The non-fence agreement

[Club ORD FO]

Luckydog, if we had gone non-union do you think the SLI would have been better? It could very well have been DOH which would have been worse for FJ.

 

[el raton]

Why do you think that going non union would be better seniority wise? How would the company combine the lists in your opinion?

With no union? This is how KR would deal with the SLI...Red Label. Those who resist...

 

[V1 Rotate]

El,

You obviously don't understand how the SLI list works. Please contact me and I'll explain it to you.

 

[el raton]

El,

You obviously don't understand how the SLI list works. Please contact me and I'll explain it to you.

Do you understand how it would work with no union?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Without a Union, The Flex pilots would get BURNED. Do you really think for a minute that the pilots that stuck with Kenn all of these years would not be rewarded. When DAC bought Flex, it also "acquired legacy costs that did not benefit Flight Options". That quote came from Kenn during the Citation Air fiasco. What makes you thing you are somehow special in Kenn's eyes? If he could purge the Flex list and replace with 100 hour wonders, he would. What stopped him? the 1108.

 

[doh]

Do you understand how it would work with no union?

Yes, I do. Kenn would decide, based on his whim, whether you would have a career or be relegated to the ash heap. The basic pay and benefits for 85-90% of the Onesky pilots would be about 60% of Travel Management. However, based on said whim, 10-15% would be paid more than the highest paid Netjets pilots. That is unacceptable to me.
You will never get my max if you give me your min.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I understand it perfectly, which is why I got involved. Look no further than the Gulfstreams and Globals. That's how seniority works under Ricci. It finally took an arbitrator to put an end to that nonsense. I guess you're ok with Ricci's seniority world??

 

[shanes123]

Of course he is he's a IGM

 

[993_Pilot]

Thanks for making an informed response, I appreciate the effort it takes.

The facts I pointed out weren?t particularly about the union, they were in response to your statement about how FLOPs were the only onse being treated badly. That just isn?t true. You?ve furloughed since the DAC buyout but some of those pilots were already at FJ so they?re still employed, and now paying dues. You have your 401k back. Again, please point out the mistreatment you?ve suffered because of FJ.

And everyone please don?t use the word ?whipsaw?. It doesn?t apply here. The FJ pilots haven?t accepted any sub-standard offer that would result in a loss at Options. We can?t accept or deny any anything.

You must not understand just how bad the SLI was. It?s not the fact that I won?t get weekends or holidays off, or that I?ll get downgraded from a big plane to a smaller one. The problem is so severe that the union has taken my job from me. At most I might be able to hold P300 FO for a short while until furlough. You?re very lucky to only be ?unhappy? with your new place on the list, congratulations.

During that vote, every single POC member said SLI wouldn?t be by date of hire, that would be completely unfair. Options people on this board said the same thing. Now you?re telling me that it was more important to set precedent as a measure to prevent more seniority loss. Your statement is self-serving as now FLOPs has most of the seniority. So what if a younger company is bought? As long as they bring assets worth keeping you won?t lose anything. If they bring shiny new jets to the group, that?s good for all of us. If they bring worn out junk that isn?t worth keeping, then we?re back in this same boat, and that boat is sinking.

I know what the committee members have posted. It?s a unfortunate they won?t come out and say publicly what they say privately. ?This was the best deal we could get. It preserves some seniority for the top of our list. The FLOPs guys were never going to adopt any list that didn?t put all the 2000-2001 hires into PIC seats. If we didn?t sign then it would go to arbitration and she would FOR SURE go straight DOH.? That sounds like, ?take this bad deal or suffer the consequences? and that is actually a definition of bullying. It?s a shame they didn?t seek the pilots group input or have faith that we?d back their decision to protect all of us. I?m still at a loss to figure out how placing most of the FLOPs pilots ahead of the FJ pilots fulfilled their DFR. Too bad their best just wasn?t good enough.

We at FJ were also told not to worry about SLI because the Fence would keep our jobs after the CBA. That isn?t happening. I can?t even see why the thing is called a fence agreement. It? should be the ?Screw FJ? agreement. FJ can?t be an operating partner, we can?t operate any AC already at FLOPs especially the P300, any future ?on demand charter? belongs to FLOPS, the FLOPs transfer pilots can stay at FJ and still accrue ?longevity?. In return we have to opportunity to transfer to FLOPs if no one is on furlough and an opening is available. That sounds like as fair & equitable the SLI.

