now I'm ticked. How did ASARJman get in the penalty box. I had posted direct questions to him and wanted his reponse.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Pennekamp and all-

Be careful on the single carrier petition. It doesn't necassarily force a single pilot list. If successful, it would simply force Skywest Inc. to recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent for Skywest Air. If the Skywest pilots wanted, they could simply negotiate their own CBA between Skywest and ALPA at their own rates and work rules; not so different than the way ASA and Comair operated when we were both Delta owned.

If a single carrier petition was successful, the Skywest Air pilots would have to collectively "want" a single list too. It's not so different than the PID we did before with ASA, Comair, and Delta. When it came down to it, it was the Delta "pilots" who didn't want a single list and therein secured the votes from the rest of the Master Counsel to "kill it". (yes I was here for that)

Unfortunately, from a legal standpoint, Joemerchant is right about a single list. (no matter how bad you hate him) Outside of section 6 negotiations, NO ONE has been successful in forcing anybody into a single list.

Since I personally don't think me, ALPA, this pilot group or the skywest pilot group wants to pay the cost of a single list in Section 6, we're going to need to seriously consider other methods of job protection.

I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO SETTLE FOR SUBSTANDARD PAY THOUGH. If we don't acheive CHQ scale on the CR2, that doesn't mean we've taken a concession. SKW CR2 rate "IS" in the average range....and it's a pretty considerable raise for what the 50 seat guys are making. Tag on top of that, the current "slim pickins" in the pilot market, it's not bad job security either.

Here's one last thing to consider. This contract, whatever it ends up being is probably going to have a duration of about 3 years. The market forecast looks REALLY GOOD for pilots three years down the road. If we drag this out another year or two, that may change. Getting it done now will posture us for our next section 6 down the road.

Point taken on the SCP.

Regarding opting for Skywest rates: a current MEC member said publicly that even that "isn't enough money on the table to buy scope".

I don't think Skywest rates would do it. In light of that, what do you suggest?

Agreed about settling now and positioning ourselves for 3 years for now.

 

[Tarzan]

You flew their airplanes with their passangers.

Everything ASA did during that strike was sanctioned the Comair MEC.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Ok now I'm ticked. How did ASARJman get in the penalty box. I had posted direct questions to him and wanted his reponse.

He fell on his sword.

He keeps trying to "out" everyone who disagrees with him as leverage to shut us up, since he can't counter our arguments with logic and fact. The mods frown on that.

Unfortunately for him, he isn't even outing us with the right names, so it's all for naught.

 

[MELIT]

Which is why you remain on my and most other members ignore lists.

It doesn't matter. You lost 700 and 900's. Macon is closing. Delta took the ramp. Everyone is being move to the Delta hanger. Writing is on the wall. I guess picketing SGU wasn't that effictive. In the end there will only be one list anyway.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Point taken on the SCP.

Regarding opting for Skywest rates: a current MEC member said publicly that even that "isn't enough money on the table to buy scope".

I don't think Skywest rates would do it. In light of that, what do you suggest?

Agreed about settling now and positioning ourselves for 3 years for now.

JP,

This is why I included POSSIBLE decertification of ALPA in my petition. There are two reasons that ALPA is making the combination of lists harder.

1. They don't want a single list until AFTER the Skywest pilots vote in ALPA so that there isn't a new representational election. This is problematic because I don't think the Skywest pilots will vote ALPA in.

2. Jerry doens't want ALPA on the property. Don't shoot the messanger, but it is a fact. I think he could be convinced in exchange for showing ALPA the door. This doesn't mean "non-union", but rather an in house union. I'm not saying this is the best answer, but I'm not sure ALPA wants a single list now, and even if they did, I'm not sure they could deliver it....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Y'all need to join the club, put MELIT with his asinine inflammatory rants on your ignore list and stop responding to him. Make him go away or pay another $10.

 

[outtahere]

You guys truly make me sick. Almost five years into this process and right when we are getting close to wrapping this thing up and you all are ready to cut and run. You all sound like a bunch of Mesa pilots. Atleast they had a valid argument, JO was xfering planes to freedom and hiring pilots to staff an alter ego carrier, JA xfered FOUR and then stopped and you all are quaking in your boots with aching Pu$$ies. How pathetic. Grow some balls and quit trying to undermine OUR Mec. No matter how chessy the saying is it is true, TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL!!! Now stand with us and do YOUR job and lets get this thing done. Have faith for a little while longer. If we don't get released then we can start planning an alternative, but that doesn't mean selling the farm in the hopes we get to stay on and muck sh!t. Now is not the time to abandon OUR MEC.

