The non-fence agreement

[Imissmypilot]

Question for you luckydog? Where would you be on the seniority list if Bombardier kept us? Trick question since we'd all be out of a job at Flexjet.

There is only one person truly in charge of how this has and will go down and that's Kenn Ricci. I hear equal frustrations of feeling the shaft from both groups so it's hard to say the union did better for one team than the other. Until we remember we are now one team, it won't get better.

I seem to recall the some on the POC warning us back in Spring of 2015 this is exactly what would happen if we didn't organize on our own before single carrier. Instead of showing stones then, we let Kenn Ricci goad everyone into this single carrier mess and then he had the hubris to brag about it in the videos knowing exactly what it meant for him: a bigger opportunity to pit us against each other indefinitely.

And as for you specifically luckdog, unless I'm mistaking you for someone else wouldn't YOU really be out of a job if it wasn't for the threat of the Teamsters being on property? I might have my issues with current leadership but I'm certainly not going to bite the hand that's securing food for my table.

 

[shanes123]

Bottom line is. Fence agreements suck. The new CBA is gonna suck cause its gonna be decided by the arbitrator. and this company sucks in general. anyone thinking this is a career and not a temporary stop till a real job comes along has pretty low career expectations.

 

[luckydog]

What exactly did you expect to happen, Lucky?
It is the Options pilots that are getting the Crappy end of this deal. Management is closing down all of our fleets with the exception of the Phoenom and migrating all of the Options customers to the Flexjet brand. So the Flexjet brand is growing, while the Options brand is shrinking mainly due to the migration of the Options owners to a Flexjet aircraft, as they sign new contracts. We are effectively one company now, yet it is our pilots that will get to warm a seat at the bottom of your seniority list until a JCBA. Do you really think it would be fair to let management kill off one side of the house and grow the other side, while permanently stuffing us to the bottom of your seniority list? Get real. The Options pilots have been eating a big $h!t sandwich ever since DAC bought Flexjet, and it looks like that will continue until a JCBA. However, it is worth it to have a JCBA, or we would all be begging for scraps at managements table, trying to get into the FOK club. Imagine the opposite was happening for you and then tell me the union is doing the wrong thing.

It?s unfortunate the you feel you?re the only ones losing in this deal. I honestly don?t know why you?re surprised.

After looking at the aircraft list it?s obvious how much trouble FLOPS was in before the DAC purchase of FJ. You guys were mostly a small jet operator with marginal management. After only a short time of being managed by the folks at CGF the fact that you were still in business at all is amazing. KR isn?t parking aircraft at FLOPS just because of the IBT, and not because they?re making too much money. He?s getting rid of them because they?re old, worn out, and not what the market wants. Old XTs and 750s aren?t bringing in new customers so they have to go, that?s what is driving the owner migration to FJ. Small jets are low margin operators, the market segment is saturated with people looking to own a jet but pay for it by charter. It looks like FLOPs was in for a huge dose of pain regardless of what happened with FJ.

When OneSky bought FJ, they gained instant access to a large number of high margin, old airplanes that are in demand and a list of people that were willing to pay for them. Our operation was efficiently run and made money in the last downturn and was in fact making record profit at the time of he sale. Then without warning, and for external reasons. we were sold. Our outlook was good as we had already been suffering the pain of losing our small jets as the LR40/45 fleets were downsized but the 300 fleet was growing. The LR85 failure would have been a hit, but the CL30 would have probably taken it?s place as new 350s became available.

All that aside, what did I expect? During the organizing drive the union was sold as a fair way to keep KR in check and maintain most of what we had at FJ. We knew there would be some losses in seniority but were told we would pretty much be left in tact. However, the last 2 bits of work from the union have been anything but fair. After the shameless SLI we were told not to worry because the fence agreement would protect our jobs. We are again disappointed. IF a CBA is ever reached, the fence agreement is over. The only protection the majority of the FJ crews will have will have to come from the CBA itself. So far the IBT has done everything to promote the FLOPs crews at the expense of the FJ and I don?t expect to change.

I?m very confused about you statement that you?ve been ?getting the crappy end of this deal?. Try adding some facts.
FACT: FJ has worse benefits under DAC than FJ.
FACT: FJ has fewer aircraft now than the date of sale.
FACT: Every aspect of what the FJ operation that defined the company is not GONE.
FACT: FJ & FLOPS have split the 450?s evenly and FLOPs as 50% more seats in the Global.
FACT: FLOPs crew members can transfer over and keep their FLOPS number waiting on the CBA so they can assume the FJ seats.
FACT: At the signing of the the JCBA FLOPs will hold all but about 100 of the PIC seats in the company.

It?s the thinking that the FLOPs guys deserve everything FJ has because KR has been making their lives terrible for so long is the problem. Just as no one on your side cares about how the FJ operation was run, we don?t care about how long you?ve been feeling unloved. That was the old company, this is now OneSky. There?s plenty of hurt to go around for all of us! You shouldn?t get any credit for time served.

