The Silent Majority at ASA

[ASARJMan]

Joey doing what he does best. Can't have it his & her way, so attack attack attack eh John?

 

[FORESTGUMP]

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MEETING NOTICE​

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DATE:
Thursday, June 21, 2007
TIME:
11:30 a.m. *
PLACE:
ASA Strike Center
3420 Norman Berry Drive
4th Floor
Hapeville, GA 30354
(404) 209-8566





If you are in that "silent majority", you should be here and you should ask questions and state your opinion on the matter.

It would be nice to see more people there than the same 20 alpaites that are always there hanging around eating all the chick fil a and pizza that you are paying for and stroking the egos of those mec/cnc members.

Its no wonder the mec thinks they are doing what the majority wants.
The only ones telling them anything are their "cronies" and they ALL think you're idiots. Maybe you are. Maybe you're not. They will never know if you don't go and tell them.

P.S. expect to be shouted down and told you are just plain wrong. They don't like it when you disagree with them.

Thats all I have to say about that. Have a nice day!

 

[outtahere]

As a P2P member, never once have I been shouted down at for having a different opinion. Also, I see alot of uninformed posts from some on this board, it seems alot of "pass it on" rumor has infiltrated the thinking of some. If you want the TRUE lowdown talk to a P2P rep. Also, for the 100,000,000,000,000,000 time, WE CAN NOT JUST WALK OUT JUST BECAUSE WE TOOK A STRIKE VOTE AND IT PASSED. WE MUST BE RELEASED AND COMPLETE A 30 DAY COOLING OFF PERIOD, THEN WE CAN LEGALLY STRIKE. THE UNION CANNOT JUST SAY FUK IT AND WALK OUT, THEY WILL GET SUED AND POSSIBLY GO TO JAIL.... Now personally I would be willing to go to jail to cost these bastards some money at the GO, but I don't rank that high on the ALPA list. Finally, if you want to believe everything the GO has to say, and take it as holy truth over what your FELLOW PILOTS are telling you, then in my opinion you are an idiot. And this pilot group seems to be full of them.

 

[FORESTGUMP]

As a P2P member, never once have I been shouted down at for having a different opinion. Also, I see alot of uninformed posts from some on this board, it seems alot of "pass it on" rumor has infiltrated the thinking of some. If you want the TRUE lowdown talk to a P2P rep. Also, for the 100,000,000,000,000,000 time, WE CAN NOT JUST WALK OUT JUST BECAUSE WE TOOK A STRIKE VOTE AND IT PASSED. WE MUST BE RELEASED AND COMPLETE A 30 DAY COOLING OFF PERIOD, THEN WE CAN LEGALLY STRIKE. THE UNION CANNOT JUST SAY FUK IT AND WALK OUT, THEY WILL GET SUED AND POSSIBLY GO TO JAIL.... Now personally I would be willing to go to jail to cost these bastards some money at the GO, but I don't rank that high on the ALPA list. Finally, if you want to believe everything the GO has to say, and take it as holy truth over what your FELLOW PILOTS are telling you, then in my opinion you are an idiot. And this pilot group seems to be full of them.

See what I'm talking about? It didn't take long either did it? That is truly how they feel about you.

 

[outtahere]

See what I'm talking about? It didn't take long either did it? That is truly how they feel about you.

While I admit that came off a little harsh, one of you silent majority types please explain to me how you can believe this bunch of slimy lying managers we have at ASA over your own "ELECTED!!!!!" reps? I just don't understand! I gaurantee you that Bryan Liarbreque, King Tutt, nor yes man Scotty Hall have your best interest in mind when they are espousing all of the rhetoric they spew. They want your A$$ bent over so they can sodomise you freely with no restraints from a pesky contract. Atleast our reps and CNC are trying their best to keep you a virgin and prevent the A$$ Fuking that some of you seem to be begging for.

