The non-fence agreement

[doh]

It must be really awkward having to contridict yourself in public. Next time you might just try saying nothing at all.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Bjtdrvr]

Ha. He is saying that you were on the sli committee and that someone on the committee is saying that they were bullied into accepting the list. But as I just posted above this person apparently does not take the time to get his/her facts straight.

 

[luckydog]

Ha. He is saying that you were on the sli committee and that someone on the committee is saying that they were bullied into accepting the list. But as I just posted above this person apparently does not take the time to get his/her facts straight.

You are 1 out 2.

First part: swing and a miss. I did read the entire judgement. He declared the PROCESS fair & reasonable. There were other options that would have provided less bias and still been fair and reasonable. As to the FJ pilots receiving higher rankings that has to be the transfer pilots because after number 100 on our list, it?s just not true.


Second part: exactly. In fact, he is the committee member I?ve overheard saying they had no choice.

FWIW: I believe if FLOPs had brought anything to this marriage worth keeping, the fence agreement wouldn't be that bad. As Mr. Goldfish couldn't take into account the future plans of the company he made a fair deal. Yo guys would stay on your side, we'd stay on ours. But, since both mgmt and the union know that we selling the XTs and 750, doubling the size of the group but cutting the number of aircraft in half, this agreement leaves every FJ pilot that's not in the top 100 vulnerable to downgrade and eventual furlough as soon as the CBA is effective.

I'm still waiting to see how the "unfilled vacancies" clause in implemented.

 

[doh]

You comepletely misunderstood what I was saying if you think I said I was bullied into anything. The only time I said anything about not having a choice was in following the law. We had/have a DFR to all members. I have said we had no choice but to be fair and equitable because it's the law, but I never said, nor did the IBT ever bully me or any other committee member into any position. They accepted everything we did, as long as it met DFR. Management said we didn't meet DFR, and the judge overruled them.

 

[V1 Rotate]

As a member of the SLI committee as well, we weren't bullied into anything. That sounds like something RH would say happened. Did we get everything we wanted? Of course not. But that doesn't mean we were bullied into anything. There were far more Flight Options pilots crying foul over the process than Flexjet pilots. In fact, I wish all the sessions had been recorded and put into a time capsule to be opened in 50 years. This crap about us being insignificant in the process is ridiculous. I'll stand by the role we played and no detractor will make me waiver from it.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Sounds like there are a few of us that are making unsubstantiated claims. That is how the detractors work. In the end, they just sit on the sidelines and complain. Eventually no one listens to them. These same complainers really do not realize how lucky they are. Uncle could have done to Flex what he wanted to do to Citation Air without our Union to stop him.

 

[OldCrow]

If you would only....

You are 1 out 2.

First part: swing and a miss. I did read the entire judgement. He declared the PROCESS fair & reasonable. There were other options that would have provided less bias and still been fair and reasonable. As to the FJ pilots receiving higher rankings that has to be the transfer pilots because after number 100 on our list, it?s just not true.


Second part: exactly. In fact, he is the committee member I?ve overheard saying they had no choice.

FWIW: I believe if FLOPs had brought anything to this marriage worth keeping, the fence agreement wouldn't be that bad. As Mr. Goldfish couldn't take into account the future plans of the company he made a fair deal. Yo guys would stay on your side, we'd stay on ours. But, since both mgmt and the union know that we selling the XTs and 750, doubling the size of the group but cutting the number of aircraft in half, this agreement leaves every FJ pilot that's not in the top 100 vulnerable to downgrade and eventual furlough as soon as the CBA is effective.

I'm still waiting to see how the "unfilled vacancies" clause in implemented.

Lucky,
He seem to be well spoken, and spend some time developing your augment(s). If you would only dedicate that BIG brain of yours to helping your fellow Pilots.,i.e, UNION, your world would be spinning on greased axles right now. You don't even have to read tea leaves, or chicken bones to know that we are going to be in your jets, and you in ours.
I get it, it kinda sucks, as y'all have nicer jets, but sure as the suns gonna come up tomorrow:it'll happen.

 

[el raton]

Let's face it, the root of your angst it that you feel superior to the Options pilots and you're pissed that they were not stapled to the bottom of the FX list, below you.

Here's a news flash for you. A Federal F**king judge has ruled that our SLI was done fairly and equitably. But you're some kind a Sky God right? You deserved to jump to the head of the line?

