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The JetBlue Incident Shows Why Pilots Should Make 200K

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NYC99IA062
On February 16, 1999, at 1602 Eastern Standard Time, an Airbus A-320-231, N628AW, operated by America West Airlines as flight 2811, received minor damage when it landed at Port Columbus International Airport (CMH), Columbus, Ohio, with the nose wheels rotated 90 degrees. There were no injuries to the 2 certificated pilots, 3 flight attendants and 26 passengers. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the scheduled passenger flight which had departed from Newark (EWR), New Jersey, about 1404. Flight 2811 was operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan conducted under 14 CFR Part 121.

According to statements from the flight crew, flight 2811 was uneventful until the landing gear was lowered prior to landing at CMH. After the landing gear was extended to the down-and-locked position, the flight crew received indications of dual landing gear control and interface unit (LGCIU) faults.

The flight crew entered into a holding pattern and attempted to troubleshoot the faults; however, they were unable to determine the source of the problem. The flight crew then prepared for a landing at CMH, with nosewheel steering and thrust reversers inoperative due to the faults. During the final approach, at the flight crew's request, the control tower performed a visual check of the landing gear, which revealed that the nosewheels were rotated about 90 degrees.

The flight crew then initiated a missed approach and declared an emergency. The cabin crew was notified of an impending emergency landing, and the cabin and passengers were prepared for the landing. The captain initiated the approach, and described the touchdown as soft. The airplane stopped on the 10,250-foot-long runway with about 2,500 feet of runway remaining. Damage was limited to the nose landing gear tires and rims.

The captain reported that after landing, he noticed smoke was drifting up on the right side of the airplane. He said he attempted to contact the control tower and confirm if a fire was present, but was unable due to frequency congestion. He then initiated an emergency evacuation using the left and right side overwing exits.

A review of the air/ground communications, as recorded by the Columbus Air Traffic Control Tower, did not reveal a congested frequency when the emergency evacuation was initiated.

According to Airbus, nose wheel steering was hydraulically actuated through either the cockpit tiller and/or the rudder pedals.

A post-incident visual inspection of the nose landing gear assembly revealed no anomalies. The steering control module was replaced, and a subsequent functional check of the nosewheel steering was successful.

The steering control module was a sealed unit, opened only during overhaul, with no specified overhaul time, and had accumulated 3,860 hours since last overhauled on March 3, 1998. It was shipped to Messier-Bugatti, the manufacturer, and examined under the supervision of the French Bureau Enquetes Accidents (BEA). The examination revealed that the external hydraulic O-ring seals on the steering control module's selector valve were extruded (distorted out of the seal's groove). A small offset was found in the steering control valve.

Airbus further reported that while the offset would have been measurable, it would not have been noticeable under normal operations. Additionally, during landing gear extension, the brake and steering control unit (BSCU) would have been energized and hydraulic pressure would have been directed toward the steering servo valve. The BSCU would have then commanded a small rotation of the nose wheel to check for proper movement. Any disagreement between the commanded position and actual position of the nose wheel would have deactivated the nose wheel steering. However, if hydraulic pressure had bypassed the steering control valve, there would have been continued pressurization to the servo valve, and because of the servo valve's inherent offset, in-flight rotation of the nose wheels.

Procedures existed for removal of hydraulic pressure from the steering control module. However, once the nosewheel strut had deflected 90 degrees, the centering cam would have been rotated to a flat area, and would have been incapable of overriding the 3,000 PSI hydraulic system, and returning the nose wheels to a centered position.

Documents from Airbus indicated there have been three similar incidents in which A320 airplanes landed with the nose wheels rotated about 90 degrees. Examination of the steering control modules on two of the airplanes revealed extrusion of the selector valve's external seals similar to that found on N628AW. Airbus had attributed the extrusion failures to the lack of a backup seal or the effects of aging on the seals. As a result of these incidents, Airbus issued Service Bulletin (SB) A320-32-1197 on October 8, 1998, to recommend replacement of the external seals on the steering control module's selector valve on A320 and A321 airplanes within 18 months of the SB's issuance.

