The new Airtran merger symbol

[waveflyer]

+1 red
We all know not every upgrade is equal- and definitely not this. When when upgrade's they take a hit in seniority in order to make money.
Please all you guys crying about QOL- tell me two things: how many AT FOs turned down their upgrade to keep weekends and holidays off?
And 2: how many of you have been junior at SWA-

Don't start minimizing how good you're about to have it.

 

[Music]

+1 red
We all know not every upgrade is equal- and definitely not this. When when upgrade's they take a hit in seniority in order to make money.
Please all you guys crying about QOL- tell me two things: how many AT FOs turned down their upgrade to keep weekends and holidays off?
And 2: how many of you have been junior at SWA-

Don't start minimizing how good you're about to have it.

Let me explain it this way. Everyone decides for themselves what they're willing to give up, in terms of QOL when they choose to upgrade. I upgraded 7 years ago and I took my first available upgrade opportunity.

AHAAH! you say. Not so fast.

At that time ATL was our only pilot domicile, so I knew where I was going to be. And because I commute, doing so within the Eastern time zone was important. Next, my wife and I were planning on her quitting her job and staying at home to raise the kids and my upgrade was going to help facilitate that process. As a result, weekends were not important to me at that time because the kids were so young and my wife was already at home.

So let's fast forward to today. My wife is still at home, but the kids are older and are in school during the week, so weekends have become much more important to me than they were then. My time at home is planned fairly carefully each month in order to maximize my time not only with my kids but my wife too. Unfortunately for me, this SLA would throw a large wrench into my family life as I would go from a Captain holding partial weekends off to being on reserve in ATL, then ultimately bouncing around the SW system with my degraded seniority. While voluntarily downgrading in order to maintain my QOL is an option, IMHO, that should come as the result of a ratified agreement, not the other way around. Stated another way, if I have to downgrade after the agreement has been ratified, then so be it, but I'm not going to vote to do it.

Notice, I didn't say anything about money. Again, everyone has a different motivation, that's all.

 

[scoreboardII]

You guys, are you working at Walmart 9-5 or have you voluntarily stepped up to the job in a TRAVEL industry, requiring, oh, say travel? I get the family thing, but your gone 3-5 days a week, cry me a river, NOT.

 

[waveflyer]

That's great for situation Music- and I honestly don't want you to spend less time at home- but that didn't answer my question- how many AT pilots have delayed upgrade for QOL? You have 1600 pilots, there is surely an answer in there-
No one did bc you didn't pay FOs well enough to ever turn down an upgrade- until we bought you-

I really think you're just complaining about being an airline pilot... This situation happens all the time with and without acquisitions - How many Air Wisconsin pilots stayed for decades so they could be home in Denver-? how many PSA pilots took their job to be based in Cali-? There's risk in every choice-


The question becomes- how can you argue that you get EVERYTHING in an acquisition where you were bought?
I've asked this several times and none of you answer bc you don't have one- please name 1 thing that Swapa pilots get out of this that AT pilots do not?
This will be good for all of us if we get through it and the culture survives- IF the culture survives-
Get greedy and it won't. I do define greed as getting ALL the benefits and arguing for more- Where is the two way street- where is the shared sacrifice?
You guys are pissing off this whole pilot group.
Congrats.

 

[Music]

That's great for situation Music- and I honestly don't want you to spend less time at home- but that didn't answer my question- how many AT pilots have delayed upgrade for QOL? You have 1600 pilots, there is surely an answer in there-
No one did bc you didn't pay FOs well enough to ever turn down an upgrade- until we bought you-

There are more than you think, but I don't know if it's quantifiable. You're statement is more akin to regional pay then pay at AT.

I really think you're just complaining about being an airline pilot... This situation happens all the time with and without acquisitions - How many Air Wisconsin pilots stayed for decades so they could be home in Denver-? how many PSA pilots took their job to be based in Cali-? There's risk in every choice-

I don't think it's dissimilar for any airline, really. I have a friend that has been at Delta for over 20 years and has never upgraded because of exactly the same QOL reasons I stated. Recently he was for forced to finally move domiciles because his was closed on the equipment he was flying. That's one example, and it is Delta, but for a time he didn't make much more than our FOs. I know, apples to oranges, but you get the analogy.

