The logic of relative seniority

[redflyer65]

under the new AirTran CBA

What Airtran CBA? Did I miss something?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

All a pilot group brings to "the table" is their contract.

Put down the beer or get a brain implant.

SWA was not able to buy what Air Tran is bring to the table. The SWA Cinderella syndrome.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Do you think the "masses" are incapable of using logic, or is it just you?

Do you think political outcomes are made using logic? An integration is a political football. Logic is not used to decide it. Force, persuasion, threats, and lies decide politics.

Get out of your staple'm'all dream world because SWA is just another legacy.

 

[General Lee]

On day one of the merger, then over the next 15 years DAL pilots gain between 10-15% due to NWA retirements that would not have happened at DAL, while NWA pilots lose between 2-20%. Those damn facts again huh? Full story please.

Just a bonus if you get to move up at someone else's expense along the way. And look at all the bases your NWA guys have moved to? Wow, there sure has been a shift. Thank gawd I am still senior here in ATL, but a lot of guys I fly with now seem to be FNWA, and they are really happy to be ATL based. They don't seem too sad to me.



Bullcrap, the DAL guys moved up plenty due to the DAL guys leaving pre and during BK. Now they get the added bonus of moving up more due to the NWA retirements. You had old planes that were going away. Don't think that you deserved all that seniority for your few number of "Super duper premium widebody" planes. When you got rid of the old whales (which was known in arbitration), it hurt your chances.

How about you give me your seniority number and I will run your numbers before and after the merger and I will show everyone what I am talking about? Until then, STFU! What a frickin jag How about I don't and just enjoy my life, since 3 arbitrators decided it. You can blame them and your lawyer all you want.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Just thinking]

Pay WILL go up for the Airtran pilots. The gap between payscales will still exist thereby allowing the Airtran pilots to gain further after the integration. There has already been a "gain" for the Southwest pilots due to the canceling of classes at Airtran and the immediate surge for Southwest classes. There will be no displacement of Southwest Captains. There "may" be a potential displacement of junior Airtran Captains depending on the arbitration. Those displaced Captains WILL be losing $ if displaced because the new CBA rates will be higher than Southwest FO pay. 800's are coming on line and my guess is with international growth there will not be a huge reduction in hulls from the Southwest stable. Airtran deliveries have stopped on the 737 side. Those will be going to your stable.

From the Southwest 2nd QTR report:
"Given the current economic outlook and trends, we continue to approach route expansion through optimizing our flight schedule rather than fleet growth. We remain committed to reaching our financial targets before we return to any significant level of fleet growth. For 2010, our capacity will remain essentially flat with last year. For 2011, we are estimating a modest year-over-year capacity increase with no fleet growth. Although it is too early to commit, at present, we have no plans to grow the fleet in 2012, either. We will continue to monitor trends for changes and are prepared to adjust our schedule, accordingly.”

To make the argument that Airtran pilots will be gaining a HUGE windfall is not fair. Southwest pilots are already making gains.

The Southwest pilot group is the most productive in the industry. They are successfull and have a great work ethic. They make things happen to accomplish the mission. They have the support of management. They have great attitudes.

The Airtran pilot group is almost as productive. We have to suffer with inefficient scheduling which prevents us from being more productive. We have a management team that treats us with disdain, schedulers who go out of their way to screw you over, gate agents with atlantatude and an overall work atmosphere that can challenge the most upbeat person. We still make it happen on a daily basis. We have been screwed over by managment and by past union leadership. This pilot group will have enormous success working within the culture of Southwest Airlines. As the integration goes you will find a motivated working group that will be an asset and not a liability.

 

[scoreboardII]

schedulers who go out of their way to screw you over,

Just thinking, detail this please as I bet some of those schedulers will be coming on over, name names. Not saying we don't have our share of "jetway JA Joes" over at SWA, but most schedulers here will try to do the right thing, even if you think that isn't the right thing right now. I do know, you call Uncle, and they willbend over backwards to help you.

 

[FDJ2]

However, what should be explored is portable longevity not seniorty.....

Yep, it certainly should.

 

[PCL_128]

Yep, it certainly should.

You know, there was a candidate who was advocating that.

Seriously, though, I hope this concept is explored further as the new administration comes into Herndon. It would solve a huge number of problems that we face as a profession.

 

[Bwipilot]

General Lee and Max--you guys are guilty of group think: relative seniority will be good for both of you so everyone else should think it's great as well. Trust me on one thing--if it's relative seniority, 95% of the Airtran pilots will be happy and 95% of the SWA pilots will be pissed off--and the Airtran pilots will wonder why the SWA pilots don't think like they do.

Does that sound like the Nicolau award? If you think the hard feelings will die quickly you'll be greatly disappointed.

