the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[Fozzy]

Yep....it was all the non-union carriers that seemed to weather the down turn and keep their jobs, same pay or slightly reduced pay, keep pensions, etc. While all the union carriers were laying off their pilots, reducing pay, taking away their pensions etc.. And not only that, but they had to pay thier union dues to have all that stuff taken away. Does not seem to be a very good return on your money. Seems to be a no brainer to me.

Who!?! I would like some references please.

 

[Iam3rd]

I guess I should also correct myself. I know that some of the airlines have an "in-house union". I would have to lump them into the non-union group because they do not act like your typical union. They actually work with mgmt. and do whats best for the company as a whole....at least most of them do anyway.....and I think you know who they are....Southwest-in house union, Airtran-in house union, Jetblue-non-union, etc.

When it comes to Teamsters, ALPA, etc. (which they are just another form of mgmt.) negotiating contracts, all you have is one mgmt. fighting against another mgmt. looking out for their self interest and not the interests of the company as a whole (every one involved).

 

[pilotpat]

All talking out of their a$$es...you guys (Iam3rd, B19) need to find some peace. Unions are simply not the evildoers you attempt to make them out to be. My God, this is sofa king boring.

 

[B19 Flyer]

All talking out of their a$$es...you guys (Iam3rd, B19) need to find some peace. Unions are simply not the evildoers you attempt to make them out to be. My God, this is sofa king boring.

Nothing is evil until you've been done wrong. Once that happens, you remember it for the rest of you life and you want to make sure history doesn't repeat itself. You haven't been laid off, taken any pay cuts or lost your pension yet have you? Oh, and to address the peace issue, I have peace. It's existed ever since I was smart enough to go to work for a non-union carrier.

 

[CA1900]

Nothing is evil until you've been done wrong. Once that happens, you remember it for the rest of you life and you want to make sure history doesn't repeat itself.

Yes, which is exactly why I vowed my next job would be as a unionized pilot with a strong contract and a determined pilot group. Hence my job at Netjets.

You haven't been laid off, taken any pay cuts or lost your pension yet have you?

Yes, all of the above happened at my prior non-union employer, and I missed the layoff by just a few numbers.

"Never again" indeed.

 

[Diesel]

Hey Iam3rd the union is currently deep in labor relations talks to make sure we get the most productivity out of our contract on both sides. More profit is a win/win for the company and the union pilots.

Too bad you don't understand that.

 

[Iam3rd]

Hey Iam3rd the union is currently deep in labor relations talks to make sure we get the most productivity out of our contract on both sides. More profit is a win/win for the company and the union pilots.

Too bad you don't understand that.

Like I said before Diesel, history speakes for itself regardless of what you and the unions intensions are now. Fact is the non-union carriers and carriers with in-house unions made out so much better than the carriers with ALPA and Teamsters after 9/11. Its a proven fact if you look at the numbers and the state of each company after 9/11. And as always history shows us that people don't seem to learn from history and that history will repeat itself. They always think that its going to be different or that they are the exception.

I will take my chances without the union.....but I don't expect you to understand......

 

[Galaxy]

I noticed how the anti union folks here can only speak of things that some other union did to them. Why not compare ALPA to IBT Airline Division to the IBT 1108. The ONLY Union that supports any fractional is the IBT 1108. Please name one thing that they have done against their members. The 1108 can be compared to what government was in the very begining. Of the people for the people. They are all full time line pilots donating their time serving their brothers and sisters for a better future The mgt at ALPA and unfortunatly the Airline Div IBT has become what politicians are today.

So again I ask..since this is the frac forum....forget about what ALPA, Delta, NWA, US Air has done to you.....that is just stereotyping.....what has the 1108 done against the members?
The answer is nothing... They have made working for the company a better, safer, and more profitable environment.
1108 is my Union and they speak for me

 

[Diesel]

1108 is my union. They are our in-house union.

I think I understand union vs non-union shops more than you can ever understand.

 

[pilotpat]

Oh...I've been laid off from a flying job before. Non-union company, too. It just hasn't tainted me in a bad way. If you had peace, then you wouldn't be trolling the boards union bashing.

Galaxy: Excellent point about your union, by the way.

 

[fischman]

Hey Googester. Why the name change? (Iam3rd)

 

[Diesel]

Damn that was his other name. I couldn't remember it and its been driving me nuts.

Hmmm maybe someone googled teachers strike?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Oh...I've been laid off from a flying job before. Non-union company, too. It just hasn't tainted me in a bad way. If you had peace, then you wouldn't be trolling the boards union bashing.

