The End of USAPA is finally upon us

[gutshotdraw]

agreed, and i'll say again that a pilot's worth has nothing to do with the financial condition of his airline.

But for some reason you keep ignoring the usair pilots' career expectations in 2005: Over a third of their list already furloughed with more coming. Awa in 2005 was hiring and had scheduled growth airplane deliveries. Add to that the usair bk-decimated contract and that's why george nicolau stated: "this necessarily means that career expectations differed and that us airways pilots had more to gain from the merger than their new colleagues."
first of all, nicolau made the decision so the accusatory "taking advantage" just belies your bias against the awa pilots. Second, it's laughable to infer usair's troubles in 2005 were "temporary". Suffice it to say nobody except liars and the severely deluded think usair would've lasted even another month without a merger.

Mind you, none of this was the pilots' fault and i don't use the word "deserve". But read the nicolau award again. For the usair pilots to regain what they lost can only come at the expense of the awa pilots. Truly neutral observers (iow, not people like you) can plainly see the unfairness of that. So you can believe doh is the only fair way to integrate but the people who actually get to make that decision are more interested in fairness than you are.

Word.

From another neutral outsider.

 

[PuffDriver]

Agreed, and I'll say again that a pilot's worth has nothing to do with the financial condition of his airline.

But for some reason you keep ignoring the USAir pilots' career expectations in 2005: over a third of their list already furloughed with more coming.

Career expectations are subjective. That is basically my problem with the merger process formerly known as ALPA's. It pits one group against another--severely. USAir was done furloughing. They had a "subsidiary" set up. You ignore the fact that during the SLI hearings, USAir was actively recalling. By the time the list actually was emailed out from Niccolau, every pilot was back at USAir who wanted to be.

Bottom line, if you are going to pick 1 day (known as a PID) to define a pilot's career expectations, you will wildly miss the mark every time. At the same time, them's the rules. So my retort is that on that one day, USAir was a viable company, and every pilot on their list had the opportunity to engage in widebody, global flying. Their twiceBK contract darn near equaled America Wests non-bk contract in terms of strict compensation. I don't know enough about the intangibles to say with fairness the actual value of the two contracts. BK is temporary. Delta did it, and look at them now. UAL did it and look at them now. CAL did it and look at them now. Suffice to say, any speculation on the pending demise of USAir is just that, speculation and IMO has no place in the mediation of an airline pilot seniority list. Career expectations are a farce. They are determined by history, on the day each pilot retires. If you want to look at the history of the two airlines, they speak for themselves

AWA in 2005 was hiring and had scheduled growth airplane deliveries. Add to that the USAir BK-decimated contract and that's why George Nicolau stated: "This necessarily means that career expectations differed and that US Airways pilots had more to gain from the merger than their new colleagues."

I have been saying that Niccolau blew it. Any quote from the ruling, I've read. I don't agree with it, nor the logic behind it. It is the equivalent of merging Delta with Allegiant when Delta was in BK, and now Delta is posting 800 million a quarter profit. Give me a break. USAir management, like all of the other well paying airline managements, used the BK process after 911 to attempt to permanently reset the wages which has been attained during the good times. They all have furloughs, and have all been "days" away from closing their doors.

So you can believe DOH is the only fair way to integrate but the people who actually get to make that decision are more interested in fairness than you are.

I have no doubt that the guy was interested in fairness. At the same time, he blew it. Think of all the seniority mergers which have occurred under the RLA act. Now consider that this one wasn't consummated and name me another. You are telling me that this is because the USAir guys are just bigger a**holes than EVERY other pilot group on the south end of a SLI? Or could it be that the NIC was just that egregious of an award. Enev better is to look at the actions of ALPA, and the people in control of ALPA since this SLI to change ALPA merger policy. It's all there for those to see, who can truly look with the objective eye

I am not married to DOH, just show me another way that is objective. Even more importantly, integrate the lists any way you want, but protect flying of each former group. This is perhaps an even greater travesty of the NIC. While you all applaud the AWA pilots and castigate the USAir pilots, you are punishing and rewarding the children while ignoring the underlying problem--like most failed parents.