 

[JoeMerchant]

While I admit that came off a little harsh, one of you silent majority types please explain to me how you can believe this bunch of slimy lying managers we have at ASA over your own "ELECTED!!!!!" reps? I just don't understand! I gaurantee you that Bryan Liarbreque, King Tutt, nor yes man Scotty Hall have your best interest in mind when they are espousing all of the rhetoric they spew. They want your A$$ bent over so they can sodomise you freely with no restraints from a pesky contract. Atleast our reps and CNC are trying their best to keep you a virgin and prevent the A$$ Fuking that some of you seem to be begging for.

I was in the D lounge when our FO rep. told me, and two other people, that the current proposal would pass by about 60%. That is a majority. For the record, I don't like the current proposal, but it would pass. That was OUR side saying that the majority would vote FOR the current table positions, not management. He went on to say that the majority of pilots are "idiots". So management are idiots, the majority of pilots are idiots, and only the ALPA true believers are intelligent.... according to ALPA.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joey doing what he does best. Can't have it his & her way, so attack attack attack eh John?

Pot have you met kettle? Just reporting the facts, you decide......

 

[JoeMerchant]

To avoid a strike and the complete destruction of their airline seems like a pretty good reason to me, as a SkyWest shareholder.

Another reason is that it would reduce costs by eliminating management redundancies and expenses of transferring aircraft across Certificates. Further efficiencies could be gained by reducing the number of required spares, increasing crew utilization, reducing training costs and increasing schedule efficiencies inherent in the larger scale of the operation. Also, recovery time following an interruption of normal operations would be reduced allowing SkyWest to offer Delta, United, and their other business partners a higher quality product preferred by the travelling public.

But the real reason is to uphold SkyWest and Jerry Atkin's reputation for fair dealing and integrity.

Or he could just be a Frank Lorenzo wanna be and enjoy similar long term "success" and reputation.

Fins,
1. What if we aren't released? Is there a "plan B" if we don't get released? What is our alternate?

2. The last P2P conference call, JR stated that we couldn't negotiate a single list, and he didn't know how Mesa, CHQ, and EGL did it.... doesn't instill much confidence does it?

 

[737 Pylt]

Pot have you met kettle? Just reporting the facts, you decide......

Your facts, unfortunately, have to go through your rjdc filter!
Time and time again, your facts have proven to be complete BS!

737

 

[79%N1]

Here are some quotes from the recent Pilot2Pilot conference call:

"We are comfortable with our position with the board (NMB)"

"The only logical outcome is a release"

We are:
"quite far apart on rates"
"very far on retro"
"very far on scope"

JR, the CNC Chairman said:

"We are trying to get a better contract to show Skywest - We want to look good to Skywest so they will see value in ALPA"

A question was asked about how Mesa, CHQ, and EGL achieved single lists. JR said "I don't know, you will have to ask Danny or Nick". Is everyone comfortable with the fact that the Chairman of the CNC didn't know how other carriers achieved a single list?

The only value the Skywest pilots are seeing in ALPA is the windfall of watching ALPA carrier planes transferred to them. The more we fight over a very few unrealistic goals, the more they benefit.

I'll say this once.....ASA's negotiations should have NOTHING to do with impressing Skywest's pilots, whatsoever!

This is about ASA's pilots.....period. Where are these guys getting this stuff, if it is indeed true?

 

[GeekMaster]

The only value the Skywest pilots are seeing in ALPA is the windfall of watching ALPA carrier planes transferred to them. The more we fight over a very few unrealistic goals, the more they benefit.

I'll say this once.....ASA's negotiations should have NOTHING to do with impressing Skywest's pilots, whatsoever!

This is about ASA's pilots.....period. Where are these guys getting this stuff, if it is indeed true?

I will add this to the reasoning.......ASA's negotiations should have NOTHING to do with impressing Prater and ALPA national, whatsoever!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe:

If we aren't going to get released, what is our alternate?

Would you want a vote on a contract which does not include scope?

