The NWA/DAL case is a wrap, what do you think?

[PuffDriver]

Trust me on this.....not everyone wears their hat in the cockpit....like you do. Sorry to break that to ya...

Hey, wait a minute, we don't have to wear it in the cockpit?

 

[Noserider76]

While many NW guys here seem to think DL was going for the brass ring in this SLI, it is viewed quite differently here. The reality is that most DL guys feel even an award of exactly what we asked for would be a neutral at best. While many at NW who expected to be -9 and 320 guys for years will have access to the 757/767 immediately. Those who thought they would be based in DTW and MSP indefinitely will now have many more choices. Those who were furloughed twice (sometimes) will now get longevity back and all will get substantial payraises. NW guys have always been very focused on the last few years of a career because there have always been very few carrots for a mid-career pilot while those at DL just hope to keep what they have now.

Current DL guys have backward movement in current positions and bases, minimal payraises, ancient DC-9s, and upgrades in MSP and DTW to look forward to in a best case scenario. It will have no bearing on anything, I know. Just a little perspective from an average guys on this side of the fence.

 

[clippyrip]

That is how you see it. 5500 pilots see it differently.

 

[General Lee]

That is how you see it. 5500 pilots see it differently.

DC9 pilots have absolutely nothing to lose here. Anything larger pays more and is more advanced.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Noserider76]

That is how you see it. 5500 pilots see it differently.

I was there, still have friends there, and they see it pretty much the same way I do.

 

[clippyrip]

General,

Its a merger of equals my man, you always seem to forget that.

 

[clippyrip]

I was there, still have friends there, and they see it pretty much the same way I do.

They are humoring you.

 

[clippyrip]

I was there, still have friends there, and they see it pretty much the same way I do.

Tell me this: Would you be ahead of your old classmates from NWA if we went with the DALPA offer?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

ACL,

As usual you get the point I was trying to make. Lots of tough guys on this board, not near as tough on the alpa natl. Wonder why? Easy to talk tough behind a screenname. Anyway, so far ALL, I repeat ALL RDs I have met(On jumpseats, in line at SBs, hotel vans, over cold beers on layovers etc.) since this started have been great guys. I/y'all would not trade places with any other of our bros/sis at any other airline. Back to fins though. He is the one who continually brings up a dfr suit if things don't go the way HE deems is fair. Maybe I am wrong about his involvment in the rjdc but I seem to remember him/her thanking you for not divulging his name to his new bros. Anyone on here, including myself has no idea how the arbitraitors may/will rule. Just spectulation, kinda like predicting who will win the superbowl. My guess is still a negotiated settlement that gives us some near term credit for our old farts, and gives y'all some credit for what y'all deem holy. We shall know by the 8th regardless. Make you a deal. If it is closer to ours, we have to buy the beer on layovers, and vice versa if your's for the rest of our careers.:beer:

I guess he will have that right at the CA. That is fine, I probably will not talk about it, but then it will be well in the the past.

 

[Noserider76]

Tell me this: Would you be ahead of your old classmates from NWA if we went with the DALPA offer?

The honest answer would be yes, slightly, but I left NW because the prognosis for a career at DL was much more lucrative with the fleet mix at each company.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Back to fins though. He is the one who continually brings up a dfr suit if things don't go the way HE deems is fair.

Calling me a SCAB? That's pretty serious. Threatening to out my ID? It seems you like to protect yours anonymity for fear of "internet stalkers" but you don't apply that same standard to others? At most, I'd respond that if you are a gentleman, an apology is in order. Who's the tough guy?

Quote where you read I advocate a DFR suit. Read, would you? Others have come up with various nightmare scenarios which I have rebutted as unlikely for the following reasons:

1. The MEC's have been very careful
2. The Reps have been very responsible
3. ALPA has been careful and has mostly left this to the MEC's
4. Anything that targeted a specific pilot group, or part of that group, for separate and unfair treatment would likely lead to a cause of action which ALPA would want to avoid.

Based on what I've written, things are going almost exactly as expected, with an adjustment for NWA's attrition. Frankly, I doubt anyone cares what I feel is fair. Hopefully there are facts and opinions based on historical outcomes to debate.

As for outing me, been done, you want the list? PM me your name and e-mail, I'll send it to you. I've been outed more times that Linsay Lohan's alleged bisexual tendencies. However, I'm not at all afraid to discuss our profession, ways to improve our profession, and how we can get there. My honest opinion is our Reps are doing a faultless job in this SLI. There has been excellent representation on both sides.

Bloch pulled a rabbit out of his hat on the "pull out-put in" tool. It may be an excellent way to adjust for NWA's attrition - I dunno. The point of my post on this thread was to say that ALPA is a whole lot better off letting Bloch set some new precedent in SLI than trying to do that themselves.

