The Fat lady just sang!!

[Turtle21]

USAPA is nothing more than a fart in the wind. It stinks for a little bit, but eventually it goes away.

The Nicolau Seniority List Was Issued on May 3, 2007 that was
2444 Days 21 Hours 53 Minutes 46 Seconds Ago....

Tic, toc, tic, toc...

 

[abefly]

Yes it is a very good read - the judge slammed both sides but in the end decided that no law was broken and even implied that when the SLI goes to MaCaskill Bond that there will be only one certified agent - APA which will have to represent all pilots fairly

Very interesting determination

Metrojet

Best post you have ever made metro. Logical and without emotion.

The big question is what will APA and the company do once USAPA is gone.

The DFR liability is still there. It will be APA's to inherit. The judge by no means said USAPA can use DOH, and she also said it does not have to be the NIC.

What will the arbitrators decide this time? With No seat at the table for the East or the West this will be very interesting.

 

[Turtle21]

Best post you have ever made metro. Logical and without emotion.

The big question is what will APA and the company do once USAPA is gone.

The DFR liability is still there. It will be APA's to inherit. The judge by no means said USAPA can use DOH, and she also said it does not have to be the NIC.

What will the arbitrators decide this time? With No seat at the table for the East or the West this will be very interesting.

Silver did not order that APA will be the only participant in the MB SLI.

 

[71driver]

Not a legal punt at all

Just sets the SLI process for a 3 way list integration starting with DOH and your seat / equip and career expectations from snapshot date. And if your under age 52 or so - you'll have greater career in the combined - if your over age 52 or so - you won't be harmed nor will you gain much at the expense of others. How can that not be fair?

Metrojet

I believe in laymens terms it means that there is only 1 recognizable list....the one from Judge Nicolau. While the East disagreed with it.....IT is the list that will be used for the SLI between American and US Airways. There is no other list WITH the 2 Pilot groups on it. There won't be 3 lists as you say.
I believe the EAST can once again state their case for date of hire, but the rub there is that would be a breach of DFR to the West.
At the end of the day I believe the APA will address the list as it stands, and merge the lists accordingly.

 

[Dan Roman]

Yes it is a very good read - the judge slammed both sides but in the end decided that no law was broken and even implied that when the SLI goes to MaCaskill Bond that there will be only one certified agent - APA which will have to represent all pilots fairly

Very interesting determination

Metrojet

All I gather from reading this string is that the the Judge in the NEXT binding arbitration award is free to do whatever they think is fair? It doesn't seem like a win for either side?
The USAPA cheerleaders have a long record of overstating their position, have to wonder if that is still the case?
One thing for sure, the baggage USAPA brings to the table will hurt them and certainly even more so when the next Judge takes into account how they handled the last binding arbitration. That judge will have to factor in that one party agreed to binding arbitration and then reneged on the agreement. Obviously that has to be considered when the next ruling is made.

 

[abefly]

Silver did not order that APA will be the only participant in the MB SLI.

Did you read the ruling? from page 20-21. See the bold. Once APA takes over USAPA has no right to the SLI.

"The Court?s patience with USAPA has run out. USAPA avoided

liability on the DFR claim by the slimmest of margins and the Court has serious doubts that USAPA will fairly and adequately represent​

all of its members while it remains a certified representative. But all the Court can do at this stage is implore USAPA to, in the words of​

CAB, ?make every effort to see that [the West Pilots?] are given extensive consideration, and that their interests are fairly and fully represented? during seniority integration.​

​

National Airlines, Acquisition, 84 C.A.B. 408, 477 (1979). And when USAPA is no longer the certified representative, it must immediately stop participating in the seniority integration​

 

[Continental]

Shouldn't it be the fat lady has "sung"?

 

[Turtle21]

Did you read the ruling? from page 20-21. See the bold. Once APA takes over USAPA has no right to the SLI.