At the time of the incident, neither the French Direction General de l'Aviation Civile (DGAC), or the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), had adopted the service bulletin as an airworthiness directive. The operator was not required to comply with the service bulletin, and had not complied with it.

On March 24, 1999, the DGAC issued Airworthiness Directive (AD) 1999-124-129(B) to require compliance with the SB. On December 17, 1999, the FAA issued AD 99-23-09 which was based upon the French AD, with a 12 month time of compliance for modification of the nose wheel steering control valve.
 
Ace757 said:
This job seems easy to you because you have been doing it for awhile, and feel comfortable. I bet Dr's who have been around awhile don't think there job is that hard. Just rememer all the training you had to go through to get where you are. Remember how much money it cost you. Remember working as a CFI for $10 an hr. Remember taking a pay cut to go to the regionals, remember waiting 10 years to make a descent wage. Remember all you have sacrificed for this career. Don't let anyone take any meaning away from that. No one works harder to get to the top than a pilot. Hell.....you get tested every 6 months, and have to get medicals, and if anything shows up your career is over. Yes there are alot of pilots. BUT, all and all I think we are a pretty inteligent group. I don't think it is true that anyone can fly an airplane. It just seems that way to you now because you know what you are doing.

I completely understand what you're saying. It's a true shame what is happening to our profession. Unfourtunately, what you and others have chose to sacrifice for an airline career doesn't play in the equation.

Nindiri said:
ATC controllers, firemen, security screeners, to name a few.

I'm not saying that pilots don't deserve big money, just that it isn't based on responsibility. It's based on what you can negotiate and how easily you can be replaced.

That is the bottom line. Why pay a life long professional pilot big bucks when a 22 year old can do the same for a fraction the cost? The 22 year old probably doesn't have a family to support, a house, a 401K, etc. They just want to "fly".
 
I have worked EMS and flown as a 737 Capt.

While EMT's and Paramedics deserve to be paid more than they are, there is no correlation with an airline pilot's job/pay. We deserve every freaking penny we get, and more.

My brother-in-law is in corporate sales. $200K is a lame year for him, and he's home almost every night and works from home about half the week. The world has changed, and if you think pilots are overpaid, you need to get out in the real world, and see what other people are making.
 
Wages are set by supply and demand, not who "deserves" what.
 
It seems like people are making big bucks for doing far less than we do. Can anyone say real estate? How hard could that be.

One other thing. I think you could compare a pilots life at the regionals to what a Dr. goes through on his residencey. Long hours, and low pay. BUT WHEN HE GET OUT, he makes his 300K because of all of the sacrifice he made to get there. How are pilots any different.

Somone said earlier that there are more pilots than doctors.....I would like to see the #'s on that. Im thinking thats gonna be false. Also look at lawyers, I know there are more lawyers than pilots.
 
Nice

Very Nice.

Just saw the footage on CNN. They made it look easy which I am sure it wasn't. I noticed how the nose gear came down on the centerline and stayed there as the plane decelarated.

Impressive. And think about this: these guys knew that the cameras would be there to document it all. Then they went and did a great job.


Regards,

dane
 
Ace757 said:
Somone said earlier that there are more pilots than doctors.....I would like to see the #'s on that. Im thinking thats gonna be false. Also look at lawyers, I know there are more lawyers than pilots.

I kind of doubt that. The last time I looked there were less than 300,000 certificated pilots in the US. That number included all pilots, private through ATP. Figure probably less than 100,000 ATP's in that group, and that number also includes those with expired medicals and those not current. But, there probably are more pilots than Dr's who are willing to work for nothing due to SJS.

Oh, BTW, GREAT JOB JB!!!
 