As I said, you are not going to change my mind, and I no doubt will not change yours. If you are indeed former TWA, I find it distasteful that you seem to have forgotten what it was like when the AA pilots swooped in to feed on a carcass. Now you want to do the same? Payback I guess? You have now hitched you horse to the AWA wagon and need that success on the backs of the USAir pilots?

 

[TWA Dude]

Career expectations are subjective.

Furloughing vs hiring. Airframe deliveries vs selling. Wages and workrule comparisons.
These are objective facts and these are what Nicolau looked at.

You ignore the fact that during the SLI hearings, USAir was actively recalling.

Are you deliberately trying to be funny? USAir was recalling only because the merger kept them in business. Events taking place ex post facto are not relevant to the SLI.

I have been saying that Niccolau blew it.

So you've said. You're entitled to your opinion but unlike me you refuse to admit your bias. Why is that?

You are telling me that this is because the USAir guys are just bigger a**holes than EVERY other pilot group on the south end of a SLI?

Prior to the merger I had a favorable opinion of the USAir pilots. Their actions since have made them deserving of scorn.

I am not married to DOH, just show me another way that is objective.

Every merger is different therefore no one SLI method can be fair.

If you are indeed former TWA, I find it distasteful that you seem to have forgotten what it was like when the AA pilots swooped in to feed on a carcass.

You have no standing to lecture me! Unlike USAirways, the TWA pilots were denied a chance at a fair integration with AA. The AWA and USAir pilots negotiated as equals and both sides agreed to let the arbitrator decide. That's as fair as it gets. Honorable people with integrity abide by their commitments. The East pilots and their apologists like you make us all look bad.

 

[PuffDriver]

Furloughing vs hiring. Airframe deliveries vs selling. Wages and workrule comparisons. These are objective facts and these are what Nicolau looked at.

Oh cool, now let's look at the revenue picture today and see where the money is made at USAir. There is nothing objective about a company trying to extract massive concessions out of a pilot group during a BK, and then doing it again after not getting enough the first time. America West pilots can't understand that because their compensation has always been at those levels.

Are you deliberately trying to be funny? USAir was recalling only because the merger kept them in business. Events taking place ex post facto are not relevant to the SLI.

USAirways was recalling because they needed pilots to keep the operation going. Do you recall where the money came from in order to fund the merger. Hint: it was the USAir side of the house.

So you've said. You're entitled to your opinion but unlike me you refuse to admit your bias. Why is that?

Bias? Because the mediator blew the SLI? You have to look no further than UAL, DAL, or CAL to se where USAir would be today as a stand alone, or at least a similar circumstance. I know that this simple factoid interferes with the West windfall, but makes the point germane. the revenue is from the East operation. West pilots fly east to generate revenue. SWA has a stronghold in PHX, which would have eventually led to the demise of AWA. Wow, prognostication can be fun!!

Prior to the merger I had a favorable opinion of the USAir pilots. Their actions since have made them deserving of scorn.Every merger is different therefore no one SLI method can be fair. You have no standing to lecture me! Unlike USAirways, the TWA pilots were denied a chance at a fair integration with AA. The AWA and USAir pilots negotiated as equals and both sides agreed to let the arbitrator decide. That's as fair as it gets. Honorable people with integrity abide by their commitments. The East pilots and their apologists like you make us all look bad.

The pilot groups certainly did not negotiate as equals. USAir was punished for being in chapter 11, which has nothing to do with seniority issues.

As I have said, find me an objective method and I will be your largest fan. the older the DOH, the older the pilot, generally speaking. The newer the DOH, the younger the pilot, generally speaking. The methodology is unbiased, it is cut and dry. Throw in meaningful fences--which will be subjective, and you can make an SLI award as fair as it can be.

