The End of USAPA is finally upon us

[abefly]

Ahhh. http://cactuspilot.com/ was not updated with this document when you posted it.

I was thinking this historical section was old and the first paragraph was manufactured.

http://cactuspilot.com is off it's A game!

Well, I'm very eager to see this issue resolved in the next couple years! :beer:

I agree I look forward to it getting resolved. It won't be a couple of years.
By Halloween there will be a system bid to correct the last 8 years worth of out of seniority upgrades.

 

[flygirlqt]

Predictable?


..just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it
remained the pilots? representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition
Agreement. But being ?bound? by the Transition Agreement has very little
meaning in the context of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition
Agreement can be modified at any time ?by written agreement of [USAPA] and
the [US Airways].? (Judge Silver)



Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an
entirely new collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious
impediment to USAPA and US Airways negotiating and agreeing upon
any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the Ninth Circuit,
?seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement,
and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.? (Judge Silver)




MR. HARPER: But indeed our position is neutral is
not good enough under these set of circumstances for where we
were. On September 7, 2013, the West Pilots had a
Transition Agreement that required the Nicolau to be dropped in
to any negotiated -- and that changed on the eighth.
THE COURT: So you are -- you wish to re-merge and
say that now the Nicolau Award, is it for your clients and
nothing else? That despite what I said, which is that
USAPA does not have to accept the Nicolau Award
as the only basis upon which to negotiate a fair seniority agreement -- now, that's what I said; correct?



MR. HARPER: Their duty -- the breach of the duty was
not to include the Nicolau in the MOU.
THE COURT: And is that as simple as it is?
MR. HARPER: Yes. I think that that is the breach of
the duty of fair representation. They had the duty to insist
on the Nicolau and they didn't. <<-------------- That was Wake's injunction

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. They
don't have a duty to insist on it?
MR. HARPER: As part of the negotiations, yes.
THE COURT: Well, you're saying they had to come to
the table. So what we're talking about is what I thought I
resolved which is it can be considered. It should be
considered. There has been a determination that it's fair but
that doesn't have to be the final decision on seniority.
Now, that's my ruling.

You are going to base your entire belief about her decisions from the bench from a few comments from transcripts? Do you not see what is about to happen here?

All of you need a serious come to jesus discussion with your lawyers.

 

[Ocity]

Predictable?


..just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it
remained the pilots? representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition
Agreement. But being ?bound? by the Transition Agreement has very little
meaning in the context of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition
Agreement can be modified at any time ?by written agreement of [USAPA] and
the [US Airways].? (Judge Silver)



Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an
entirely new collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious
impediment to USAPA and US Airways negotiating and agreeing upon
any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the Ninth Circuit,
?seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement,
and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.? (Judge Silver)




MR. HARPER: But indeed our position is neutral is
not good enough under these set of circumstances for where we
were. On September 7, 2013, the West Pilots had a
Transition Agreement that required the Nicolau to be dropped in
to any negotiated -- and that changed on the eighth.
THE COURT: So you are -- you wish to re-merge and
say that now the Nicolau Award, is it for your clients and
nothing else? That despite what I said, which is that
USAPA does not have to accept the Nicolau Award
as the only basis upon which to negotiate a fair seniority agreement -- now, that's what I said; correct?



MR. HARPER: Their duty -- the breach of the duty was
not to include the Nicolau in the MOU.
THE COURT: And is that as simple as it is?
MR. HARPER: Yes. I think that that is the breach of
the duty of fair representation. They had the duty to insist
on the Nicolau and they didn't. <<-------------- That was Wake's injunction

THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. They
don't have a duty to insist on it?
MR. HARPER: As part of the negotiations, yes.
THE COURT: Well, you're saying they had to come to
the table. So what we're talking about is what I thought I
resolved which is it can be considered. It should be
considered. There has been a determination that it's fair but
that doesn't have to be the final decision on seniority.
Now, that's my ruling.

i see you STILL have no idea what is happening. She gave USAPA every opportunity to find Jesus and do their job. USAPA just kept giving her the finger. Party's over for the Scumbag Fake Union.

 

[Carl S.]

Post the part from May when Usapa said their LUP was that the Nic. was not fair, my favorite defense...

 

[cactusboy53]

In March 2013, a group of West Pilots, on behalf of themselves and others similarly
situated, filed this suit recounting the above facts and alleging USAPA breached its duty of
fair representation ?by entering into the MOU with the firm intention of using a date-of-hire
seniority list rather than the Nicolau Award list.? (Doc. 1 at 13). This allegation is

98% yes vote out West now you sue?

JohhnyB;

USAPA has made it quite clear what LIST they refuse to submit to the merged pilot integration with APA. Doing so has firmly placed USAPA on DANGEROUS GROUND (Remember Judge Wake told USAPA this). I won't bother to quote Judge Silver further, as you folks only read into the court documents what parallels your DOH scheme.