Comparisons to Doctors? Yeah, they make more than us but at least we don't have to buy "Mal-Flight Insurance".;)


And speaking of lawyers, has there been a law suit filed yet? The news I saw yesterday said some pax may have Post Tramatic Stress Syndrome.

Gret job, JB!
 
GOOD JOB !!!! Kudos to the JB Fellas....
 
Sticky said:
That is the bottom line. Why pay a life long professional pilot big bucks when a 22 year old can do the same for a fraction the cost?

Read PCL 3701 then read the account of this emergency. There's your difference between young, inexperienced "any 22 year old" vs. experienced professional airmen.

PERIOD.
 
Ace757 said:
Well done JetBlue. Very nice landing. This proves why airline pilots deserve to make what they use to. What other job do you go to and all of a sudden have the lives of 149 people in your hands.

Other jobs with with 149+ lives in your hands:

Air Traffic Controller
Firefighters (specifically at a high rise fire)
Police Officers (specifically if 149 hostages are involved)
Cruise Ship Captain
The guy whose job it is to tell you where the Hurricane wil strike
The guy who bakes the Krispy Kreme doughnuts
Aircraft Mechanic
The guy in charge of making sure the lion at the zoo cannot escape
 
Ty Webb said:
I have worked EMS and flown as a 737 Capt.

While EMT's and Paramedics deserve to be paid more than they are, there is no correlation with an airline pilot's job/pay. We deserve every freaking penny we get, and more.

Is that why you boys at AirTran are one of the original culprits in lowering the bar for salaries in the airline industry?
 
Other jobs with with 149+ lives in your hands:

Air Traffic Controller
Firefighters (specifically at a high rise fire)
Police Officers (specifically if 149 hostages are involved)
Cruise Ship Captain
The guy whose job it is to tell you where the Hurricane wil strike
The guy who bakes the Krispy Kreme doughnuts
Aircraft Mechanic
The guy in charge of making sure the lion at the zoo cannot escape

__________________
Living the Willow Run Dream!!
Add Aircraft mechanic to the list to make 200k a year
 
Pay

Agreed! Pilots earn every dime when the stuff hits the fan.

Yet another reason to oppose pilot-less aircraft.
 
VABB said:
Is that why you boys at AirTran are one of the original culprits in lowering the bar for salaries in the airline industry?

Vabb, you are right. AirTran has single handily changed the entire aviation industry. We are the leaders, we set all pricing and wages. We are poised to take over the world. I can walk your resume in for you if you want, I would hate to see someone with your keen insight and intelligence slip away.
 
VABB said:
Is that why you boys at AirTran are one of the original culprits in lowering the bar for salaries in the airline industry?

Your ignorance is without equal. Congratulations, VABB.
If half of you guys wanting more money just left the industry to pursue corporate sales or commercial real estate, things might be a bit nicer for the rest of us. Plain and simple: too many pilots, too few jobs. Don't look at AirTran as the culprit, look at your friend and neighbor who bought his job.
Noone is disagreeing that we should be paid more, but bitching about it ain't gonna make it happen. The world we live in now will not support our pay demands. Perhaps there are jobs overseas and in Asia which you can still earn some bucks at. Good luck.
 
Is that why you boys at AirTran are one of the original culprits in lowering the bar for salaries in the airline industry?


Funny, that's what Fedex, ABX and UPS guys say about you. . . .

At least while we're "lowering the bar" we're not on a 20 minute call-out and crapping into a plastic bag.

What's that? Your pager's gong off? Chihauhau, Mexico? Have fun. Better pack a big bag, they don't have anything coming back for a few days.
 
Other jobs with with 149+ lives in your hands:

Air Traffic Controller-Make more than pilots
Firefighters (specifically at a high rise fire)Govt. Job, good bennies though. Make more than regional pilots
Police Officers (specifically if 149 hostages are involved)Come On! that happens every day
Cruise Ship Captain- Make more than pilots
The guy whose job it is to tell you where the Hurricane wil strike-I bet he makes more too, but he is not directly involved with the 150 people.
The guy who bakes the Krispy Kreme doughnuts- What the F is this
Aircraft Mechanic-Small point made here. They should make more
The guy in charge of making sure the lion at the zoo cannot escape-Again...what the F, lets pick things that actuall happens daily ok.
 