You think a vote now would get a 60% vote. Well it would not if I could help it - by continuing to try to inform our pilots why scope is necessary.

Many people agree with your position and I did also until management made it clear that they are not going to negotiate scope with "all the money on the table."

Scope costs SkyWest Inc. nothing if they plan on committing to the ASA pilot group. It is a fair exchange since many of us have invested our money, our time and our sweat equity in building this place.

Conversely, if all the money in the world is not enough to buy scope, then we know that management already has a plan to strip even more of the operation away from the pilots.

And if "all the money on the table is not enough to buy scope" then force is the only alternative. We have to get released.

My alternate is walking away and working somewhere else. Without scope, we would have to go to that alternate eventually. We have plenty of hold fuel and holding is a better decision than trying to drop in to the security of a contract that is below minimums.

However, none of this is likely to happen. We are very close to an acceptable contract. If a cooling off period is proferred I think this could get done very quickly and SkyWest could be back to quarterly conference calls where Mr. Atkin is at the table talking up the good news.

The unfortunate truth of this protracted contract negotiation is that it really was not necessary. Being bound under the NMB control gives management an economic incentive to drag things out, particularly in uncertain times where management and ownership changes alarmingly frequently. Once released, the structured negotiations come down and Management and Pilots have the flexibility to really swap and horse trade.

If you want scope and ( I believe you want it as bad as I do ) then supporting our MEC/CNC and getting released are the best way to get what you want. I'm certainly open to alternatives, but I have not seen one which looks better than what has aleady been printed - now where is that release?

 

[GeekMaster]

Joe:

If we aren't going to get released, what is our alternate?

Would you want a vote on a contract which does not include scope?

You think a vote now would get a 60% vote. Well it would not if I could help it - by continuing to try to inform our pilots why scope is necessary.

Many people agree with your position and I did also until management made it clear that they are not going to negotiate scope with "all the money on the table."

Scope costs SkyWest Inc. nothing if they plan on committing to the ASA pilot group. It is a fair exchange since many of us have invested our money, our time and our sweat equity in building this place.

Conversely, if all the money in the world is not enough to buy scope, then we know that management already has a plan to strip even more of the operation away from the pilots.

And if "all the money on the table is not enough to buy scope" then force is the only alternative. We have to get released.

My alternate is walking away and working somewhere else. Without scope, we would have to go to that alternate eventually. We have plenty of hold fuel and holding is a better decision than trying to drop in to the security of a contract that is below minimums.

However, none of this is likely to happen. We are very close to an acceptable contract. If a cooling off period is proferred I think this could get done very quickly and SkyWest could be back to quarterly conference calls where Mr. Atkin is at the table talking up the good news.

The unfortunate truth of this protracted contract negotiation is that it really was not necessary. Being bound under the NMB control gives management an economic incentive to drag things out, particularly in uncertain times where management and ownership changes alarmingly frequently. Once released, the structured negotiations come down and Management and Pilots have the flexibility to really swap and horse trade.

If you want scope and ( I believe you want it as bad as I do ) then supporting our MEC/CNC and getting released are the best way to get what you want. I'm certainly open to alternatives, but I have not seen one which looks better than what has aleady been printed - now where is that release?

Fins:

I can't answer for Joe, but I'm sure he will answer in time on his own. I do however have thoughts on your post.

We will NOT be released based on our current negotiating position. I have listed earlier in this thread what I believe is acheivable. I think it's somewhere around page two or thereabouts.

Even if ASA agreed to ALL the scope that ALPA currently has on the table, it would not save your job. Why? Because ALPA is basing its scope demands on "percentages" of A\C transfers before it kicks in. The new game in town is going to be retiring CR2's back to Bombardier at fair market value while DCI "awards" new A\C to Skywest. I know the CR9's have limits but the 70's have a long way to go before reaching caps. THAT'S NOT A TRANSFER AND WILL HOLD UP IN COURT. Case history proves it.