The big differences in opinion: Airtran guys keep talking about pay rates that they will get with their new contract. SWA guys look at that and think, "Yeah right. Like that would've happened without the merger." How about we let you guys go on strike for a couple of months to get somewhere halfway between what you think you'd be getting without the merger and what you have now.
Also, like SWA in the 90s, Airtrans growth has been subsidized over the past 10 years by low wages. If Airtran would have been getting normal pay rates, Airtran wouldn't have grown. Hence, SWA guys look at it as the Airtran pilots paid for their growth in the form of reduced wages--and would be rewarded by the seniority bump in a relative seniority scenario. Do you think any major would have considered a relative seniority integration with SWA fair 10 years ago? Then don't expect the SWA pilots to expect to choke one down with Airtran now.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Seriously, though, I hope this concept is explored further as the new administration comes into Herndon. It would solve a huge number of problems that we face as a profession.

It all comes down to money and who is going to pay for it....

I suspect that in times of growth, this would not cost much money.

However, it times like the lost decade that we are in... it would be expensive... who is going to pay for it?

First, for example, longevity would start when a pilot is hired by a qualifying airline. A detail would be defining a qualifying airline.


Who pays for longevity credits when an experienced pilot is furloughed?

ALPA If ALPA paid for it, then it would be funded by the pilots themselves. An assessment above dues. (bad choice as the union would be doing what govt/industry should be doing)

Industry Management would pay for it. And what they would be buying is experienced pilots for their airline.

Govt Tax payers pay for it. It is seen as a collective good for the country to have experienced pilots flying the National Airspace System (NAS). Funds could come from a ticket tax or the general treasury.

Or a subsidzed blend of industry and govt.

Industry resistance would be strong from the ATA and RAA and other groups. Taxing tickets or raising labor cost is a big no no. Also, this industry loves to recycle labor rates. The more workers on first year pay the better....


Resistance will also come from pilots. For example, if we are basically saying that experience has value. (Currently we do not) Then it could also work in a normal career progression. Pilot A works at the regionals for 10 years, gets hired at a legacy carrier and starts at zero seniority but 10 year longevity. (or a reasonable ratio). Pilots currently on the seniority list simply couldn't stand the fact another pilot, while junior to them was potentially making more money....

 

[zman]

General Lee and Max--you guys are guilty of group think: relative seniority will be good for both of you so everyone else should think it's great as well. Trust me on one thing--if it's relative seniority, 95% of the Airtran pilots will be happy and 95% of the SWA pilots will be pissed off--and the Airtran pilots will wonder why the SWA pilots don't think like they do.

Does that sound like the Nicolau award? If you think the hard feelings will die quickly you'll be greatly disappointed.

The big differences in opinion: Airtran guys keep talking about pay rates that they will get with their new contract. SWA guys look at that and think, "Yeah right. Like that would've happened without the merger." How about we let you guys go on strike for a couple of months to get somewhere halfway between what you think you'd be getting without the merger and what you have now.
Also, like SWA in the 90s, Airtrans growth has been subsidized over the past 10 years by low wages. If Airtran would have been getting normal pay rates, Airtran wouldn't have grown. Hence, SWA guys look at it as the Airtran pilots paid for their growth in the form of reduced wages--and would be rewarded by the seniority bump in a relative seniority scenario. Do you think any major would have considered a relative seniority integration with SWA fair 10 years ago? Then don't expect the SWA pilots to expect to choke one down with Airtran now.

If you think that the Airtran pilots will not fight for relative seniority to make Southwest guys happy your smoking crack. If you want to destroy your culture by making it like the USAir/AWA culture go right ahead. I dont give a rats ass about your feel good bull******************** culture anyways. If the Southwest pilots are looking for a fight they will find it!

 

[MILPILOT17]

Your post has been forwarded accordingly.

 

[zman]

MILPILOT17 If you think that Southwest pilots can continue to make statements and that they wont get forwarded as well your wrong. To state that "Does that sound like the Nicolau award? If you think the hard feelings will die quickly you'll be greatly disappointed" and expect us to not respond your insane. To me that statement sounds as if we dont get what we want there will be hell to pay. I am stating the obvious if you think you can push us around and say those type of things to us, your wrong. Remember Southwest needs Airtran, if it could have been achieved organically Southwest would have done it. Whats amazing is how quickly Southwest is showing its true colors of the "LUV" that they truely dont have.

 

[Ty Webb]

How about you give me your seniority number and I will run your numbers before and after the merger and I will show everyone what I am talking about? Until then, STFU! What a frickin jag

"Redtail" seems appropriate here, as in one of those apes at the zoo with the humongous red asses. You need to chill, pall, before you blow an artery.

 

[Ty Webb]

Does that sound like the Nicolau award? If you think the hard feelings will die quickly you'll be greatly disappointed.

The problem wasn't the award, is was the decision by the USAirways pilot group to reject the results of binding arbitration and burn the house down.