WAKE UP. You are being plaid like a fiddle in this whip saw game by management.

You've got two choices, find another job, or get involved with our union and help make this place better for all of us.

Thinking decert? When have you seen that actually happen?

We only have "two choices, find another job, or get involved with our union"? Really? That sounds like a threat!

I just added a third choice. I'm going to actively work with those who want to decertify. Many at Flex still believe our pain is solely because of the Union vote. Love to see the IBT kicked out!

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

We only have "two choices, find another job, or get involved with our union"? Really? That sounds like a threat!

I just added a third choice. I'm going to actively work with those who want to decertify. Many at Flex still believe our pain is solely because of the Union vote. Love to see the IBT kicked out!

el, You haven't seen pain. Pre-Union days at this place, had me building some time then moving on. Throw in the recession and the lack of hiring at the majors, and I found myself stuck here for awhile. Kenn had a label for us. He knew we were trapped so why pay us? el, you are considered one of the trapped employees. I decided to stand up and vote for the Union. Decertification or an in-house union just doesn't cut it with this guy. He can outspend you, and when you are broke, you will be terminated out of seniority order.

 

[Praetorian]

We only have "two choices, find another job, or get involved with our union"? Really? That sounds like a threat!

I just added a third choice. I'm going to actively work with those who want to decertify. Many at Flex still believe our pain is solely because of the Union vote. Love to see the IBT kicked out!

Ha. So you wanna be the next Phil? Ask him how that went.

 

[993_Pilot]

It?s unfortunate the you feel you?re the only ones losing in this deal. I honestly don?t know why you?re surprised.

After looking at the aircraft list it?s obvious how much trouble FLOPS was in before the DAC purchase of FJ. You guys were mostly a small jet operator with marginal management. After only a short time of being managed by the folks at CGF the fact that you were still in business at all is amazing. KR isn?t parking aircraft at FLOPS just because of the IBT, and not because they?re making too much money. He?s getting rid of them because they?re old, worn out, and not what the market wants. Old XTs and 750s aren?t bringing in new customers so they have to go, that?s what is driving the owner migration to FJ. Small jets are low margin operators, the market segment is saturated with people looking to own a jet but pay for it by charter. It looks like FLOPs was in for a huge dose of pain regardless of what happened with FJ.

When OneSky bought FJ, they gained instant access to a large number of high margin, old airplanes that are in demand and a list of people that were willing to pay for them. Our operation was efficiently run and made money in the last downturn and was in fact making record profit at the time of he sale. Then without warning, and for external reasons. we were sold. Our outlook was good as we had already been suffering the pain of losing our small jets as the LR40/45 fleets were downsized but the 300 fleet was growing. The LR85 failure would have been a hit, but the CL30 would have probably taken it?s place as new 350s became available.

All that aside, what did I expect? During the organizing drive the union was sold as a fair way to keep KR in check and maintain most of what we had at FJ. We knew there would be some losses in seniority but were told we would pretty much be left in tact. However, the last 2 bits of work from the union have been anything but fair. After the shameless SLI we were told not to worry because the fence agreement would protect our jobs. We are again disappointed. IF a CBA is ever reached, the fence agreement is over. The only protection the majority of the FJ crews will have will have to come from the CBA itself. So far the IBT has done everything to promote the FLOPs crews at the expense of the FJ and I don?t expect to change.

I?m very confused about you statement that you?ve been ?getting the crappy end of this deal?. Try adding some facts.
FACT: FJ has worse benefits under DAC than FJ.
FACT: FJ has fewer aircraft now than the date of sale.
FACT: Every aspect of what the FJ operation that defined the company is not GONE.
FACT: FJ & FLOPS have split the 450?s evenly and FLOPs as 50% more seats in the Global.
FACT: FLOPs crew members can transfer over and keep their FLOPS number waiting on the CBA so they can assume the FJ seats.
FACT: At the signing of the the JCBA FLOPs will hold all but about 100 of the PIC seats in the company.

It?s the thinking that the FLOPs guys deserve everything FJ has because KR has been making their lives terrible for so long is the problem. Just as no one on your side cares about how the FJ operation was run, we don?t care about how long you?ve been feeling unloved. That was the old company, this is now OneSky. There?s plenty of hurt to go around for all of us! You shouldn?t get any credit for time served.