I agree with you that the current offer should NOT be sent out for vote and 60% ratification is NOT acceptable. I and the "silent majority" simply think that our negotiation efforts should simply be refocused on more reasonable and acheivable criteria. (see that same post earlier in this thread)

Yes the company has made it clear that ONE LIST IS NOT FOR SALE. With that in mind, unless we can get a release, the best scope we can get is to be close to SKW in costs. We don't have to be cheaper because it costs a lot of money to transfer airplanes. The market itself will prevent JA from coming back and slashing SKW rates and holding them in our face. Remember, he doesn't want ALPA or TEAMSTERS over there. To slash their pay anytime soon, would all but guarantee them a union vote.

 

[ASARJMan]

I was in the D lounge when our FO rep. told me, and two other people, that the current proposal would pass by about 60%. That is a majority. For the record, I don't like the current proposal, but it would pass.

C'mon JB, how can someone guarantee, or even say, that what is on the table now will pass? What does that person have to back that up? Do I think it would pass? Possibly, but only because our pilots are tired of the protracted negotiations, and some are buying into your craziness, along with Will's, ohPlease's, and others. Some are scared because ASA isn't growing, see other DCI carriers in ATL, and 900s going to SKYW and CMR. But basically I think alot of pilots here are fed up, both with the company and the union on the negotiations. But if you're placing your bets with the company, and not the union, then you deserve what you will get.

 

[ASARJMan]

Pot have you met kettle? Just reporting the facts, you decide......

YOUR versions of the facts JB. Now you wouldn't twist those facts to upstage the union would you?

 

[ASARJMan]

The more we fight over a very few unrealistic goals, the more they benefit.

Unrealistic goals? Do you even know where we are right now?

A small raise on the 700, a raise bringing the 200 up to industry standard, retro (co has offered $2 mil, a start), trip/duty rigs (you enjoy the unproductive pairings they build you?), SCOPE (co refusing so far) and COLA (which the company is refusing too) are fair and realistic goals.

Maybe you haven't noticed your healthcare premiums and deductables are up, and gas is over $3 bucks. That burger you eat on your overnight has gone up, but the company doesn't want to increase per diem very much. Unrealistic indeed!

 

[~~~^~~~]

ASA RJ Man - you aren't kidding. Everything I own is paid for and even as an eight year Captain the ASA pay only covers the groceries, utilities and what I save for retirement. I don't know how in the world younger pilots who have to carry a mortgage, or college loan, make ends meet. Our family hangs on to the bottom rung of the middle class because between my wife and I we hold down three and sometimes four jobs. But should that be necessary? All of our friends from college earn between $150,000 and $200,000 a year with less training, less responsibility, fewer certification hurdles and a heck of a lot less time away from home.

It is no wonder that no one in senior management has a son, or daughter, working in this industry.

I certainly understand the competitive nature of this business. Our managements' goal for this airline is Mesa. Well that is not the goal of the airline's employees. It is a tough situation for sure.

I think we are backed in a corner. No scope, no growth and a de-facto 30% concessionary contract just based on inflation. I can not vote for that.

One way, or another, I am getting my ducks in a row to leave. That is what management wants anyway. Experience, wisdom and judgement used to be valued when the operations manual was 40 pages instead of 300. Now the airline thinks it has a rule for everything and experience and judgement are just unnecessary expenses.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I don't know how in the world younger pilots who have to carry a mortgage, or college loan, make ends meet.

We don't. Pay check to pay check personally, and that's not going to cut it. Throw in trying to raise a few little ones and it gets even worse. Glad to see the American Dream is alive an well in the airline industry...NOT! :angryfire

 

[~~~^~~~]

Play with this:

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/data/us/calc/

Thanks to Co Pilot Doug....