What did expect? I expected to be treated as an equal.

The SLI committee has said they were bullied into the agreement. Sign this one or else the next will be worse, that?s not equal.
The fence agreement didn?t recognize the FJ pilots rights to anything, or the equity in sharing the PIC seats after the CBA.
I?m sure the contract will sell out the few remaining things the FJ pilots have now in favor of FLOPs getting a nickel more in pay.

Bottom line, you worked at a marginally run company for too long and now see FJ as your lifeboat and are willing to push us overboard to save yourself.

 

[luckydog]

Question for you luckydog? Where would you be on the seniority list if Bombardier kept us? Trick question since we'd all be out of a job at Flexjet.

There is only one person truly in charge of how this has and will go down and that's Kenn Ricci. I hear equal frustrations of feeling the shaft from both groups so it's hard to say the union did better for one team than the other. Until we remember we are now one team, it won't get better.

I seem to recall the some on the POC warning us back in Spring of 2015 this is exactly what would happen if we didn't organize on our own before single carrier. Instead of showing stones then, we let Kenn Ricci goad everyone into this single carrier mess and then he had the hubris to brag about it in the videos knowing exactly what it meant for him: a bigger opportunity to pit us against each other indefinitely.

And as for you specifically luckdog, unless I'm mistaking you for someone else wouldn't YOU really be out of a job if it wasn't for the threat of the Teamsters being on property? I might have my issues with current leadership but I'm certainly not going to bite the hand that's securing food for my table.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
Maybe BBD would have shut us down, maybe sold the airplane to NJ, I don't know. The way it is now, the FJ pilots will be the first to go under a CBA so I don't see much difference.

I do know that had we organized in 2015 we'd probably be in the same exact place. Maybe we would have had competent representation on the negotiating committees if they had been elected instead of self-appointed, maybe not.

You have listened to the cries of the IBT for too long and now believe KR is the biggest threat to your career instead of them. The IBT has matched every lie Kenn has told. WE ARE NOT A TEAM. You and I have been marginalized and you just don't recognize it yet.

And me specifically, I don't know who you think I am, but that statement is very flawed. I can't think of a single person being kept on payroll because of the threat of the union. If you're trying to imply that I'm on the POC, you couldn't be more wrong.

The hand that feeds you is not going to be feeding you much longer. Your chance to bite anyone's hand is long gone. You do have the privilege of paying dues to those that will be kept around if that's any consolation.

 

[Bjtdrvr]

KR had ALWAYS planned on making the two companies one! It was never his intention of keeping things the same. Also I am sure Bombardier was making Flex look ad good as they could on their books because they actually had been on the market for years! In fact KR tried to buy them before he bought T/A those many years ago. They wanted too much money for it so he went to Raytheon. They also wanted too much for themselves till 9/11 happened. Then they were the first ones to accept KR offer. So he took them up on it.

 

[Praetorian]

It?s unfortunate the you feel you?re the only ones losing in this deal. I honestly don?t know why you?re surprised.

After looking at the aircraft list it?s obvious how much trouble FLOPS was in before the DAC purchase of FJ. You guys were mostly a small jet operator with marginal management. After only a short time of being managed by the folks at CGF the fact that you were still in business at all is amazing. KR isn?t parking aircraft at FLOPS just because of the IBT, and not because they?re making too much money. He?s getting rid of them because they?re old, worn out, and not what the market wants. Old XTs and 750s aren?t bringing in new customers so they have to go, that?s what is driving the owner migration to FJ. Small jets are low margin operators, the market segment is saturated with people looking to own a jet but pay for it by charter. It looks like FLOPs was in for a huge dose of pain regardless of what happened with FJ.

When OneSky bought FJ, they gained instant access to a large number of high margin, old airplanes that are in demand and a list of people that were willing to pay for them. Our operation was efficiently run and made money in the last downturn and was in fact making record profit at the time of he sale. Then without warning, and for external reasons. we were sold. Our outlook was good as we had already been suffering the pain of losing our small jets as the LR40/45 fleets were downsized but the 300 fleet was growing. The LR85 failure would have been a hit, but the CL30 would have probably taken it?s place as new 350s became available.

All that aside, what did I expect? During the organizing drive the union was sold as a fair way to keep KR in check and maintain most of what we had at FJ. We knew there would be some losses in seniority but were told we would pretty much be left in tact. However, the last 2 bits of work from the union have been anything but fair. After the shameless SLI we were told not to worry because the fence agreement would protect our jobs. We are again disappointed. IF a CBA is ever reached, the fence agreement is over. The only protection the majority of the FJ crews will have will have to come from the CBA itself. So far the IBT has done everything to promote the FLOPs crews at the expense of the FJ and I don?t expect to change.