Whatever the arbitrator decides, it will not be the fault of either pilot group; however, how it is handled will say a lot about each pilot group. Knowing what I do about the two pilot groups, I'm cautiously optimistic.

And Zman, breathe in, breathe out, man. Don't let this thing turn nasty.

 

[Bwipilot]

To me that statement sounds as if we dont get what we want there will be hell to pay. I am stating the obvious if you think you can push us around and say those type of things to us, your wrong. Whats amazing is how quickly Southwest is showing its true colors of the "LUV" that they truely dont have.

The statement was a reply to General Lee and his ilk that the SWA pilots should be happy with relative seniority. I'm pointing out that SWA pilots don't agree. The true colors of SWA pilots it took a lot of effort to get the job, including investing in a $10K type rating and passing the culture exam--and don't like that Airtran pilots think they should slot in on a curve.

It's a matter of who's shoes you're standing in. As others have said, I'll be shocked if it doesn't go to an arbitrator.

 

[T3700]

passing the culture exam

Trust me, the last thing an arbitrator is going to take into account is the fact that you had a better smiley face on than someone else the day you interviewed.

The arbitrator is required to:

a. Preserve jobs.

No one is going to lose their job regardless of the method of integration

b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.

AirTran pilots do get a pay raise but it is not at the expense of SWA pilots

c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.

AirTran pilots pay goes up SWA pilots stays the same. Standard of living? Taking a senior AirTran pilot and who gets the schedule he wants, holidays off and the domicile he wants, and put him at the bottom of your list and give him reserve at OAK. That is not preserving a standard of living.

d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.

A relative seniority merge will not result in a change of status for any SWA pilot. A staple will result in a detrimental change in status for 800 AirTran Captains.

e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

The AirTran purchase is bringing growth to an airline that was going to stagnate for the next few years. A relative merge will accomplish the goal of minimizing detrimental changes to career expectations. A staple would be incredibly detrimental to AirTran pilots.

The only argument for stapling the AirTran pilots is the supposed windfall because of SWA higher pay. This pay increase does not come at the expense of SWA pilots and will be disregarded by an arbitrator.

An agreement is possible as long as neither side has unreasonable expectations. If this goes to arbitration, you can be sure that the SLI will be much closer to a straight relative seniority merge than a staple.

I for one hope we can come to a reasonable agreement. I have no desire to spend the rest of my flying career in an US vs THEM environment like US Air.

 

[jonjuan]

The true colors of SWA pilots it took a lot of effort to get the job, including investing in a $10K type rating and passing the culture exam--and don't like that Airtran pilots think they should slot in on a curve.

LOL-the culture exam? Are you saying some f16 kernals are southwest people and some aren't? You're a friggin pilot, like many of whom either couldn't get hired anywhere else prior to 2000 or didn't want anything to do with flying for southwest UNTIL after 9/11. Oh yeah, the investment of $10K for a 737 type-see previous answer. They had to purchase it as they A) couldn't get hired anywhere else and/or B) they were the only place hiring. If you think an arbitrator won't take this into account, you've been slurpin' the Favor-aid.
He'll simply think, "As long as one group doesn't lose a thing, who cares what it takes for the other group to gain parity? Once a Captain, always a Captain." No WAY he'll downgrade those who have made it to the left seat.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4037561

 

[Cometman]

LOL-the culture exam? Are you saying some f16 kernals are southwest people and some aren't? You're a friggin pilot, like many of whom either couldn't get hired anywhere else prior to 2000 or didn't want anything to do with flying for southwest UNTIL after 9/11. Oh yeah, the investment of $10K for a 737 type-see previous answer. They had to purchase it as they A) couldn't get hired anywhere else and/or B) they were the only place hiring. If you think an arbitrator won't take this into account, you've been slurpin' the Favor-aid.
He'll simply think, "As long as one group doesn't lose a thing, who cares what it takes for the other group to gain parity? Once a Captain, always a Captain." No WAY he'll downgrade those who have made it to the left seat.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4037561

So, let me see if I understand what this means. If a new airline started today and hired 10 pilots. Five are Captains and 5 are first officers. Then in 3 years Delta bought them and had to merge the lists. The number one guy at the new airline would then get relative seniority and get put into the Delta list? I guess since he was in the top 1% at his airline he would be in the top 1% of the merged list?

 

[jonjuan]

So, let me see if I understand what this means. If a new airline started today and hired 10 pilots. Five are Captains and 5 are first officers. Then in 3 years Delta bought them and had to merge the lists. The number one guy at the new airline would then get relative seniority and get put into the Delta list? I guess since he was in the top 1% at his airline he would be in the top 1% of the merged list?

Why not exaggerate a little more and use an airline of 2 pilots started yesterday at 12 PM being acquired by Delta at 1 PM? LOL.....