In this case an informed plea to help hold the line against KR falls on deaf ears. About 200 guys are now looking at the end of their job all because the IBT was voted in. None of us give a damn about what happens between you and the company, we aren?t involved. You guys are the vast majority of the volunteers because you have the most to lose, we won?t be affected by the contract. That should tell you something about how this is going, FJ is not an equal partner.

I get it, you?re keeping you job, maybe even finally getting that upgrade you?ve wasted a decade to get? but that doesn?t mean crap to me or 2/3rds of the FJ pilots. The FLOPS union has proven they are going to exploit every advantage they can to maximize their gain with no regard of the suffering it causes at FJ. We do agree that the Union (made up of FLOPs pilots) does want to drag FJ down, instead they have succeeded in replacing the FJ pilots almost entirely. When you have FLOPS running the operations and flying the aircraft this place isn?t FJ, or OneSky, it?s still FLOPs. You have won, we lost.

Now isn?t the time to volunteer. Now is the time for me to update my resume, and find a job. Now is time to call the Waterview and find out what is involved in getting another vote, DECERT or in house or whatever. You guys had your chance to prove Kenn wrong and you blew it. You?ve lived up to almost every crazy thing he said would happen. Do you really expect the average FJ pilot to wait to be replaced while helping the people that have pushed them out of a job? Do you really expect them to care if Kenn screws you in the CBA? You have alienated the only union support at FJ and now want to sing kumbaya, that?s not realistic at all.


And this is just an after thought about Shane: you guys know who he is, put a muzzle on that mad dog, he doesn?t do you any good at all.

Top-of-Descent, time to go back to work making sure you'll have a nice comfy seat to take.

Lucky,

Those Gulfstreams were talked about by KR for a quite a while before there was any talk of buying Flexjet, and the Legacy 450/500's were the planned replacement for the Citation X's, where as they are direct competition for the Challenger 300/350's. However, KR gave the both Gulfstreams and Legacy 450/500's to Flexjet anyways and was/is attempting to make the Options pilots give up the protections of the union and go over to Flexjet or face furlough. The term "Whipsaw" applies any time management tries to play one group against another, and that is exactly what he did here, so "Whipsaw" is very appropriate. I realize that it's not the Flexjet pilots fault, but still fact. We got the 401k match back because we were mere weeks away from the grievance hearing that he knew he would lose. As far as the SLI, go back and check my previous posts on the subject, I fully expected that it would go relative percentage, and would have much preferred it too. I was as surprised as anyone else when the results came out. I lost about 5% bidding power, mainly due to being a former Travel Air pilot. I used to have a few original Options pilots in from of me, that were hired after me, now they are going to add a whole bunch more Flexjet pilots to that list too, so yes, I get your frustration. Some groups lost and some groups gained, but overall the longevity (Not DoH) method was the fairest method for the largest number of people. I suggest sitting down with someone who was on the SLI committee with an open mind and ask them to explain what were the considered methods and concerns about each and ultimately why the two sides agreed to the method they used. I wasn't very happy with my new placement either, but I have done just that, and it opened my eyes to what each method would have done, and consequentially I understand and accept it now. The union isn't trying to give any advantage to one pilot group over the other, but KR, RH, JW and others knew that regardless of the method eventually chosen, there would be those who lost and would be very upset, and they will use that frustration with SLI, Fences, or whatever to fuel the decert that KR so desperately wants. I get that you feel like you are getting screwed and understandably have a very myopic view of the union, but why would you support a decert movement? Why do you think that the aviation industry is by far the most highly unionized group? If we lose the union, I will be dusting off my resume too, but I am not too worried about it. I don't mean to sound smug or self righteous, but we barely got much help from the majority of Flexjet pilots in the representation vote after the single carrier determination, and judging by the lack of any desire on the part of so many Flexjet pilots to get involved, I seriously doubt you, El Raton, SPT, PD and the rest will be able to muster the 50%+1 cards needed to make that vote happen after a CBA. Given your apparent situation, I understand why you might want to look for other employment, and in all seriousness, the best of luck to you.

(BTW, I have to agree with you about Shanes too.)

 

[Praetorian]

Very well stated 993. I would only add that in a scenario where the union was decertified and DAC was left to determine SLI, they would still be bound by the "fair and equitable" principle as outlined in the Mccaskill Bond act.

I think that since a Judge has already ruled on the method that the joint committee used, it would be difficult to have his ruling set aside.

I had a simmilar conversation with a member of the SLI committee. It looks like relative seniority was maintained throughout the list.