Yank McCobb said:
Read PCL 3701 then read the account of this emergency. There's your difference between young, inexperienced "any 22 year old" vs. experienced professional airmen.

PERIOD.

I agree that the language used during the flight is characteristic of young attitudes. However, plenty of very experienced and older pilots have crash airplanes for silly reasons before too. Negligence can bite us all.
 
No, No, Nooo

You guys got it all wrong. Pilots should not be paid any more and, well if you follow my fuzzy logic should get paid even less...here's why.

In the ol' days, Pilots faced with this problem would get out the books and figger out how to fix the problem. If it were an ol DC8, the FE'd be down there in the hole pullin breakers and runnin jumper wires to get that baby turned around and fixed, all the while computing the best %MAC, speeds and tire friction to make the outcome so that the airplane didnt get broke.

NO! These guys broke the airplane, then broke it more when the ground it down to a nub, so THEY SHOULD MAKE LESS. Actually they should have to pay for the damage. Makes sense to me after drinkin two cups of bad java...water here is kinda skunky.

Pilots these days are button pushers. You'd think they'd put more info in them damn laptops to help them fix a problem like this. Its all electrons chasin each other around up there, these kids bein' computer geeks should be able to fix the damn problem. Aint like it used to be.

Oh, ok. Those kids did a fabulous job landin that french piece of tin. Dangit, woulda been better if in the flare the thing spun around to center and ....miracle of miracles. Aint that how it would be in the movies? Heroes all.

They earned their blue chips anyways. Too bad they walked outside and started wavin their hands like a couple of beauty queens at homecoming to the choppers overhead. Shoulda walked out and lit up a smoke, spit on the ground and wipe the sweat offin their heads.

Where's the charisma these days?

Tex.
 
Ace757 said:
Other jobs with with 149+ lives in your hands:

Air Traffic Controller-Make more than pilots
Firefighters (specifically at a high rise fire)Govt. Job, good bennies though. Make more than regional pilots
Police Officers (specifically if 149 hostages are involved)Come On! that happens every day
Cruise Ship Captain- Make more than pilots
The guy whose job it is to tell you where the Hurricane wil strike-I bet he makes more too, but he is not directly involved with the 150 people.
The guy who bakes the Krispy Kreme doughnuts- What the F is this
Aircraft Mechanic-Small point made here. They should make more
The guy in charge of making sure the lion at the zoo cannot escape-Again...what the F, lets pick things that actuall happens daily ok.

After all the examples why we should make more, in the end, why don't we? When we figure out why we don't, maybe it will lead us to why we shouldn't?
 
Floyd R. Turbo said:
So True. Clint Eastwood said it best: "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it."
Really. You don't see people asking for across the board pay cuts when an airline flight crew tracks a vor into a mountain.
 
You know hookers make more than most pilots... The reason being a good hooker is hard to come by and that a pilot is more likely to need a hooker than a hooker is to need a pilot.

I for one do everything in my power to help out wages. I tell everyone I know that I make zero dollars and that the job is absolute garbage.

Hopefully over time if we all pull together we can stop the influx of pilots into the industry which should solve the wage issue. DAL is helping by anouncing there recent pilot cuts.
 
Ty Webb said:
Funny, that's what Fedex, ABX and UPS guys say about you. . . .

At least while we're "lowering the bar" we're not on a 20 minute call-out and crapping into a plastic bag.

What's that? Your pager's gong off? Chihauhau, Mexico? Have fun. Better pack a big bag, they don't have anything coming back for a few days.

Oh no, not the pager comeback again!!

Ty, do really believe everything you read on an internet message board??

How is your negotiations going? Are you anticipating your concessions to be large or small?
 

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