The logic of relative seniority

[nwaredtail]

Overall, DL and NWA pilots stayed within about 2% of where they were relative to their own original list.

On day one of the merger, then over the next 15 years DAL pilots gain between 10-15% due to NWA retirements that would not have happened at DAL, while NWA pilots lose between 2-20%. Those damn facts again huh? Full story please.

Relative seniority is fair because it keeps you CLOSE to what you were doing before a merger.

Just a bonus if you get to move up at someone else's expense along the way.

In the DL/NWA merger, the NWA pilots stood to upgrade a lot faster than the DL pilots because most of the senior NWA pilots stayed at NWA during the BK because they kept their pensions. That did not happen at DL, where many Captains left before BK. That upgrade potential was not awarded to the NWA guys overall.

Bullcrap, the DAL guys moved up plenty due to the DAL guys leaving pre and during BK. Now they get the added bonus of moving up more due to the NWA retirements.

How about you give me your seniority number and I will run your numbers before and after the merger and I will show everyone what I am talking about? Until then, STFU! What a frickin jag

 

[Scope out RJ's]

On day one of the merger, then over the next 15 years DAL pilots gain between 10-15% due to NWA retirements that would not have happened at DAL, while NWA pilots lose between 2-20%. Those damn facts again huh? Full story please.

Just a bonus if you get to move up at someone else's expense along the way.



Bullcrap, the DAL guys moved up plenty due to the DAL guys leaving pre and during BK. Now they get the added bonus of moving up more due to the NWA retirements.

How about you give me your seniority number and I will run your numbers before and after the merger and I will show everyone what I am talking about? Until then, STFU! What a frickin jag

:crying::crying::crying:

STFU you crybaby!

 

[Empennage]

Lot of class on this board, especially from all those with no dog in the fight.

Yet what really matters is ...

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

....and you keep ignoring it (at least OK3 read this).

 

[manflex srs rwy]

I think a major problem with relative seniority is that it only protects where you are right now.

Take a 40 year old junior UAL pilot (me). I am not particularly young to be a pilot, but at UA I am still one of the youngest guys on the property. Someday, in spite of our current stagnation, I would be in the top 100 pilots at this company, no growth necessary - just the inevitable march of retirements.

Now we are merging with a company that has hired plenty in the last decade. Going by a straight relative seniority merge, I would be placed junior to about 1000 pilots that are younger than me (and hired up to nine years after me).

Sure my existing junior NB copilot seniority is protected (yay!) but my future flying capt on a WB is severely maimed, if not killed outright.

That is what is wrong with relative seniority, IMHO.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Ok, I will bite on this one.......As an AirTran guy - if we go relative seniority I will lose out. Put yourself in my shoes. AirTran stays AirTran I upgrade to CPT in 2 years under the existing aircraft order structure. With relative seniority and a merge into SWA upgrade is a probably a decade off. As a AirTran CPT I would make more under the new AirTran CBA then as a SWA FO.

Using logic I think the only fair way is a relative seniority integration. We do bring a lot to the table and so do you! I hope we become a power house and we grow like weeds with upgrades all around.

With all due respect, All a pilot group brings to "the table" is their contract.
Year 5 SWA FO is Higher than Yr 5 AT Capt. And thats before even before rigs. I dont see how you lose money. That being said, I believe something will be found that will benefit everyone.

 

[redflyer65]

under the new AirTran CBA

What Airtran CBA? Did I miss something?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

All a pilot group brings to "the table" is their contract.

Put down the beer or get a brain implant.

SWA was not able to buy what Air Tran is bring to the table. The SWA Cinderella syndrome.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Do you think the "masses" are incapable of using logic, or is it just you?

Do you think political outcomes are made using logic? An integration is a political football. Logic is not used to decide it. Force, persuasion, threats, and lies decide politics.

Get out of your staple'm'all dream world because SWA is just another legacy.

 

[General Lee]

On day one of the merger, then over the next 15 years DAL pilots gain between 10-15% due to NWA retirements that would not have happened at DAL, while NWA pilots lose between 2-20%. Those damn facts again huh? Full story please.

Just a bonus if you get to move up at someone else's expense along the way. And look at all the bases your NWA guys have moved to? Wow, there sure has been a shift. Thank gawd I am still senior here in ATL, but a lot of guys I fly with now seem to be FNWA, and they are really happy to be ATL based. They don't seem too sad to me.



Bullcrap, the DAL guys moved up plenty due to the DAL guys leaving pre and during BK. Now they get the added bonus of moving up more due to the NWA retirements. You had old planes that were going away. Don't think that you deserved all that seniority for your few number of "Super duper premium widebody" planes. When you got rid of the old whales (which was known in arbitration), it hurt your chances.