How many of your friend's careers were rearranged at the same time? Any suicides? Any divorces? I have peace, but there are those that haven't been around long enough to understand the historical and very negative effect of unions on the entire airline industry. There are a couple of fracs that haven't been infiltrated yet and I think that it's healthy to talk about it, don't you?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Like I said before Diesel, history speakes for itself regardless of what you and the unions intensions are now. Fact is the non-union carriers and carriers with in-house unions made out so much better than the carriers with ALPA and Teamsters after 9/11. Its a proven fact if you look at the numbers and the state of each company after 9/11. And as always history shows us that people don't seem to learn from history and that history will repeat itself. They always think that its going to be different or that they are the exception.

I will take my chances without the union.....but I don't expect you to understand......

The union supporters don't seem to learn. One of the amazing things that seems to be consistant amongst people that post are: If you are anti-union, the posts tend to support the entire health of the company and look to ensure that the company is going to be around for your entire career. If you support the unions, then the posts tend to revolve around what the union has done for the individual or the represented group, how much pay and benefits they have but not a single word about how the union creates long term health and value for the company. Occasionally, a statement will be made about supporting a safety program. ASAP, FOQA and the other safety related programs certainly don't need union support to be successful. The union attitude is to take it now, no matter how much it hurts the company and support workers, Then, they make it sound like the company couldn't exist without them. The reality is, that historically unions have destroyed and disrupted more careers than they have saved them. If unions lived up to their billing as watching out for everybody, NONE of the carriers would have gone into bankruptcy over the last 5 years. They would have acted quickly to ensure the financial health of the company instead of dragging out contract concessions forcing carriers into bankruptcy to protect themselves from the collective bargaining agreement.

I don't feel like I'm taking my chances at all. I KNOW being in a non-union airline is the way to go. You are right, they DON'T understand. What is fine and wonderful now can turn around overnight. I've lived it before, and don't care to live it again. Aviation is full of risk. Labor unrest is one risk that I don't have do worry about anymore.

 

[Galaxy]

The union supporters don't seem to learn. One of the amazing things that seems to be consistant amongst people that post are: If you are anti-union, the posts tend to support the entire health of the company and look to ensure that the company is going to be around for your entire career. If you support the unions, then the posts tend to revolve around what the union has done for the individual or the represented group, how much pay and benefits they have but not a single word about how the union creates long term health and value for the company. Occasionally, a statement will be made about supporting a safety program. ASAP, FOQA and the other safety related programs certainly don't need union support to be successful. The union attitude is to take it now, no matter how much it hurts the company and support workers, Then, they make it sound like the company couldn't exist without them. The reality is, that historically unions have destroyed and disrupted more careers than they have saved them. If unions lived up to their billing as watching out for everybody, NONE of the carriers would have gone into bankruptcy over the last 5 years. They would have acted quickly to ensure the financial health of the company instead of dragging out contract concessions forcing carriers into bankruptcy to protect themselves from the collective bargaining agreement.

I don't feel like I'm taking my chances at all. I KNOW being in a non-union airline is the way to go. You are right, they DON'T understand. What is fine and wonderful now can turn around overnight. I've lived it before, and don't care to live it again. Aviation is full of risk. Labor unrest is one risk that I don't have do worry about anymore.

Once again... This post is just full of your history with an airline.and that other union. .not a fractional and not the IBT 1108. You said you would take your chances without a union... The way I see it is you don't fly for a living now much less a fractional. So either you have no ties to the fractional heartbeat other than this board or you are mgt. The latter would would be my guess as this is the only thing that would spark your interest in this forum. The other guy with multiple names at least works for Flex on the line--so he says..

You made this statement-
What is fine and wonderful now can turn around overnight. I've lived it before, and don't care to live it again.

Well, I work for a frac that had no union and things changed for the worse just like that-overnight. I only wish I had a contract then so the new regime would at least have to follow it and not ruin the company but changing payscales, increasing benefit cost as well as removing benefits. Changing domiciles for no real financial reason--just because-and even though it was an admitted mistake they never reversed it.. Then they cry poor but fly the salesmen and thier wives to go shopping then hire about 20+ new VP's so all his defunct airline rejects can have a job and a golden parachute before they move on to their next victim. All that and no Union....Wow life was great without a union--you must be nuts or mgt....

Fact is..while Flex or CS may be fronting some $$$ to keep you quiet they are getting a great deal for the investment with guys like you..A set of work rules alone is worth the dues 1108 members pay. And like B19 said things can change on a dime--without a contract..if you have a contract there has to be negotiations before changes like that. It would take over a year to even get a union on the property and many more years to hash out a contract. During that time you get to suffer.. just like the NJA guys did for 4 years and Flops is doing now..
So B19 answer my previous question....
What has the 1108 done against the members?