I am sure that you opinion of the USAir pilots keeps them awake at night. Many share that opinion of the TWA pilots, who ironically sued a company you by your own logic saved their jobs. Laughable, but not surprising. Once a suer, always a suer.

...and yes, I have standing as a former TWA pilot, to lecture.

Carry on, crybaby.

 

[vetrider]

Puffdriver, I bet any unbiased observer would look at you posts and TWA Dude's and conclude it's you that's the cry baby. Just a hunch.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puffdriver, I bet any unbiased observer would look at you posts and TWA Dude's and conclude it's you that's the cry baby. Just a hunch.

They might; but, then again, find me an unbiased observer. In the meantime, I'll stick with reality that the historically better airline, historically better compensated pilots, historically senior, and older pilots were victims of a biased mediator while a historically second rate, younger, less senior, historically bankruptcy compensated gained access to global widebody flying almost immediately at the expense of the former.

That was prohibited by ALPA merger policy. And people want to cite the fact that one airline was running through a rough patch, like many survivors before and since, in a merger cooked up by the drunk CEO--who's airline was 1/3 owned by the government, and who's financial salvation was cooked up by the bankrupt airline as justification?

Even better, some guy comes in with the "nanna, nanna boo boo" argument.

My interest lies elsewhere, so your "hunch" is a bit off. Fair enough, though, i'll go away and let the "sue happy" West pilots, formerly known as "sue happy" TWA pilots reign. Remember though, it was these guys who led the charge for the change in age 60, and are doubtlessly leading the charge for even higher, while enjoying a lottery ticket to the bigs and suing for even more. Yeah, real underdogs there.

 

[TWA Dude]

USAirways was recalling because they needed pilots to keep the operation going. Do you recall where the money came from in order to fund the merger. Hint: it was the USAir side of the house.

I can see now the only person you're trying to convince is yourself. Good luck with that.

...and yes, I have standing as a former TWA pilot, to lecture.

I'm so sorry you were terminated from TWA. Don'tcha think it's time to get over the sour grapes?

 

[Carl S.]

Puff, go to group at the VA or watch some Dr.Phil and stop hating the world...

P.S.- calling AAA going thru a rough patch is like saying the Titanic took on some water...

 

[gutshotdraw]

"Historically second rate"???

As a paying passenger a decade ago I would have DAMN sure rather ridden on ANY AWA plane before riding on a USAir POS. And I have friends on the East side.

As a paying passenger now, commuting to work, I literally BEG our travel department to NOT put me on LCC. Ever. The East ruined a pretty decent airline out west and I curse Parker for doing it and not letting the East die as it surely would have.

Puff, your last post indicates quite clearly that you have been PUFFING more than you've been driving.

Frankly, you're either delusional or overdue for a pee test.

 

[Turtle21]

All of this attempt to persuade one way or the other because.... Democracy.

 

[becket]

USAPA and their scumbag cheerleaders can rot in hell for all I care. Anybody spewing their BS, crying about "fairness" can go cry to mommy. It will be my pleasure for the rest of my career when one of my formerly East AFO's complains to be about the nic, I will look to my right and squarely...with a smile...tell him or her to go FK themselves.

My version of effective East-centric CRM

Maybe I'll bid CLT Capt just to enjoy the moment that many more times. HA!

 

[PuffDriver]

"Historically second rate"???

As a paying passenger a decade ago I would have DAMN sure rather ridden on ANY AWA plane before riding on a USAir POS. And I have friends on the East side.

As a paying passenger now, commuting to work, I literally BEG our travel department to NOT put me on LCC. Ever. The East ruined a pretty decent airline out west and I curse Parker for doing it and not letting the East die as it surely would have.

Puff, your last post indicates quite clearly that you have been PUFFING more than you've been driving.

Frankly, you're either delusional or overdue for a pee test.