 

[John Pennekamp]

JP,

This is why I included POSSIBLE decertification of ALPA in my petition. There are two reasons that ALPA is making the combination of lists harder.

1. They don't want a single list until AFTER the Skywest pilots vote in ALPA so that there isn't a new representational election. This is problematic because I don't think the Skywest pilots will vote ALPA in.

2. Jerry doens't want ALPA on the property. Don't shoot the messanger, but it is a fact. I think he could be convinced in exchange for showing ALPA the door. This doesn't mean "non-union", but rather an in house union. I'm not saying this is the best answer, but I'm not sure ALPA wants a single list now, and even if they did, I'm not sure they could deliver it....

But the problem is that our pilots have no stomach for a decert of any kind. I believe the "silent majority" WOULD oppose such. Most of them view ALPA as the "best worst option".

Also your reputation with our pilots is not the best. Such would simply be seen as another veiled attempt to kill the union.

The best option is to take decertification out completely. Substituting a recall of the reps is a viable option, and my be worthwhile, regardless.

 

[GeekMaster]

To bad about ASARJman. There is no chance whatsoever he will out me. In so many ways, I wish I could just "out myself". I very much understand this industry and ALPA's stucture and would like to serve and make a difference. I am confident those who know me on line would have nothing negative to say when I'm not around.

Pennekamp-

If it was still a strict race to the bottom, your advisors would be right in that matching SKW rates wouldn't be enough to save our jobs. So, consider this.

The company has indicated clearly that if rates are brought in line, they are willing to negotiate limited amounts of scope. It is VERY QUICKLY becoming a pilot's market. The A/C transfer cost is real expensive. Having a guaranteed, known competitive cost puts us back in the "retire and award" game. Skywest Inc. stands incredible benefits from having two certificates. It allows them to openly compete in otherwise "no compete" markets with their respective carriers.

That's about the most realistic scope we can acheive right now.

 

[JoeMerchant]

But the problem is that our pilots have no stomach for a decert of any kind. I believe the "silent majority" WOULD oppose such. Most of them view ALPA as the "best worst option".

Also your reputation with our pilots is not the best. Such would simply be seen as another veiled attempt to kill the union.

The best option is to take decertification out completely. Substituting a recall of the reps is a viable option, and my be worthwhile, regardless.

I just don't understand why we continue to support a national union that is largely ineffective and is running our negotiations to our detriment. The USAirways pilots are threatening decertification, and the USAirways MEC has retained the RJDC lawyer.... ALPA national appears to be listening to them now. Self-help can be used against the union as well as against management, and it is effective...

Regardless of my reputation, most of my predictions have come true. As you pointed out earlier, working within the system doesn't work. The system favors the status quo, and 60% of the pilots don't care one way or the other..... they will be gone shortly (or so they think)....

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Melit-

Can't you post anything that resembles a valid argument? Instead, you resort to mudsliging. How professional of you. If you cannot retort with something worthwhile, then don't waste our time.

 

[Speedtape]

It doesn't matter. You lost 700 and 900's. Macon is closing. Delta took the ramp. Everyone is being move to the Delta hanger. Writing is on the wall. I guess picketing SGU wasn't that effictive. In the end there will only be one list anyway.

1. We lost 4 700's (the dogs), and we gained incrementally more. We never had 900's on the property, so we lost none. However, once the contract is complete, we will have them too.

2. Delta took the ramp. It should have happened a long time ago. In one day, the oversight of former ramp agents by Delta Lead Agents, had tremendous impact on the ramp. Direct supervison is what it always needed. ASA (SKYWEST, INC.) lost nothing--but a lot of headaches!

3. Delta wants the Delta hanger back. Most likely, the residual staff required in ATL will move to the old NorthWEST hangar. This is a cost savings that everyone should agree with.

4. One list--your inference suggests that your lists will be the only list. Personally, I don't want on your list. ASA will be around because the United agreement necessitates it. THERE IS NO WRITING ON THE WALL! ASA will survive.

New issue: To date, Skywest Airlines has not been able to win approval to fly to Mexico after several attempts. Why is that? I guess ASA will be needed to at least do the Mexico flying--and probably out of SLC, too. Get off your high horse, BRO!

 

[John Pennekamp]

You guys truly make me sick. Almost five years into this process and right when we are getting close to wrapping this thing up and you all are ready to cut and run. You all sound like a bunch of Mesa pilots. Atleast they had a valid argument, JO was xfering planes to freedom and hiring pilots to staff an alter ego carrier, JA xfered FOUR and then stopped and you all are quaking in your boots with aching Pu$$ies. How pathetic. Grow some balls and quit trying to undermine OUR Mec. No matter how chessy the saying is it is true, TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL!!! Now stand with us and do YOUR job and lets get this thing done. Have faith for a little while longer. If we don't get released then we can start planning an alternative, but that doesn't mean selling the farm in the hopes we get to stay on and muck sh!t. Now is not the time to abandon OUR MEC.