I?m very confused about you statement that you?ve been ?getting the crappy end of this deal?. Try adding some facts.
FACT: FJ has worse benefits under DAC than FJ.
FACT: FJ has fewer aircraft now than the date of sale.
FACT: Every aspect of what the FJ operation that defined the company is not GONE.
FACT: FJ & FLOPS have split the 450?s evenly and FLOPs as 50% more seats in the Global.
FACT: FLOPs crew members can transfer over and keep their FLOPS number waiting on the CBA so they can assume the FJ seats.
FACT: At the signing of the the JCBA FLOPs will hold all but about 100 of the PIC seats in the company.

It?s the thinking that the FLOPs guys deserve everything FJ has because KR has been making their lives terrible for so long is the problem. Just as no one on your side cares about how the FJ operation was run, we don?t care about how long you?ve been feeling unloved. That was the old company, this is now OneSky. There?s plenty of hurt to go around for all of us! You shouldn?t get any credit for time served.

What did expect? I expected to be treated as an equal.

The SLI committee has said they were bullied into the agreement. Sign this one or else the next will be worse, that?s not equal.
The fence agreement didn?t recognize the FJ pilots rights to anything, or the equity in sharing the PIC seats after the CBA.
I?m sure the contract will sell out the few remaining things the FJ pilots have now in favor of FLOPs getting a nickel more in pay.

Bottom line, you worked at a marginally run company for too long and now see FJ as your lifeboat and are willing to push us overboard to save yourself.

Let's face it, the root of your angst it that you feel superior to the Options pilots and you're pissed that they were not stapled to the bottom of the FX list, below you.

Here's a news flash for you. A Federal F**king judge has ruled that our SLI was done fairly and equitably. But you're some kind a Sky God right? You deserved to jump to the head of the line?

WAKE UP. You are being plaid like a fiddle in this whip saw game by management.

You've got two choices, find another job, or get involved with our union and help make this place better for all of us.

Thinking decert? When have you seen that actually happen?

 

[doh]

For the record, not one member of the Flexjet SLI committee was bullied into anything. And not one of us has said anything of the sort.

 

[luckydog]

Let's face it, the root of your angst it that you feel superior to the Options pilots and you're pissed that they were not stapled to the bottom of the FX list, below you.

That didn't take long at all.

I'll speak louder so maybe you'll get it.

NO, I DON"T THINK ME OR ANYONE AT THE OLD FJ IS SUPERIOR TO YOU!

YOU HAVE AN INFERIORITY ISSUE!

I NEVER SAID STAPLE. I WOULD NEVER HAVE STOOD FOR AN SLI OR FENCE AGREEMENT THAT STAPLED ANYONE!

Hopefully that got through.

You seem quite content to have 2/3rd or more of the FJ list behind you. You also seem very keen to prove how much better the FLOPs pilots are by equating seniority to skill. You have issues in your life.

If you notice, I never said the pilots were marginal, only the company you work for. There is a big difference.

And the Federal ********************ing Judge did make his decision; he didn't care about the result, only the process as it pertained to the transfer pilots. The issue of how the FJ pilots were treated was NEVER addressed.

Just like the threat of a union was effective for many years, you should consider the threat of a DECERT. BTW: How is the 1108 enjoying the big money flowing in from FJ, all 20 ppl.

 

[luckydog]

For the record, not one member of the Flexjet SLI committee was bullied into anything. And not one of us has said anything of the sort.

It must be really awkward having to contridict yourself in public. Next time you might just try saying nothing at all.

 

[Bjtdrvr]

That didn't take long at all.

I'll speak louder so maybe you'll get it.

NO, I DON"T THINK ME OR ANYONE AT THE OLD FJ IS SUPERIOR TO YOU!

YOU HAVE AN INFERIORITY ISSUE!

I NEVER SAID STAPLE. I WOULD NEVER HAVE STOOD FOR AN SLI OR FENCE AGREEMENT THAT STAPLED ANYONE!

Hopefully that got through.

You seem quite content to have 2/3rd or more of the FJ list behind you. You also seem very keen to prove how much better the FLOPs pilots are by equating seniority to skill. You have issues in your life.

If you notice, I never said the pilots were marginal, only the company you work for. There is a big difference.

And the Federal ********************ing Judge did make his decision; he didn't care about the result, only the process as it pertained to the transfer pilots. The issue of how the FJ pilots were treated was NEVER addressed.

Just like the threat of a union was effective for many years, you should consider the threat of a DECERT. BTW: How is the 1108 enjoying the big money flowing in from FJ, all 20 ppl.

Actually maybe you should read the judges decision before looking a bit foolish.

"The Flight Options /Flexjet pilot circumstances give support that the seniority merger process was fair and reasonable. Recall, both pilot groups were represented by the Pilots Union. And both pilot groups were roughly the same size. While any pilot seniority integration formula would advantage some pilots while disadvantaging others, the formula did not systemically benefit any subgroup of pilots.

Somewhat counterintuitively, the incoming Flexjet pilots generally received higher seniority rankings than the Flight Option pilots."


I separated this part out from the end but this is an exact quote from the judge