Whether the east is/was/will be a great airline is completely irrelevant. It is where the money is, which is why Doug Parker wanted it, and east management got a deal financed. FWIW, I agree that USairways is a substandard airline, and it just goes to show that when you treat your employees like crap, you will get the same from them. Nonetheless, it has nothing to do with pilots and is irrelevant. Second tier and crap desert airline referred to the compensation package attained at AWA. They have never had any kind of decent compensation/retirement.

There is a mistake here that there is anger on my part. There isn't. It is a board to discuss ideas. I submit that if USAIR gets the short end of the stick with American, these same guys would want USAPA to fight tooth and nail for their seniority. If they say they wouldn't, they are lying.

Gotta go to work. Good luck y'all.

 

[PuffDriver]

I can see now the only person you're trying to convince is yourself. Good luck with that.I'm so sorry you were terminated from TWA. Don'tcha think it's time to get over the sour grapes?

I guess when you run out of retorts, you resort to red herrings. No matter, your retorts weren't worth the screen they were typed on. Sorry to disappoint, but saw the writing in the wall with TWA and got out early.

Good try though. I gotta go to work. Good luck with your lawsuits. I agree that ALPA failed in representation. They also failed the USAIR pilots. Interesting, huh?

 

[reepicheep]

Whether the east is/was/will be a great airline is completely irrelevant. It is where the money is, which is why Doug Parker wanted it, and east management got a deal financed.

Agreed.....mergers are primarily about a handful of individuals/financial institutions who see an opportunity to make money in a deal. Fleets, hubs, employees, "building a great airline", etc.....fodder for speeches to unions, congress and civic groups & little else. We deal with the fallout long after they take their money & move on to the next deal.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Puff, go to group at the VA or watch some Dr.Phil and stop hating the world...

P.S.- calling AAA going thru a rough patch is like saying the Titanic took on some water...

Hahahah!

AAA was a ship running aground for 20+ years looking for water.

 

[Monster Buck]

Is it fair that pilot promotions and pay raises are not based on distinctions of skill? Isn't skill a fair way?

I throw out the "skill" question as a red herring. Fact is distinctions of skill don't matter much in this industry (what difference does it make if one pilot gets a 95% on their ATP written and another gets 100%?)

We can't compete to win a better piloting job by promising to fly better than the next guy... So the only way to compete against other pilots is to fly the same for less money...

The whole idea of a union is to prevent pilots from competing/undercutting each other.

DOH is the objective mechanism to keep all pilots unified so that management can't divide them to cut each others throat to fly for less. DOH prevents cannibalistic competition among pilots, but human nature craves a free steak. So yeah DOH is vital to the industry but their are plenty of people that can't resist trying to get something at his neighbor's detriment.

Wrong, doh is a part but no way fair as a sole source. It equates the merging airlines. Completely ignorant. So if Delta merged with a smaller company like Alaska, they get doh and the senior alaska pilots get to instantly be 747 or 777 captains? Or what twenty year fences? Or thier senior fo's get to now take wide body captain jobs that they never had a chance to before Delta pilots with DOH later than them? This is just examples but could apply anywhere. A mixture of DOH, airline size, a/c and career expectations of both airlines need to be considered.

 

[johnnyb]

USAPA and their scumbag cheerleaders can rot in hell for all I care. Anybody spewing their BS, crying about "fairness" can go cry to mommy. It will be my pleasure for the rest of my career when one of my formerly East AFO's complains to be about the nic, I will look to my right and squarely...with a smile...tell him or her to go FK themselves.

My version of effective East-centric CRM

Maybe I'll bid CLT Capt just to enjoy the moment that many more times. HA!

I'm sure the #2 engine will be quite intimidated.

 

[doh]

"Historically second rate"???

As a paying passenger a decade ago I would have DAMN sure rather ridden on ANY AWA plane before riding on a USAir POS. And I have friends on the East side.

As a paying passenger now, commuting to work, I literally BEG our travel department to NOT put me on LCC. Ever. The East ruined a pretty decent airline out west and I curse Parker for doing it and not letting the East die as it surely would have...

Amen!! Getting stuck on LCC is a train wreck.