What did expect? I expected to be treated as an equal.

The SLI committee has said they were bullied into the agreement. Sign this one or else the next will be worse, that?s not equal.
The fence agreement didn?t recognize the FJ pilots rights to anything, or the equity in sharing the PIC seats after the CBA.
I?m sure the contract will sell out the few remaining things the FJ pilots have now in favor of FLOPs getting a nickel more in pay.

Bottom line, you worked at a marginally run company for too long and now see FJ as your lifeboat and are willing to push us overboard to save yourself.

Lucky, We don't see Flexjet as a lifeboat, but maybe KR does. Right now most of us see Flexjet as more of an anchor that is dragging us down, because KR has been whipsawing us against each other, and a large portion of the Flexjet pilots are falling for it. You claim that Flexjet was bullied into the SLI, we now have heard from two SLI committee reps, one of them being the alleged member that said this, and this has been disputed. The fact is that both groups had three members comprised of a senior captain, a junior captain, and junior co-pilot, so I'd say that was about the best way to represent each pilot group. You might think that some form of a zipper or % placement would have been better, but there are lots of former Travel Air pilots that are junior to original Flight Options pilots due to this method and will now suffer again because of it. Once that precedent was set for the represented group, what would happen if DAC bought a 5 year old company next?...We could have 5 year guys out-bidding us for the next shiny new airplane spot. I am not too happy with my personal position on the new list either, but I would still agree that overall, it was done fairly. As a former Travel Air pilot, I can say that I have a pretty good idea how you feel, because we were flying new aircraft, had better benefits, a pension, etc. when Raytheon sold us to KR. So we had a lot of our cheese moved too. In fact, a lot of the things you talk about losing from when BBD owned Flexjet has been experienced by about half the current Options pilots. So, you are right that there is plenty of hurt to go around for all of us. The union had nothing to do with the number of aircraft at Flex or most of the other FACTS you mentioned, KR is the only one to blame for most of them. The union isn't a perfect solution, and it never will be, but it is much better that trusting this management team with your fate. You have already seen where that leads, and trust me, it won't get better, we have been there. If you want to ensure better representation from the union, you and most of the rest of the Flexjet pilots need to stand up and help us fight for it. The union is nothing more than volunteers from the pilot ranks, and right now the vast majority are Options pilots, so the limited number of volunteers from Flex can't do it all by themselves. Make no mistake, neither the "union" nor the Options pilots want to drag Flexjet down, but we can't lift us all up without help, and NOW is the time to volunteer.

 

[shanes123]

Everyday when I think. These flex guys are really the bottom of the barrel. Someone like EL comes out and proves me wrong.

 

[shanes123]

Everyday when I think. These flex guys are really the bottom of the barrel in the brains DEPT Someone like EL comes out and proves me wrong.

 

[el raton]

Everyday when I think. These flex guys are really the bottom of the barrel in the brains DEPT Someone like EL comes out and proves me wrong.

Sure thing shane. Just what do you think that we (Flex) are fighting for. We're fighting for our jobs.

You option pilots keep telling us what a terrible business man KR is. If that's true, and most likely is, that means furloughs are coming once he's done screwing this thing up. I'm fighting for my job because I'm at the bottom of the new combined list. In fact, most of Flex is now at the bottom. Our best chance for survival (the bottom at Onesky) is to decertify.

Sorry, but why would I give up my friends at Flexjet to save any options pilot. I'm going all out to help decertify and save the jobs of flexjet pilots.

 

[shanes123]

WOW you Flex guys really are the bottom of the barrel bottom feeders. De-certify... Then when KR kicks your sorry A to the curb cause you refuse a trip tired or broke. see where your precious job lands you then. Fighting for your job. what a joke. you Flex idiots aren't qualified to be Uber drivers. Enjoy your Grey shirt and Cum colored tie. Ever wonder why the tie is the color it is? so you can wipe your chin off and the stain doesn't show!!

 

[Propilot77]

WOW you Flex guys really are the bottom of the barrel bottom feeders. De-certify... Then when KR kicks your sorry A to the curb cause you refuse a trip tired or broke. see where your precious job lands you then. Fighting for your job. what a joke. you Flex idiots aren't qualified to be Uber drivers. Enjoy your Grey shirt and Cum colored tie. Ever wonder why the tie is the color it is? so you can wipe your chin off and the stain doesn't show!!