"The Court?s patience with USAPA has run out. USAPA avoided

liability on the DFR claim by the slimmest of margins and the Court has serious doubts that USAPA will fairly and adequately represent​

all of its members while it remains a certified representative. But all the Court can do at this stage is implore USAPA to, in the words of​

CAB, ?make every effort to see that [the West Pilots?] are given extensive consideration, and that their interests are fairly and fully represented? during seniority integration.​

​

National Airlines, Acquisition, 84 C.A.B. 408, 477 (1979). And when USAPA is no longer the certified representative, it must immediately stop participating in the seniority integration​

Dicta.

 

[Flyer1015]

So what list will USAPA send for SLI purposes with the new AA? It will most likely go to arbitration and APA will send their seniority list. What will USAPA send? Two separate lists, one east and one west?

 

[Turtle21]

So what list will USAPA send for SLI purposes with the new AA? It will most likely go to arbitration and APA will send their seniority list. What will USAPA send? Two separate lists, one east and one west?

There is no necessity for it to go to arbitration, but assuming it does, the APA and USAPA will present their arguments in favor of their own proposed complete list for all New American pilots. The arbitrator will consider each new proposed list and the proposed methods to arrive at each new proposed list. Current lists in effect will be a factor in the status quo. UAL/CAL may be helpful for a rationale proposal/final award.

 

[Carl S.]

Will USAPA learn from Silver's warnings to represent all pilots or stay on their DOH jihad and see the final product to be very NIC. like at the least or it's DFR time all over with no ripeness or waiting for lists to be produced? How is this a victory for USAPA in the SLI game, we are not going away and AAL and APA have the next move? The MOU barely pasted the DFR bar, not a DOH list...

P.S.- Turtle, the money will always be coming in as long as USAPA is the bully, will Eastie give cash when it is their turn to defend themselves? I am proud that we are unified and still fighting, unlike you fractioned East side back stabbing each other. How many lost in the CLT Ponzi scam?

 

[Turtle21]

Will USAPA learn from Silver's warnings to represent all pilots or stay on their DOH jihad and see the final product to be very NIC. like at the least or it's DFR time all over with no ripeness or waiting for lists to be produced? How is this a victory for USAPA in the SLI game, we are not going away and AAL and APA have the next move? The MOU barely pasted the DFR bar, not a DOH list...

P.S.- Turtle, the money will always be coming in as long as USAPA is the bully, will Eastie give cash when it is their turn to defend themselves? I am proud that we are unified and still fighting, unlike you fractioned East side back stabbing each other. How many lost in the CLT Ponzi scam?

Spend your money how you want! Really!!

Did Marty send you a copy of the document that affirms the Nic Award must be used by anyone?

 

[Flyer1015]

There is no necessity for it to go to arbitration, but assuming it does, the APA and USAPA will present their arguments in favor of their own proposed complete list for all New American pilots. The arbitrator will consider each new proposed list and the proposed methods to arrive at each new proposed list. Current lists in effect will be a factor in the status quo. UAL/CAL may be helpful for a rationale proposal/final award.

Currently, can you confirm USAPA has two separate lists, one west and one east. Correct? Never in recent history has their been an amicable agreement on SLI (except AirTran/SWA but that's not a happy story). UAL/CAL, DAL/NWA, and US/AWA all went to arbitration. Why would AA/US be any different?

 

[71driver]

these US Airways East guys and there nauseating talk about date of hire is exhausting and hard to support...hence the judges comments As directed towards USAPA. The merger with America West was never designed to make up for stagnated careers. now these idiots are going to try the same Hail Mary pass with the merger with American Airlines.
date of hire is not how you merge fellas...of course you know this though
As a stand alone airline name one thing you get that is based on date of hire. upgrading to Captain weekends off holiday vacations......everything is based on relative seniority within your company. why you guys think a merger should change that is beyond me and why you receive such little support throughout the industry.

 

[Turtle21]

Currently, can you confirm USAPA has two separate lists, one west and one east. Correct? Never in recent history has their been an amicable agreement on SLI (except AirTran/SWA but that's not a happy story). UAL/CAL, DAL/NWA, and US/AWA all went to arbitration. Why would AA/US be any different?

I suggest it should not be any different. It should be a UAL/CAL type list, the easy way or the hard way. We'll see. Relative position looks really good for a lot of folks.