The logic of relative seniority

[zman]

General Lee and Max--you guys are guilty of group think: relative seniority will be good for both of you so everyone else should think it's great as well. Trust me on one thing--if it's relative seniority, 95% of the Airtran pilots will be happy and 95% of the SWA pilots will be pissed off--and the Airtran pilots will wonder why the SWA pilots don't think like they do.

Does that sound like the Nicolau award? If you think the hard feelings will die quickly you'll be greatly disappointed.

The big differences in opinion: Airtran guys keep talking about pay rates that they will get with their new contract. SWA guys look at that and think, "Yeah right. Like that would've happened without the merger." How about we let you guys go on strike for a couple of months to get somewhere halfway between what you think you'd be getting without the merger and what you have now.
Also, like SWA in the 90s, Airtrans growth has been subsidized over the past 10 years by low wages. If Airtran would have been getting normal pay rates, Airtran wouldn't have grown. Hence, SWA guys look at it as the Airtran pilots paid for their growth in the form of reduced wages--and would be rewarded by the seniority bump in a relative seniority scenario. Do you think any major would have considered a relative seniority integration with SWA fair 10 years ago? Then don't expect the SWA pilots to expect to choke one down with Airtran now.

If you think that the Airtran pilots will not fight for relative seniority to make Southwest guys happy your smoking crack. If you want to destroy your culture by making it like the USAir/AWA culture go right ahead. I dont give a rats ass about your feel good bull******************** culture anyways. If the Southwest pilots are looking for a fight they will find it!

 

[MILPILOT17]

Your post has been forwarded accordingly.

 

[zman]

MILPILOT17 If you think that Southwest pilots can continue to make statements and that they wont get forwarded as well your wrong. To state that "Does that sound like the Nicolau award? If you think the hard feelings will die quickly you'll be greatly disappointed" and expect us to not respond your insane. To me that statement sounds as if we dont get what we want there will be hell to pay. I am stating the obvious if you think you can push us around and say those type of things to us, your wrong. Remember Southwest needs Airtran, if it could have been achieved organically Southwest would have done it. Whats amazing is how quickly Southwest is showing its true colors of the "LUV" that they truely dont have.

 

[Ty Webb]

How about you give me your seniority number and I will run your numbers before and after the merger and I will show everyone what I am talking about? Until then, STFU! What a frickin jag

"Redtail" seems appropriate here, as in one of those apes at the zoo with the humongous red asses. You need to chill, pall, before you blow an artery.

 

[Ty Webb]

Does that sound like the Nicolau award? If you think the hard feelings will die quickly you'll be greatly disappointed.

The problem wasn't the award, is was the decision by the USAirways pilot group to reject the results of binding arbitration and burn the house down.

Whatever the arbitrator decides, it will not be the fault of either pilot group; however, how it is handled will say a lot about each pilot group. Knowing what I do about the two pilot groups, I'm cautiously optimistic.

And Zman, breathe in, breathe out, man. Don't let this thing turn nasty.

 

[Bwipilot]

To me that statement sounds as if we dont get what we want there will be hell to pay. I am stating the obvious if you think you can push us around and say those type of things to us, your wrong. Whats amazing is how quickly Southwest is showing its true colors of the "LUV" that they truely dont have.

The statement was a reply to General Lee and his ilk that the SWA pilots should be happy with relative seniority. I'm pointing out that SWA pilots don't agree. The true colors of SWA pilots it took a lot of effort to get the job, including investing in a $10K type rating and passing the culture exam--and don't like that Airtran pilots think they should slot in on a curve.

It's a matter of who's shoes you're standing in. As others have said, I'll be shocked if it doesn't go to an arbitrator.

 

[T3700]

passing the culture exam

Trust me, the last thing an arbitrator is going to take into account is the fact that you had a better smiley face on than someone else the day you interviewed.

The arbitrator is required to:

a. Preserve jobs.

No one is going to lose their job regardless of the method of integration

b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.

AirTran pilots do get a pay raise but it is not at the expense of SWA pilots

c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.

AirTran pilots pay goes up SWA pilots stays the same. Standard of living? Taking a senior AirTran pilot and who gets the schedule he wants, holidays off and the domicile he wants, and put him at the bottom of your list and give him reserve at OAK. That is not preserving a standard of living.

d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.

A relative seniority merge will not result in a change of status for any SWA pilot. A staple will result in a detrimental change in status for 800 AirTran Captains.

e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

The AirTran purchase is bringing growth to an airline that was going to stagnate for the next few years. A relative merge will accomplish the goal of minimizing detrimental changes to career expectations. A staple would be incredibly detrimental to AirTran pilots.

The only argument for stapling the AirTran pilots is the supposed windfall because of SWA higher pay. This pay increase does not come at the expense of SWA pilots and will be disregarded by an arbitrator.

An agreement is possible as long as neither side has unreasonable expectations. If this goes to arbitration, you can be sure that the SLI will be much closer to a straight relative seniority merge than a staple.

I for one hope we can come to a reasonable agreement. I have no desire to spend the rest of my flying career in an US vs THEM environment like US Air.

 

[jonjuan]

The true colors of SWA pilots it took a lot of effort to get the job, including investing in a $10K type rating and passing the culture exam--and don't like that Airtran pilots think they should slot in on a curve.

LOL-the culture exam? Are you saying some f16 kernals are southwest people and some aren't? You're a friggin pilot, like many of whom either couldn't get hired anywhere else prior to 2000 or didn't want anything to do with flying for southwest UNTIL after 9/11. Oh yeah, the investment of $10K for a 737 type-see previous answer. They had to purchase it as they A) couldn't get hired anywhere else and/or B) they were the only place hiring. If you think an arbitrator won't take this into account, you've been slurpin' the Favor-aid.
He'll simply think, "As long as one group doesn't lose a thing, who cares what it takes for the other group to gain parity? Once a Captain, always a Captain." No WAY he'll downgrade those who have made it to the left seat.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4037561

 

[Cometman]

LOL-the culture exam? Are you saying some f16 kernals are southwest people and some aren't? You're a friggin pilot, like many of whom either couldn't get hired anywhere else prior to 2000 or didn't want anything to do with flying for southwest UNTIL after 9/11. Oh yeah, the investment of $10K for a 737 type-see previous answer. They had to purchase it as they A) couldn't get hired anywhere else and/or B) they were the only place hiring. If you think an arbitrator won't take this into account, you've been slurpin' the Favor-aid.
He'll simply think, "As long as one group doesn't lose a thing, who cares what it takes for the other group to gain parity? Once a Captain, always a Captain." No WAY he'll downgrade those who have made it to the left seat.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4037561

So, let me see if I understand what this means. If a new airline started today and hired 10 pilots. Five are Captains and 5 are first officers. Then in 3 years Delta bought them and had to merge the lists. The number one guy at the new airline would then get relative seniority and get put into the Delta list? I guess since he was in the top 1% at his airline he would be in the top 1% of the merged list?

 

[jonjuan]

So, let me see if I understand what this means. If a new airline started today and hired 10 pilots. Five are Captains and 5 are first officers. Then in 3 years Delta bought them and had to merge the lists. The number one guy at the new airline would then get relative seniority and get put into the Delta list? I guess since he was in the top 1% at his airline he would be in the top 1% of the merged list?

Why not exaggerate a little more and use an airline of 2 pilots started yesterday at 12 PM being acquired by Delta at 1 PM? LOL.....