Shane why is it that you only post here on Flight info and not the VUH? Been trying to figure that out for quite some time?

 

[shanes123]

I just say what everyone else is thinking and afraid to say. Plenty of them say the same thing and worse when they feel they are in safe company. This board is safe company if the blatant truth was spoken like this on the VUH there would be a lot of backlash I don't care to deal with. Although one pilot did come out and say he's sick and tired of pansy prancing around these FJ pilots and did a pretty good job of laying it to them. ( pansy prancing not his words I improvised but basically same thing). I don't have a self serving agenda like the FJ pilots and the IGMs. I have called out the union on things I feel they screwed up on. ( another very unpopular thing to do on the VUH) But anyone that thinks this company is better of without the 1108. ( which is your fellow pilots that want pretty much the same thing everyone else wants and not some magical wizard behind a curtain) is a complete IDIOT. If these fools would open their little pee brains up and just look at history its pretty clear what a non union FlopyFlex would look and be like to work for. But they are not capable of that. They still have delusions of the old FJ thats gone. Funny thing about that is I spoke with two Fj pilots pilots the other day and their opinion of the FJ management was A Kissers prevailed. ( first time I heard that) so kinda tells me KR knew exactly what he was doing when he took FJ over CA. He went for the A kissing Culture over the professional Pilot group that CA was. hope that answers your Q Mr PROPILOT. just one Question what color is your Tie ?

 

[luckydog]

Lucky, We don't see Flexjet as a lifeboat, but maybe KR does. Right now most of us see Flexjet as more of an anchor that is dragging us down, because KR has been whipsawing us against each other, and a large portion of the Flexjet pilots are falling for it. You claim that Flexjet was bullied into the SLI, we now have heard from two SLI committee reps, one of them being the alleged member that said this, and this has been disputed. The fact is that both groups had three members comprised of a senior captain, a junior captain, and junior co-pilot, so I'd say that was about the best way to represent each pilot group. You might think that some form of a zipper or % placement would have been better, but there are lots of former Travel Air pilots that are junior to original Flight Options pilots due to this method and will now suffer again because of it. Once that precedent was set for the represented group, what would happen if DAC bought a 5 year old company next?...We could have 5 year guys out-bidding us for the next shiny new airplane spot. I am not too happy with my personal position on the new list either, but I would still agree that overall, it was done fairly. As a former Travel Air pilot, I can say that I have a pretty good idea how you feel, because we were flying new aircraft, had better benefits, a pension, etc. when Raytheon sold us to KR. So we had a lot of our cheese moved too. In fact, a lot of the things you talk about losing from when BBD owned Flexjet has been experienced by about half the current Options pilots. So, you are right that there is plenty of hurt to go around for all of us. The union had nothing to do with the number of aircraft at Flex or most of the other FACTS you mentioned, KR is the only one to blame for most of them. The union isn't a perfect solution, and it never will be, but it is much better that trusting this management team with your fate. You have already seen where that leads, and trust me, it won't get better, we have been there. If you want to ensure better representation from the union, you and most of the rest of the Flexjet pilots need to stand up and help us fight for it. The union is nothing more than volunteers from the pilot ranks, and right now the vast majority are Options pilots, so the limited number of volunteers from Flex can't do it all by themselves. Make no mistake, neither the "union" nor the Options pilots want to drag Flexjet down, but we can't lift us all up without help, and NOW is the time to volunteer.

Thanks for making an informed response, I appreciate the effort it takes.

The facts I pointed out weren?t particularly about the union, they were in response to your statement about how FLOPs were the only onse being treated badly. That just isn?t true. You?ve furloughed since the DAC buyout but some of those pilots were already at FJ so they?re still employed, and now paying dues. You have your 401k back. Again, please point out the mistreatment you?ve suffered because of FJ.

And everyone please don?t use the word ?whipsaw?. It doesn?t apply here. The FJ pilots haven?t accepted any sub-standard offer that would result in a loss at Options. We can?t accept or deny any anything.

You must not understand just how bad the SLI was. It?s not the fact that I won?t get weekends or holidays off, or that I?ll get downgraded from a big plane to a smaller one. The problem is so severe that the union has taken my job from me. At most I might be able to hold P300 FO for a short while until furlough. You?re very lucky to only be ?unhappy? with your new place on the list, congratulations.