 

[FORESTGUMP]

ASA RJ Man - you aren't kidding. Everything I own is paid for and even as an eight year Captain the ASA pay only covers the groceries, utilities and what I save for retirement. I don't know how in the world younger pilots who have to carry a mortgage, or college loan, make ends meet. Our family hangs on to the bottom rung of the middle class because between my wife and I we hold down three and sometimes four jobs. But should that be necessary? All of our friends from college earn between $150,000 and $200,000 a year with less training, less responsibility, fewer certification hurdles and a heck of a lot less time away from home.

It is no wonder that no one in senior management has a son, or daughter, working in this industry.

I certainly understand the competitive nature of this business. Our managements' goal for this airline is Mesa. Well that is not the goal of the airline's employees. It is a tough situation for sure.

I think we are backed in a corner. No scope, no growth and a de-facto 30% concessionary contract just based on inflation. I can not vote for that.

One way, or another, I am getting my ducks in a row to leave. That is what management wants anyway. Experience, wisdom and judgement used to be valued when the operations manual was 40 pages instead of 300. Now the airline thinks it has a rule for everything and experience and judgement are just unnecessary expenses.

well *******, looks like you chose the wrong profession. If your future is really that bleak, just leave. Go do whatever it is that your friends do to earn 150-200k.

 

[ASARJMan]

well ******, looks like you chose the wrong profession. If your future is really that bleak, just leave. Go do whatever it is that your friends do to earn 150-200k.

Now there's a real intelligient response! I suppose you want to accept a contract that basically has no real raises, no COLA the entire length of contract, no trip/duty rigs, no real increase in per diem, and meaningful scope to protect our jobs? Well you hopefully are in the minority. Soon the NMB will rule whether we are offered a proffer and then the 30 day cooling off period will start. I don't want to strike but I will before I lower my expectations of a fair and just contract. And, I will not leave as you suggest.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Play with this:

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/data/us/calc/

Thanks to Co Pilot Doug....

Fins,
Have you compared the average price of an airline ticket over the past 30 years, or the pay rates of mainline widebody captain over the past 30 years? We have deflation in the airline industry.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Airline ticket prices not keeping up with inflation


Submitted by WWAY on 18 April 2007 - 8:20pm.READ MORE: News | Airlines | Business | Consumer | Transportation
Story body

CONSUMER WATCH -- Buying an airline ticket today is a lot different than it was 25 years ago. With websites like Orbitz and Expedia and low-cost carriers like AirTran and Jet Blue competing for your business times have changed.
One thing that hasn't changed: it still feels expensive to buy an airline ticket. It seems we are paying more these days. But when you take inflation into account, flying is surprisingly less expensive.
Booking an airline flight and searching for the lowest fare? You might be surprised to learn that in many cases, ticket prices have actually not kept pace with inflation.
Air travel analyst Terry Trippler conducted a random survey of schedules and airfares comparing ticket prices of today with those from 25 years ago for 27 different cities.
When 1982 prices are adjusted for inflation, Trippler found that today's prices are actually lower.
In 1982 there were three roundtrip flights from Boston to Los Angeles, with the lowest fare costing $298. Adjusted for inflation, that ticket should cost $635 today, but Trippler found that, not only are there nine roundtrip flights instead of three, the lowest fare was just $199.
Flying from New York to Miami? In the eighties there were 21 flights, with the lowest fare costing $188. That same ticket should cost $400 in 2007, but Trippler found that the lowest fare was actually $158 and there are now 25 nonstop flights.
So take some comfort when paying for that ticket. You could be paying a lot more.

 

[~~~^~~~]

True - but senior airline management pay seems to be hanging in there with inflation just fine. Especially at United and NorthWest.

Joe - you bring up many, many, good points but I can't figure out how we achieve your goals without supporting our representative structure. Management has said no to OneList and no to effective scope. They have told us we can't buy it. Is there any other way, other than force? To use force we have to get released.

The alternative of signing the Company's current table offer does not fix the #1 thing on our agenda. Really, how do we get what we need?