Bloch does not fall under the DFR standard. ALPA does.

 

[nwaredtail]

Based on what I've written, things are going almost exactly as expected, with an adjustment for NWA's attrition, which I wrote was fine with me since it is a career factor for NWA pilots in my relative seniority group.

Anything less than DAL's original offer is a disgrace to the DAL pilots. Having saved NWA, taken on their old fleet, giving them a payraise, better work rules, how in the world are they not the the DALAPA alter begging for admission.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Its ALTAR

But good try at stirring the pot.

Ignore List
nwaredtail
Tanker Clown

 

[nwaredtail]

Its ALTAR

But good try at stirring the pot. The Delta position was very fair and gave them little wiggle room.

Some people look at the sticker price and are happy they saved $10,000 on their new car, although they got ripped on their trade in. Other people go to Edmunds and send the Dealer an e-mail with the fair market value for the car. One method assumes a lot of haggling, the other doesn't.

Sorry your expectations were not met for haggling. What you see is pretty much what you get.

Well, if some junior DAL pilots opinion mattered, then I would care what you say.. Fact is, you are just concerned about the bottom NWA guys being put on this list ahead of you. Odds are, they will be. Why don't you spend your energy hoping the company does well, so you won't have to worry about a job.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

That is part of the inherent problem here. Each and every pilot has one vote, and each voice matters. That is why our merger committee was made up of people across the seniority spectrum.

 

[General Lee]

General,

Its a merger of equals my man, you always seem to forget that.

Come on man, that is NOT what Bloch meant. He meant that our airlines were not failing while the other was the rescuer. We are not equal size, without the same number of widebody jobs (that bring more pay), etc. We are a larger airline with higher pay and more planes to offer, along with more bases. You guys did very well with this merger, giving the number of choices you have now. I do know that there are great parts of your airline, and I am sure you guys are great guys too, but you came here with lower pay, some older equipment that none of us would want to fly, and some interesting testimony that could be considered offensive. (along with your whole DOH/Dynamic proposal) Other than all of that, yes, yes we are equal.... Welcome aboard.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

The real silver lining to the SLI debate was that none of us looked at our stock portfolios for several days.

I lost more in the last few months than I'll make at Delta (regardless of seniority) in the next 10 years.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No I looked, and then looked away. I am off over three years of pay here.

 

[clippyrip]

Come on man, that is NOT what Bloch meant.

We will see my man. Merger of equals is not a confusing statement.

 

[General Lee]

We will see my man. Merger of equals is not a confusing statement.

So, are we the same size? Do we have the same amount of planes? How about the same amount of pilots? You say we are equal in every way? We all read what Bloch said, and he was comparing the merger itself to the USAir merger, and how that merger had one airline that was failing and one that was not. I am glad you and your cohorts saw something that everyone else did not. Go back and read the context of his statement. In reality, we aren't equal in a lot of ways---especially the pay rates and smaller planes you brought into this merger. We brought EVERY ONE of your pay scales up, and you kept your frozen pensions. You will have a choice of bases soon, and more widebodies to chose from,and a fantastic new uniform along with a spify hat. All we got? A NRT hub and some upper midwest hubs that Southwest is looking at too, along with an old freighter operation that may go away, orders for 787s that may not be here for years, and a lot of older DC9s that are the bottom of our combined pay scale. Your stand alone option had you furloughing up to 300 pilots. It was in an official memo, the one your MEC chair couldn't recall. Recent retirements (about 100) have mitigated some of that, but not all of it maybe. We really aren't "equal", now are we? That doesn't mean we can't be friends, but the truth hurts sometimes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetflier]

So, are we the same size? Do we have the same amount of planes? How about the same amount of pilots? You say we are equal in every way? We all read what Bloch said, and he was comparing the merger itself to the USAir merger, and how that merger had one airline that was failing and one that was not. I am glad you and your cohorts saw something that everyone else did not. Go back and read the context of his statement. In reality, we aren't equal in a lot of ways---especially the pay rates and smaller planes you brought into this merger. We brought EVERY ONE of your pay scales up, and you kept your frozen pensions. You will have a choice of bases soon, and more widebodies to chose from,and a fantastic new uniform along with a spify hat. All we got? A NRT hub and some upper midwest hubs that Southwest is looking at too, along with an old freighter operation that may go away, orders for 787s that may not be here for years, and a lot of older DC9s that are the bottom of our combined pay scale. Your stand alone option had you furloughing up to 300 pilots. It was in an official memo, the one your MEC chair couldn't recall. Recent retirements (about 100) have mitigated some of that, but not all of it maybe. We really aren't "equal", now are we? That doesn't mean we can't be friends, but the truth hurts sometimes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Dear Gen,