The company & APA insist that our seniority be determined (it's already complete) before proceeding to the seniority between US Airways & AMR.

Sit tight. This shouldn't take long.

 

[PuffDriver]

I don't really care if Silver orders the Nic to be used. I want to see her order eye-wateringly high monetary damages to the west pilots who have been harmed through USAPA's actions. I think that will be enough motivation to dump DOH from the C&BL's and actually use the Nic list in negotiations with APA.

Just because Silver may order the Nic to be used as the opener doesn't mean you can trust USAPA to not attempt to add DOH side deals during negotiations. They cannot be trusted to do the right thing, thus the only verifiable justice will be in the form of cash.

Not surprising. The west pilots haven't been harmed by squat.

They are clinging to a biased arbitration award like grim death; the reason they are is that it is so lopsided with regard to fairness, that they have no choice but to sue or they lose their lottery ticket.

The award was so lopsided, that it actually was the straw which broke the camel's back and caused a divided east group to actually vote out ALPA

The award was so lopsided that ALPA changed its policy with regard to mergers and seniority lists; an "oops, we didn't know this might happen knee-jerk response"

The award was so lopsided, it has set groundbreaking standards for a seniority list not being implemented. It actually used suppositions with regard to its award logic, it gave the top 500+ spots to one side, it gave one side immediate access to widebody global flying, it gave a 4 month pilot immediate access to a captain seat. Awards since then have made dispensation for all.

Make no mistake, there are plenty of pilots watching from the outside who do NOT agree with the award at all. The only difference is that it did not happen to them, yet another reason for the advance of USAPA. While all pilots would like to point fingers at the USAir pilots, USAPA is a product of all of us. USAPA is about survival, something the America West pilots have NEVER undertaken. USAPA is a product of the lack of unity, and the lack of definitive action on the part of ALPA national.

FAR more damage has been done by SWAPA in the history of our airlines. Talk about a group that serves nobody but themselves!!! America West was along the same lines. These groups are the reason for the deterioration in the quality of the life of the airline pilot. USAir had been part of the gold standard. They did their part.

SWAPA, America West, Spirit, Virgin America, Allegiant, jetblue, regionals are all examples of failed policy at the national union level. Now, we work more for less. We have essentially lost a defined retirement. Medical benefits are lagging in a profession where health is paramount. Work rules have slid backwards. Retirement age has been raised in an industry which crosses multiple time zones, works 16 hour days, and continuously walks a fine line of safety.

While you condemn the USAir pilots to scabdom, at least have the balls to admit that you got a windfall at their expense. Otherwise, you wouldn't be spending so much money to preserve it, and thus continue the windfall at the AA pilot's expense. Funny how that excerpt is now removed from National's policy. Only a fool would believe that a crummy airline in the desert--who's routes have largely been abandoned and whom was 1/3 owned by the government :erm:--came in and saved the day by pulling an airline heavily based in the population center of america back from the brink. Laughable to say the least, especially when you see what the airline looks like today.

The award meets NO test of objective fairness, except to keep the two airlines' apart and fenced. Perhaps those pesky east pilots are rats, but look what happens when you corner one.

 

[abefly]

Not surprising. The west pilots haven't been harmed by squat.

They are clinging to a biased arbitration award like grim death; the reason they are is that it is so lopsided with regard to fairness, that they have no choice but to sue or they lose their lottery ticket.

The award was so lopsided, that it actually was the straw which broke the camel's back and caused a divided east group to actually vote out ALPA

The award was so lopsided that ALPA changed its policy with regard to mergers and seniority lists; an "oops, we didn't know this might happen knee-jerk response"

The award was so lopsided, it has set groundbreaking standards for a seniority list not being implemented. It actually used suppositions with regard to its award logic, it gave the top 500+ spots to one side, it gave one side immediate access to widebody global flying, it gave a 4 month pilot immediate access to a captain seat. Awards since then have made dispensation for all.

Make no mistake, there are plenty of pilots watching from the outside who do NOT agree with the award at all. The only difference is that it did not happen to them, yet another reason for the advance of USAPA. While all pilots would like to point fingers at the USAir pilots, USAPA is a product of all of us. USAPA is about survival, something the America West pilots have NEVER undertaken. USAPA is a product of the lack of unity, and the lack of definitive action on the part of ALPA national.

FAR more damage has been done by SWAPA in the history of our airlines. Talk about a group that serves nobody but themselves!!! America West was along the same lines. These groups are the reason for the deterioration in the quality of the life of the airline pilot. USAir had been part of the gold standard. They did their part.

SWAPA, America West, Spirit, Virgin America, Allegiant, jetblue, regionals are all examples of failed policy at the national union level. Now, we work more for less. We have essentially lost a defined retirement. Medical benefits are lagging in a profession where health is paramount. Work rules have slid backwards. Retirement age has been raised in an industry which crosses multiple time zones, works 16 hour days, and continuously walks a fine line of safety.