During that vote, every single POC member said SLI wouldn?t be by date of hire, that would be completely unfair. Options people on this board said the same thing. Now you?re telling me that it was more important to set precedent as a measure to prevent more seniority loss. Your statement is self-serving as now FLOPs has most of the seniority. So what if a younger company is bought? As long as they bring assets worth keeping you won?t lose anything. If they bring shiny new jets to the group, that?s good for all of us. If they bring worn out junk that isn?t worth keeping, then we?re back in this same boat, and that boat is sinking.

I know what the committee members have posted. It?s a unfortunate they won?t come out and say publicly what they say privately. ?This was the best deal we could get. It preserves some seniority for the top of our list. The FLOPs guys were never going to adopt any list that didn?t put all the 2000-2001 hires into PIC seats. If we didn?t sign then it would go to arbitration and she would FOR SURE go straight DOH.? That sounds like, ?take this bad deal or suffer the consequences? and that is actually a definition of bullying. It?s a shame they didn?t seek the pilots group input or have faith that we?d back their decision to protect all of us. I?m still at a loss to figure out how placing most of the FLOPs pilots ahead of the FJ pilots fulfilled their DFR. Too bad their best just wasn?t good enough.

We at FJ were also told not to worry about SLI because the Fence would keep our jobs after the CBA. That isn?t happening. I can?t even see why the thing is called a fence agreement. It? should be the ?Screw FJ? agreement. FJ can?t be an operating partner, we can?t operate any AC already at FLOPs especially the P300, any future ?on demand charter? belongs to FLOPS, the FLOPs transfer pilots can stay at FJ and still accrue ?longevity?. In return we have to opportunity to transfer to FLOPs if no one is on furlough and an opening is available. That sounds like as fair & equitable the SLI.

In this case an informed plea to help hold the line against KR falls on deaf ears. About 200 guys are now looking at the end of their job all because the IBT was voted in. None of us give a damn about what happens between you and the company, we aren?t involved. You guys are the vast majority of the volunteers because you have the most to lose, we won?t be affected by the contract. That should tell you something about how this is going, FJ is not an equal partner.

I get it, you?re keeping you job, maybe even finally getting that upgrade you?ve wasted a decade to get? but that doesn?t mean crap to me or 2/3rds of the FJ pilots. The FLOPS union has proven they are going to exploit every advantage they can to maximize their gain with no regard of the suffering it causes at FJ. We do agree that the Union (made up of FLOPs pilots) does want to drag FJ down, instead they have succeeded in replacing the FJ pilots almost entirely. When you have FLOPS running the operations and flying the aircraft this place isn?t FJ, or OneSky, it?s still FLOPs. You have won, we lost.

Now isn?t the time to volunteer. Now is the time for me to update my resume, and find a job. Now is time to call the Waterview and find out what is involved in getting another vote, DECERT or in house or whatever. You guys had your chance to prove Kenn wrong and you blew it. You?ve lived up to almost every crazy thing he said would happen. Do you really expect the average FJ pilot to wait to be replaced while helping the people that have pushed them out of a job? Do you really expect them to care if Kenn screws you in the CBA? You have alienated the only union support at FJ and now want to sing kumbaya, that?s not realistic at all.


And this is just an after thought about Shane: you guys know who he is, put a muzzle on that mad dog, he doesn?t do you any good at all.

Top-of-Descent, time to go back to work making sure you'll have a nice comfy seat to take.

 

[slowtation capt]

Now isn?t the time to volunteer. Now is the time for me to update my resume, and find a job. Now is time to call the Waterview and find out what is involved in getting another vote, DECERT or in house or whatever.

Do some research, Decertification isn't even an option. Also what do you expect to happen if you could get rid of the union. You think they are going to undo the sli, you think they would just go and fire all the options guys. By the time we even get to anything that could potential be something other than the 1108 there will be a cba, there will be one seniority list. and what, you guys think you could get the 1108 kicked out and then everything would be restored back to order

 

[Club ORD FO]

Our best chance for survival (the bottom at Onesky) is to decertify.

Sorry, but why would I give up my friends at Flexjet to save any options pilot. I'm going all out to help decertify and save the jobs of flexjet pilots.

Why do you think that going non union would be better seniority wise? How would the company combine the lists in your opinion?