The question becomes- how can you argue that you get EVERYTHING in an acquisition where you were bought?
I've asked this several times and none of you answer bc you don't have one- please name 1 thing that Swapa pilots get out of this that AT pilots do not?
This will be good for all of us if we get through it and the culture survives- IF the culture survives-
Get greedy and it won't. I do define greed as getting ALL the benefits and arguing for more- Where is the two way street- where is the shared sacrifice?
You guys are pissing off this whole pilot group.
Congrats.

I'm not going to try and define it because everyone has a different point of view of what that is. I am not going to change your mind, and wouldn't presume to. I will also say that I certainly don't expect to get "Everything" either. I just have to evaluate what is there and vote accordingly. This agreement is just not it, that's all. I want it to be it, but it isn't.

 

[madjack]

Well Music, if your MC negotiated the $$ and now you want the seniority, that pretty much IS getting everything?

 

[Music]

Well Music, if your MC negotiated the $$ and now you want the seniority, that pretty much IS getting everything?

LOL! I know it does seem like double speak but all I'm saying as I wouldn't need all of the protections for my seat if the if SLI was a bit better. In other words, if I got bumped out of my seat as a result of my actual system seniority and not forced to do it because of QOL reasons, then I would be more apt to look at that than what's in front of me. The reason is that it would represent a more typical upgrade path while allowing me to utilize my seniority in a way that would be better for my family.

 

[SWA717]

Honestly, I think SWAPA and ALPA screwed up trying to save every AT capt seat. They should have settled for a little more seniority for the AT pilots and allowed some SWA FOs to upgrade. I know this would have costed SWA more money, but ultimately would have made more people happy on both sides.

 

[GuppyWN]

I'm insulted that Mr. Wilson 2005 hire keeps his seat over our 2001 hires. I am also flabbergasted that ALPA is screwing him out of ANY longevity bump when Mr. Wilson is downgraded to FO for Ty's return to the line.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Wilson is a no vote.

Gup

 

[asaflyer]

Honestly, I think SWAPA and ALPA screwed up trying to save every AT capt seat. They should have settled for a little more seniority for the AT pilots and allowed some SWA FOs to upgrade. I know this would have costed SWA more money, but ultimately would have made more people happy on both sides.

I agree 100%. Seems like it would make both sides happier.

 

[Music]

Honestly, I think SWAPA and ALPA screwed up trying to save every AT capt seat. They should have settled for a little more seniority for the AT pilots and allowed some SWA FOs to upgrade. I know this would have costed SWA more money, but ultimately would have made more people happy on both sides.

This is what I'm trying to say, more or less. IMHO, that would be more 'equitable' for both sides. 'Fair', well that's a lot harder to quantify as everyone is looking from a different perspective.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

That's great for situation Music- and I honestly don't want you to spend less time at home- but that didn't answer my question- how many AT pilots have delayed upgrade for QOL? You have 1600 pilots, there is surely an answer in there-
No one did bc you didn't pay FOs well enough to ever turn down an upgrade- until we bought you-

Years ago, I put off upgrade for a year for QOL issues, it was about a $65 an hour difference IIRC.

 

[Cruncher]

To the OP, nice post! I luv it!!

I have not been lurking here much these last couple weeks.

It seems pretty much both sides are pissed off with this AIP / SLI.

Mission accomplished I suppose.

Good luck to us all.

-C

 

[On Your Six]

Well Music, if your MC negotiated the $$ and now you want the seniority, that pretty much IS getting everything?

Should the AT guys get less money? GK is signing the paychecks, not SWAPA. So far successful mergers have finished the joint contract, with equal pay for same sized planes, prior to negotiating the SLI. Too bad you didn't go that route. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[Empennage]

Should the AT guys get less money? GK is signing the paychecks, not SWAPA. So far successful mergers have finished the joint contract, with equal pay for same sized planes, prior to negotiating the SLI. Too bad you didn't go that route. Godspeed!


OYS

Let me help you out with this matter.

Had both cbas been closer together in similarities, then a potential joint cba could have been part of the process. Why would both groups want to give up substantial gains in the end agreement? Airtran controlled that process with their strike vote and ratified cba. They could have negotiated an agreement much more in parity. I'll admit hypothetical in many ways. That would have potentially allowed for the process. Moot point.

Case in point. Do you recall when Mesa was looking to purchase aca? Why did the aca pilots feel the way they did? It would have triggered a joint cba.

Second...

See alpa merger policy. See Swapa merger policy.

In closing, we can put this matter to rest.