Did you cut and paste this from the latest GW Bush speech about the Iraq war?

"Cut and run"?
"Pu$$ies"?
"Grow some balls"?
"Have faith"?
"TOGETHER WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL!!!"?
"muck sh!t"?
"Selling the farm"?

There isn't even anything in your post to refute. The lack of logic and surplus of profanity and colloquialisms coupled with rhetoric from the MEC supporters speaks volume of the intelligence level of those in charge. You sound like the proverbial jock high school coach giving a locker room pep talk.

If you don't have anything useful to add, then maybe you should abstain. You're just making your side lose credibility.

 

[Speedtape]

I just don't understand why we continue to support a national union that is largely ineffective and is running our negotiations to our detriment. The USAirways pilots are threatening decertification, and the USAirways MEC has retained the RJDC lawyer.... ALPA national appears to be listening to them now. Self-help can be used against the union as well as against management, and it is effective...

Regardless of my reputation, most of my predictions have come true. As you pointed out earlier, working within the system doesn't work. The system favors the status quo, and 60% of the pilots don't care one way or the other..... they will be gone shortly (or so they think)....

So your point suggests that the democracy is run by the proactive minority.

Just curious--has your claim been settled? When and if you win, then maybe your credibility will rise.

Most of your predictions have come true? Name them, so you can get credit.

So 60% of the pilots don't care? Count me in the other 40%! Which group do you and Pennekamp fit in?

MOD INPUT: THE NEXT PERSON TO ATTEMPT TO "OUT" SOMEONE ON THIS THREAD WILL BE BANNED FOR GOOD. AND..... IF I CONTINUE TO GET 5 REPORTED POSTS A DAY FROM THIS THREAD IT WILL BE LOCKED DOWN. DEBATE FACTS, AND TRY TO BE CIVIL.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why do the good intentions of getting a single seniority list resolution passed have to be muddled up with decertification, or a recall? They are completely separate issues.

I want a single seniority list AND I want my union and current representatives. I want to encourage my representatives. They already know the downside risks and have more of a vested interest in this place than almost anyone else.

Does Rep Status or CNC leadership look good when you interview with airline management for your next job? I don't know, but I would venture a guess that if they lead ASA into a work stoppage they will have a tough time convincing Delta that they hold the virtues of "Safety, Efficiency and Customer Service" above all else.

Let us start with a simple resolution. We will worry about step two in its proper time. But we need to get a SSL on the table.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I just don't understand why we continue to support a national union that is largely ineffective and is running our negotiations to our detriment. The USAirways pilots are threatening decertification, and the USAirways MEC has retained the RJDC lawyer.... ALPA national appears to be listening to them now. Self-help can be used against the union as well as against management, and it is effective...

The reason is that 99% of the pilots don't look at the big picture. It's a common tendency among pilots to only look out for #1. This is why all pilot unions tend to be weak in comparison to other trade unions. Be that as it may, it's what we have to work with.

Regardless of my reputation, most of my predictions have come true. As you pointed out earlier, working within the system doesn't work. The system favors the status quo, and 60% of the pilots don't care one way or the other..... they will be gone shortly (or so they think)....

Agreed, but for the same reasons as above, most of the pilots take what you say as a grain of salt, BECAUSE of your reputation. They fail to note when your predictions come true, because you have been villiamized by the union for so many years, it's taboo to agree with you, or risk ostracization like what I've faced lately. The political machine is very strong.

 

[John Pennekamp]

So your point suggests that the democracy is run by the proactive minority.

Just curious--has your claim been settled? When and if you win, then maybe your credibility will rise.

Most of your predictions have come true? Name them, so you can get credit.

So 60% of the pilots don't care? Count me in the other 40%! Which group do you and Will Pennekamp fit in?

All democracies are run by the proactive minority. If you need proof, what was the voter turnout of the last few presidential elections? How about the last few union elections?

And here's another one to chew on: are we a true democracy (both as a union and a country) or a representational democracy? Think about that for a minute and what it means before you answer.

And your tired attempts to out me speak voumes about your inability to counter me with logic and fact. Such strongarm tactics to embarass me into submission only act to make "your side" look weak and scared. Your posts aren't doing them any favors.

FWIW, I don't really see this as sides. We should be all puling together... if we were all on the same side this would be over with. The MEC and its vocal supporters like you have divided the pilot group by making it an "us vs. them" issue.

And yes, I feel I am speaking what the majority (the 60% who don't vote or come to meetings) have been saying.