 

[Turtle21]

Wrong, doh is a part but no way fair as a sole source. It equates the merging airlines. Completely ignorant. So if Delta merged with a smaller company like Alaska, they get doh and the senior alaska pilots get to instantly be 747 or 777 captains? Or what twenty year fences? Or thier senior fo's get to now take wide body captain jobs that they never had a chance to before Delta pilots with DOH later than them? This is just examples but could apply anywhere. A mixture of DOH, airline size, a/c and career expectations of both airlines need to be considered.

DOH is objective. Subjective criteria for pilot compensation lends itself to pilot disunity and provides management with a wedge to exploit.

Arguing about the criteria is pointless. The real issue is whether pilots should unify around objective criteria for their compensation or whether they should instead splinter around subjective criteria in hopes of a windfall at their neighbor's expense.

But frankly, underpinning all this is the reality that pilot nature on the most part is such that they will all secretly look out for their own interests to the exclusion of the profession, and whatever definition of pilot seniority best fits at the time will be their mantra.

P.S. I didn't mention anything about mergers.

 

[General Lee]

Frankly Turtle, underpinning all this is that certain groups have no integrity, and signing a document and agreeing to one thing means.....NOTHING. Zero integrity. You must always check both hands when giving a handshake to an Eastie, the other hand might have "fingers crossed."



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[TWA Dude]

DOH is objective.

You say that as if it's a good thing. Instead of having a judicial system we could just presume all who are charged are guilty and avoid the subjectivity of judges and juries. Of course we don't do it that way because we strive for fairness. DOH may or may not be fair depending on the specific vagaries of each merger.

You're silly points about pilot unity are irreverent rationalizations. All that's needed for pilot unity during SLI's is the integrity to abide by the final result.

 

[Turtle21]

You say that as if it's a good thing. Instead of having a judicial system we could just presume all who are charged are guilty and avoid the subjectivity of judges and juries. Of course we don't do it that way because we strive for fairness. DOH may or may not be fair depending on the specific vagaries of each merger.

You're silly points about pilot unity are irreverent rationalizations. All that's needed for pilot unity during SLI's is the integrity to abide by the final result.

See, you want subjectivity so you can fight about SLI, and maybe win something. I get it. I get it. You don't. Pilots will always fight because they can. Union "leaders" will always proclaim integrity, unity, and more relativistic BS so the members can feel righteous and send them more money to fight the righteous cause. Whatever. Just accept the fact that there will always be fighting if it is feasible to do so. Carry on.

P.S. TWA stopped being a real airline decades ago and anyone who was silly enough to go there or stay there should never be allowed to upgrade to captain, and maybe not even have weekends off as a reserve FO. Geez how stupid can someone be. They deserve huge penalties in any SLI. See, its all justified! But you can spend more money on lawyers to fight back.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Turtle is showing the traits of a a true east "IGM" by pontificating about high minded fairness and unity from his recently upgraded perch on the left. Prior to that it was "USAPA-the best money I've ever spent". I'm sure he'll be popular with the fellow east pilots (stuck as F/O's in a post-Nic world) who made the same sacrifice in pay and benefits to feed the USAPA juggernaut, but never saw it pay off for them.

Yeah, yeah Capt. Popularity will buy them a Starbucks every so often just to prove how generous he is and still looking out for them, sorta.

 

[Turtle21]

Turtle is showing the traits of a a true east "IGM" by pontificating about high minded fairness and unity from his recently upgraded perch on the left. Prior to that it was "USAPA-the best money I've ever spent". I'm sure he'll be popular with the fellow east pilots (stuck as F/O's in a post-Nic world) who made the same sacrifice in pay and benefits to feed the USAPA juggernaut, but never saw it pay off for them.

Yeah, yeah Capt. Popularity will buy them a Starbucks every so often just to prove how generous he is and still looking out for them, sorta.

I'm touched that you judge me popular!