ForrestGump: Shame on you for resorting to trying to "out" people. I'm trying to get out of your way and think plan A, and even the contingency plans for plan A are coming together. Still, ASA was a great little airline and had a bright future. It is hard to just sit back and watch all the potential drain away. At heart, I'm a team kinda guy and just because my plan worked out, doesn't mean that I don't care about our profession, or our friends who serve at ASA. It is never about Fins, I'm irrelevant to the big picture. It is about our airline, our pilots and the profession.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fins,
While you have had faith in our local leadership, I have not for several years now. Danny seems to get it, but the rest never really have. We are watching another repeat of ACA/Air Wisc./CMR/PDT/ALG/CCAir/Mesaba..... De ja vu all over again.

No single MEC of a subsidiary of a portfolio player (among 9 or so) can stand up to the economics of reverse pattern bargaining. With MESA and others chipping away at one side, and mainline pilots underbidding us on the other side, we are in a short squeeze... Leaving the same coach in with a failing game plan, regardless of how well intentioned that coach is, is still setting up for failure....

I'm not sure this genie can be put back in the bottle, but I am not willing to become the next sacrifice in the "portfolio wheel of misfortune"...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yes - but how do we fix it? Are you advocating "scope by lowest costs?"

You are right on the history, even as I read back through Flying the Line, ALPA's "victories" usually came with shutting down the airline and everyone finds other jobs.

Just be clear for guys like me who don't get it. Are you saying our only hope is to come in below Mesa, or whoever has the lowest rates? That target moves so much, I can't keep up with who's concessions out did the other guys concessionary deal.

According to our President "Longevity is killing our airline." I don't think we can fix that no matter what we do.

Really, what is your solution? How do we achieve that solution?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yes - but how do we fix it? Are you advocating "scope by lowest costs?"

You are right on the history, even as I read back through Flying the Line, ALPA's "victories" usually came with shutting down the airline and everyone finds other jobs.

Just be clear for guys like me who don't get it. Are you saying our only hope is to come in below Mesa, or whoever has the lowest rates? That target moves so much, I can't keep up with who's concessions out did the other guys concessionary deal.

My first choice has ALWAYS been to stop this crazy competing within a brand for flying. ALPA has absolutely refused to even stop the bleeding here, much less heal the wound itself.

In the absence of ALPA refusing to deal with brand scope/competing within a brand, then I believe we need to compete... Does that mean being the lowest? NO. However in the absence of true brand scope, I also do not want to be the highest in the portfolio. The track record is not good for carriers with the highest cost structure in a portfolio....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Agreed - but I think we all know ASA's pay rates are not going to be industry leading, or even keep up with a quarter of inflation.

ALPA's scope loss is water under the dam for the purposes of this contract. This crisis is so immediate that we don't have the luxury of trying to point fingers. We need all hands on deck to repel boarders.

So we are back to scope. Will you sign a contract without it?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fins we still agree on most thing, I just have given up on this ship just quite yet...... Do you still have that spreadsheet of earnings comparisons? At 14 ATR pay, and assuming going to the 700 in 2 years, how long does it take me to break even at Delta? Thanks in advance if you still have that spreadsheet.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed - but I think we all know ASA's pay rates are not going to be industry leading, or even keep up with a quarter of inflation.

So we are back to scope. Will you sign a contract without it?

That depends. Again I don't think we will get a release, and I also don't believe we are even attempting a single list based on recent comments from the CNC chairman. I don't believe ALPA national wants a single list at this time because it would trigger a representational election, and they are afraid of losing the ASA pilots in addition to the Skywest pilots.

In the absence of a release, any meaningful scope will have to be "bought", and I'm not sure people are willing to pay what it would cost. In fact, it would probably cost so much, that it would largely be irrelevant as our costs would be low enough that we would grow despite the scope.

There is also the issue of JA vs. ALPA. This is a huge battle between Jerry and ALPA... the stakes are high on both sides. At this point I am willing to hitch my wagon to the Jerry train and cut ties with ALPA. Will that work? I don't know, but I don't think it could be any worse that the status quo....