While you condemn the USAir pilots to scabdom, at least have the balls to admit that you got a windfall at their expense. Otherwise, you wouldn't be spending so much money to preserve it, and thus continue the windfall at the AA pilot's expense. Funny how that excerpt is now removed from National's policy. Only a fool would believe that a crummy airline in the desert--who's routes have largely been abandoned and whom was 1/3 owned by the government :erm:--came in and saved the day by pulling an airline heavily based in the population center of america back from the brink. Laughable to say the least, especially when you see what the airline looks like today.

The award meets NO test of objective fairness, except to keep the two airlines' apart and fenced. Perhaps those pesky east pilots are rats, but look what happens when you corner one.

Sounds about right. Typical "Gold Standard" East pilot response. Check your facts.

 

[PuffDriver]

Sounds about right. Typical "Gold Standard" East pilot response. Check your facts.

Only I'm not an east pilot. Typical red herring response. Check YOUR facts

 

[Carl S.]

PuffDriver, your rant has so many errors where do we start? Still listening to those USAPA updates? Be prepared for some bad news soon if we wrap this up 9/24...

 

[reepicheep]

The airline based in the population center of America couldn't make money. Flying commuter routes with a legacy model didn't work. And still doesn't, probably; not if you factor out the tremendous cost advantage they have enjoyed with bankruptcy-era labor contracts. Good luck American, you're gonna need it.

 

[PuffDriver]

PuffDriver, your rant has so many errors where do we start? Still listening to those USAPA updates? Be prepared for some bad news soon if we wrap this up 9/24...

Apparently, you start nowhere, or you would have. I'll prep myself for bad news on the 24th, although it has nothing to do with me. I'm sure the American pilots will be prepping to get reamed on the SLI since they are in bankruptcy. Or perhaps that dog won't hunt twice in arbitration. Perhaps some real fences might just do the trick, if NIC has learned his lesson with the lack of fences.

USAPA is like an aircraft accident. Everyone says "Whoops, never saw that coming!!!" Then the rules change to prevent a reoccurrence. You can make up whatever facts suit your argument. I really don't care. The heart of the matter is what it is, the rest is just eyewash.

 

[PuffDriver]

The airline based in the population center of America couldn't make money. Flying commuter routes with a legacy model didn't work. And still doesn't, probably; not if you factor out the tremendous cost advantage they have enjoyed with bankruptcy-era labor contracts. Good luck American, you're gonna need it.

You may very well be right. We will never know the real story, and neither did the arbitrator. You can say the same about America West. Perhaps they both should have gone away. Perhaps Delta should have in its BK as well, or United, or CAL.

Thank you for clarifying my point. There is no gold standard for which you can merge a seniority list that isn't subjective other than the date which everyone was hired. That is the day that they threw their hat into the airline ring. Politics, agendas, book cooking, fences all have a way of distorting the facts to suit the eye of the beholder.

Normally it ends up fairly ok, but not this time. Now we have gone off the grid. I just find it interesting that everyone has "facts" to skew their perception of fairness, when they really aren't facts. One thing is for sure, pilots have little to nothing to do with the financial success of their company. They have everything to gain by trying to take advantage of other pilot groups. Thus, the slow division and demise of our profession continues.

 

[Flybywire44]

You may very well be right. We will never know the real story, and neither did the arbitrator. You can say the same about America West. Perhaps they both should have gone away. Perhaps Delta should have in its BK as well, or United, or CAL.

Thank you for clarifying my point. There is no gold standard for which you can merge a seniority list that isn't subjective other than the date which everyone was hired. That is the day that they threw their hat into the airline ring. Politics, agendas, book cooking, fences all have a way of distorting the facts to suit the eye of the beholder.

Normally it ends up fairly ok, but not this time. Now we have gone off the grid. I just find it interesting that everyone has "facts" to skew their perception of fairness, when they really aren't facts. One thing is for sure, pilots have little to nothing to do with the financial success of their company. They have everything to gain by trying to take advantage of other pilot groups. Thus, the slow division and demise of our profession continues.

Can you imagine if US Airways and America West had liquidated?

Gosh, count your blessings folks! East and West all lucky to be employed!

On top of that your jobs already pay much more than the national average! :beer:

 

[Turtle21]

You are going to base your entire belief about her decisions from the bench from a few comments from transcripts? Do you not see what is about to happen here?

All of you need a serious come to jesus discussion with your lawyers.

You are so right. She never meant any of those things she said, so its obvious what she really meant, and what she will really do.

 

[71driver]

Date of hire???!!! What? Date of hire is not "relative" period...Unless of course you're an 18 year plus US Airway FO pre merger then of course you try your best to find someone...anyone that can will buy your BS story about a date of hire intergration. Weekends off, Vacation, reserve versus line holder, and upgrades are based on RELATIVE because it's umm relative.......pathetic. As I said to a former US Airways Pilot y'all were always going to have a hard time intergrating with another airline because of your years and years of stagnation.