Subjective criteria breads disunity, provides a mechanism for some pilots to be more equal than others, and gives rise to bloated union personnel to craft a semblance of unity.

Pay based on years of experience rather than seat and equipment would do a lot to improve unity, but that won't happen because there is still a need to continue pulling up the ladder.

Cheers

 

[Dornier 335]

Frankly Turtle, underpinning all this is that certain groups have no integrity, and signing a document and agreeing to one thing means.....NOTHING. Zero integrity. You must always check both hands when giving a handshake to an Eastie, the other hand might have "fingers crossed."



Bye Bye---General Lee

Tell us something about your pilot group and the WA and PA pilots, since you like to stick your nose in other people's business. Your credibility -> ZERO!

 

[JohnQ]

Tell us something about your pilot group and the WA and PA pilots, since you like to stick your nose in other people's business. Your credibility -> ZERO!

Your knowledge---less than zero.

Let's see. I know guys hired in the late 70s/early 80s at WAL who were furloughed by that "great" airline for six years. Then they got recalled just prior to the DAL merger in 1987, to get huge jumps in pay and quality of life. Some "screw job" there.

As for PAA, I'm not sure what your point is. I DO know that there were guys hired by PAA in 1968 who were furloughed for 17 years (!), only to be put behind the National guys who were hired a decade later (National and PAA merged in 1980). They finally got back to PAA in the mid-80s, those few who hadn't actually moved on with their life.

DAL could have (and perhaps should have) let PAA, an old airline, with old airplanes, old debt, and old employees--but great route structure--die and just take what they wanted, sort of like Eastern did with the Braniff SA routes, that then AA did to them a few years later! (how many Braniff guys went to EAL? Zero. How many of those EAL pilots made it to AA--zero!). Instead DAL took on a lot of employees, some old A310s (that we flew for less than a year) some old 727s, got rid of the airplanes, kept the employees and the debt, then furloughed "original" DAL guys off the bottom of the list, then let the over 60 pilots come back into the FE seat that the junior original DAL guys were furloughed from! What a "screw job."

DAL has been one of the few airlines ever that has treated acquired employees well and with dignity. Further, our merger with NWA was the greatest and smoothest merger in airline history. I'll take DAL's record over anyone else's.

 

[MCDU]

That is not what pilots at Western or Nwa think happened.

M

 

[JohnQ]

That is not what pilots at Western or Nwa think happened.

M

Every pilot in any merger thinks the universe was out to screw him personally.

I have yet to meet a NWA guy who is that unhappy with the DAL merger, especially given their "Green/Red" dysfunctional history.

I still contend that DAL has had better mergers than any other examples out there, both in the distant past and immediate present.

 

[CavePilot]

Every pilot in any merger thinks the universe was out to screw him personally.

I have yet to meet a NWA guy who is that unhappy with the DAL merger, especially given their "Green/Red" dysfunctional history.

I still contend that DAL has had better mergers than any other examples out there, both in the distant past and immediate present.

The reason it went well with respect to DAL's most recent merge has little to do with the DAL/NWA pilots integrity and sense of fairness and solidarity. It was simply because the two pilot groups had very similar DOH senority list. That's it.

Anytime you put two dissimilar DOH lists together, there will be problems.

You have the same bunch of "individuals" with these East/West "tendencies" at every merge, that just weren't exposed.

 

[JohnQ]

The reason it went well with respect to DAL's most recent merge has little to do with the DAL/NWA pilots integrity and sense of fairness and solidarity. It was simply because the two pilot groups had very similar DOH senority list. That's it.

At best you are only partially correct. We had similar dates of hire AND similar equipment and complementary route structures.

We also had--believe it or not--union leadership that was committed to making sure that the newer combined entity moved forward and emerged stronger than the two smaller ones before. You can't do that when one side refused to honor an agreed-upon process, thereby triggering lawsuits from the other.

Since every merger is its own unique entity, you can never say that any two mergers should be considered equally. DOH should only be one small consideration among many, for any merger, ever.