Yup, in your red and tired time zone changed eyes that may be what you are believing. But when you looked at the bottom line$, did you notice who brought the $$$$ to the merger table, (about $3.5B), and which airline makes the highest profit among the network carriers....yeah,...your airline has the biggest arse, but NWA has the biggest $clong

 

[DTW320]

So, are we the same size? Do we have the same amount of planes? How about the same amount of pilots? You say we are equal in every way? We all read what Bloch said, and he was comparing the merger itself to the USAir merger, and how that merger had one airline that was failing and one that was not. I am glad you and your cohorts saw something that everyone else did not. Go back and read the context of his statement. In reality, we aren't equal in a lot of ways---especially the pay rates and smaller planes you brought into this merger. We brought EVERY ONE of your pay scales up, and you kept your frozen pensions. You will have a choice of bases soon, and more widebodies to chose from,and a fantastic new uniform along with a spify hat. All we got? A NRT hub and some upper midwest hubs that Southwest is looking at too, along with an old freighter operation that may go away, orders for 787s that may not be here for years, and a lot of older DC9s that are the bottom of our combined pay scale. Your stand alone option had you furloughing up to 300 pilots. It was in an official memo, the one your MEC chair couldn't recall. Recent retirements (about 100) have mitigated some of that, but not all of it maybe. We really aren't "equal", now are we? That doesn't mean we can't be friends, but the truth hurts sometimes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You're right general. We weren't equal at all.....we were more profitable than you in almost every metric. Doesn't mean we can't be friends though....

Truth hurts right? I mean, I heard that right here after all...

 

[FDJ2]

We will see my man. Merger of equals is not a confusing statement.

Just as long as you realize that there is a difference between equal and identical.

 

[General Lee]

Dear Gen,

Yup, in your red and tired time zone changed eyes that may be what you are believing. But when you looked at the bottom line$, did you notice who brought the $$$$ to the merger table, (about $3.5B), and which airline makes the highest profit among the network carriers....yeah,...your airline has the biggest arse, but NWA has the biggest $clong

What you fail to see is that Steenland wanted OUT. He horded the cash, and did not expand, at all. He didn't buy new airplanes other than the 787 orders (we bought used 757ERs from AA---17 of them), and he looked for a merger partner. He used the cash as an incentive. Even my friends in the finance sector believe this. Steenland got a nice bonus for leaving, and now has an even bigger house on Lake Minnetonka. You are wrong.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You're right general. We weren't equal at all.....we were more profitable than you in almost every metric. Doesn't mean we can't be friends though....

Truth hurts right? I mean, I heard that right here after all...

More profitable, or kept more cash to find friends? Truth does hurt. The guy who lead you to all that money is already GONE. He also sold 10 or more of your 757s to Fedex to give you more cash, and your pay cuts after BK allowed even more money to flow into the coffers. Great job. See ya buddy!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Dear Gen,

Yup, in your red and tired time zone changed eyes that may be what you are believing. But when you looked at the bottom line$, did you notice who brought the $$$$ to the merger table, (about $3.5B), and which airline makes the highest profit among the network carriers....yeah,...your airline has the biggest arse, but NWA has the biggest $clong

You also brought a disproportionate amount of debt. Don't fool yourself, your cash postion was from borrowed money.

BTW, did you notice who brought most of the international flying, most of the wide bodied aircraft, most of high paying jobs.

 

[General Lee]

You also brought a disproportionate amount of debt. Don't fool yourself, your cash postion was from borrowed money.

BTW, did you notice who brought most of the international flying, most of the wide bodied aircraft, most of high paying jobs.

Come on FDJ2. They did bring more analog planes, more de-ice equipment, and more cargo loaders. I think that means we are EQUAL.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

More profitable, or kept more cash to find friends? BOTH, actually!! More cash AND higher yield/profits....thanks for asking! Truth does hurt. The guy who lead you to all that money is already GONE. He also sold 10 or more of your 757s to Fedex to give you more cash, and your pay cuts after BK allowed even more money to flow into the coffers. Great job. See ya buddy!

Bye Bye--General Lee

Truth really hurts doesn't it?

 

[DTW320]

You also brought a disproportionate amount of debt. Don't fool yourself, your cash postion was from borrowed money.

BTW, did you notice who brought most of the international flying, most of the wide bodied aircraft, most of high paying jobs.

Who had more long term debt? Whose ratio of debt to monthly expenses was much higher? We both had/have lots of borrowed money to be sure. Which airline was producing higher returns with it?

 

[General Lee]

Truth really hurts doesn't it?

Again good buddy, why all the cash on hand? Any reason? We all know where Steenland got the cash? You guys. And, with that cash he kept it in his special box, while the rest of us expanded (you had 176 newhires, we had 700). It's not that hard to see, really. Open your eyes best friend.


Bye Bye--General Lee