How about you give me your seniority number and I will run your numbers before and after the merger and I will show everyone what I am talking about? Until then, STFU! What a frickin jag How about I don't and just enjoy my life, since 3 arbitrators decided it. You can blame them and your lawyer all you want.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Just thinking]

Pay WILL go up for the Airtran pilots. The gap between payscales will still exist thereby allowing the Airtran pilots to gain further after the integration. There has already been a "gain" for the Southwest pilots due to the canceling of classes at Airtran and the immediate surge for Southwest classes. There will be no displacement of Southwest Captains. There "may" be a potential displacement of junior Airtran Captains depending on the arbitration. Those displaced Captains WILL be losing $ if displaced because the new CBA rates will be higher than Southwest FO pay. 800's are coming on line and my guess is with international growth there will not be a huge reduction in hulls from the Southwest stable. Airtran deliveries have stopped on the 737 side. Those will be going to your stable.

From the Southwest 2nd QTR report:
"Given the current economic outlook and trends, we continue to approach route expansion through optimizing our flight schedule rather than fleet growth. We remain committed to reaching our financial targets before we return to any significant level of fleet growth. For 2010, our capacity will remain essentially flat with last year. For 2011, we are estimating a modest year-over-year capacity increase with no fleet growth. Although it is too early to commit, at present, we have no plans to grow the fleet in 2012, either. We will continue to monitor trends for changes and are prepared to adjust our schedule, accordingly.”

To make the argument that Airtran pilots will be gaining a HUGE windfall is not fair. Southwest pilots are already making gains.

The Southwest pilot group is the most productive in the industry. They are successfull and have a great work ethic. They make things happen to accomplish the mission. They have the support of management. They have great attitudes.

The Airtran pilot group is almost as productive. We have to suffer with inefficient scheduling which prevents us from being more productive. We have a management team that treats us with disdain, schedulers who go out of their way to screw you over, gate agents with atlantatude and an overall work atmosphere that can challenge the most upbeat person. We still make it happen on a daily basis. We have been screwed over by managment and by past union leadership. This pilot group will have enormous success working within the culture of Southwest Airlines. As the integration goes you will find a motivated working group that will be an asset and not a liability.

 

[scoreboardII]

schedulers who go out of their way to screw you over,

Just thinking, detail this please as I bet some of those schedulers will be coming on over, name names. Not saying we don't have our share of "jetway JA Joes" over at SWA, but most schedulers here will try to do the right thing, even if you think that isn't the right thing right now. I do know, you call Uncle, and they willbend over backwards to help you.

 

[FDJ2]

However, what should be explored is portable longevity not seniorty.....

Yep, it certainly should.

 

[PCL_128]

Yep, it certainly should.

You know, there was a candidate who was advocating that.

Seriously, though, I hope this concept is explored further as the new administration comes into Herndon. It would solve a huge number of problems that we face as a profession.

 

[Bwipilot]

General Lee and Max--you guys are guilty of group think: relative seniority will be good for both of you so everyone else should think it's great as well. Trust me on one thing--if it's relative seniority, 95% of the Airtran pilots will be happy and 95% of the SWA pilots will be pissed off--and the Airtran pilots will wonder why the SWA pilots don't think like they do.

Does that sound like the Nicolau award? If you think the hard feelings will die quickly you'll be greatly disappointed.

The big differences in opinion: Airtran guys keep talking about pay rates that they will get with their new contract. SWA guys look at that and think, "Yeah right. Like that would've happened without the merger." How about we let you guys go on strike for a couple of months to get somewhere halfway between what you think you'd be getting without the merger and what you have now.
Also, like SWA in the 90s, Airtrans growth has been subsidized over the past 10 years by low wages. If Airtran would have been getting normal pay rates, Airtran wouldn't have grown. Hence, SWA guys look at it as the Airtran pilots paid for their growth in the form of reduced wages--and would be rewarded by the seniority bump in a relative seniority scenario. Do you think any major would have considered a relative seniority integration with SWA fair 10 years ago? Then don't expect the SWA pilots to expect to choke one down with Airtran now.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Seriously, though, I hope this concept is explored further as the new administration comes into Herndon. It would solve a huge number of problems that we face as a profession.

It all comes down to money and who is going to pay for it....

I suspect that in times of growth, this would not cost much money.

However, it times like the lost decade that we are in... it would be expensive... who is going to pay for it?

First, for example, longevity would start when a pilot is hired by a qualifying airline. A detail would be defining a qualifying airline.


Who pays for longevity credits when an experienced pilot is furloughed?

ALPA If ALPA paid for it, then it would be funded by the pilots themselves. An assessment above dues. (bad choice as the union would be doing what govt/industry should be doing)

Industry Management would pay for it. And what they would be buying is experienced pilots for their airline.

Govt Tax payers pay for it. It is seen as a collective good for the country to have experienced pilots flying the National Airspace System (NAS). Funds could come from a ticket tax or the general treasury.

Or a subsidzed blend of industry and govt.

Industry resistance would be strong from the ATA and RAA and other groups. Taxing tickets or raising labor cost is a big no no. Also, this industry loves to recycle labor rates. The more workers on first year pay the better....


Resistance will also come from pilots. For example, if we are basically saying that experience has value. (Currently we do not) Then it could also work in a normal career progression. Pilot A works at the regionals for 10 years, gets hired at a legacy carrier and starts at zero seniority but 10 year longevity. (or a reasonable ratio). Pilots currently on the seniority list simply couldn't stand the fact another pilot, while junior to them was potentially making more money....